This thread exists to discuss British politics.
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Recent political stuff:
- The vote to see if Britain should adopt Alternative Voting has failed.
- Lib Dems lose lots of councils and councillors, whilst Labour make the majority of the gains in England.
- The Scottish National Party do really well in the elections.
A link to the BBC politics page containing relevant information.
Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 3rd 2023 at 11:15:30 AM
Oh, bother.
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
Hmm, I suppose I'll take your word for it. I'm certainly not going to doubt the power of Irrational Hatred and scapegoating and their influence on elections — we elected fucking Trump.
Yeah, any gains the Independence movement made after the Brexit vote (myself among them, I have a lot of family south of the border that I'm probably never speaking to again), have been dulled by anti-EU voters that think Westminster is the better of two evils.
Personally, I hope the referendum is blocked by Westminster until after the next Holyrood election. I can't see any vote for independence passing in the next couple of years, and time is the one thing I think the Independence movement might have on it's side judging by the demographics.
"Too. Much. Clutter."
Wouldn't bet on it. A lot of the consequences of Brexit will become more and more obvious. Especially since the negotiations have barely begun and are already in some sort of stand-off. Britain wants to negotiate news deal, now, the EU wants the money Britain owes, clearing up the situation of the EU citizens who are hit by Britain leaving and finalize the divorce before discussing anything.
(Avatar by Coffee)
Tangential question: I assume that there aren't any pro-Brexit posters in this thread?
The voice of thy brother's blood crieth unto me from the ground
It seems a reasonable assumption.
use political terms to describe, not insult
It doesn't seem likely there would be any brexiteers here, based on demographics (TVTropes leans younger, center-left and educated, which are the heaviest remain demographics).
edited 31st Mar '17 6:19:46 AM by IFwanderer
1 2 We are what we pretend to be, so we must be careful about what we pretend to be. -KV
And Brexit supporters tend to be xenophobes, of the kind that don't last long on this forum.
Politics is the skilled use of blunt objects.
Flanker might be Pro-Brexit, I can't remember. He's not hugely active however. In general yes, Brexit supporters tend to hold views that get them quickly banned from OTC.
(Avatar by Coffee)
I asked him elsewhere. The answer is, roughly:
- He'd have voted Remain if he could've.
- Now that it's happening, the best course of action is to maximise the positive outcomes and mitigate the negative effects.
- He did try to play Devil's Advocate because he felt that the debate in this thread was becoming a bit too one-sided.
So no, I don't think he's a Brexiter, and w.r.t. that last point, I can see why he said that; this thread has no Brexiter presence, and all of the posters here seem to be of a rather like mind about it (Britain's going to hell, basically).
The voice of thy brother's blood crieth unto me from the ground
There are no Brexiteers, thus an echo chamber easily generates (and leads to low-quality/redundant/circlejerk-y/bitter sarcastic posts from time to time).
Sounds like you (general you) are gonna need a devil's advocate. Maybe I'll take on that role, if you want.
Flanker was also the only (or one of a very, very few) Conservative British troper here, right?
edited 31st Mar '17 8:01:02 AM by Quag15
I can certainly understand this...it's what usually happens to me in the Representation discussions, because I am one of the more moderates there and less prone to screaming "racism! Sexism!!!!!" immediately because I prefer to give a movie the benefit of the doubt.
(Avatar by Coffee)
Centre-right, according to him, yeah. Which means that compared to most of the frequent posters here he's basically Aryeh Eldad.
Depends on the country...IE a German centre-right would be considered a liberal nuisance in US terms....
Oh, bother.
I've tried looking at things from the pro-Brexiter side. It's just that, when you get rid of the xenophobia and the lies...there's not that much to support Brexit. Even the whole "but democracy" argument against the EU rings hollow since the Tories had no qualms forcing Theresa May on the UK without a vote after Cameron went Screw This, I'm Outta Here
I guess there's the whole TTIP thing, but that didn't end up happening anyway.
edited 31st Mar '17 8:32:19 AM by M84
Disgusted, but not surprised
True...but I can see the perspective of "we need to make the best of this mess".
Oh, bother.
Except damage control may end up being a herculean task. Two years is really not enough time to wade through everything that needs to be renegotiated. Then there's the EU nationals still in the UK. The British nationals in the rest of Europe. The money the UK owes the EU. The treaty that disarmed the IRA which relied on being in the EU. The vast number of regulations and laws that need to be altered now that the EU isn't involved. And the trade deals. So many trade deals. Oh, and the City is starting to jump ship.
Let's not forget that the UK has little in the way of leverage to make negotiations more favorable for them. And that none of the actually qualified negotiators they have want to touch this mess with a ten-meter pole. And that the EU's negotiator is a Frenchman who wants to do everything in French.
I wouldn't be surprised if hedge funds aka "vulture" funds show up to exploit the situation. Try asking Puerto Rico how well that works out.
This is going to be like trying to put out an electrical fire with one leaky bucket (you're not supposed to use water on an electrical fire).
IMHO, the "best case" is only going to happen if the EU is in a forgiving and charitable mood.
I don't think the EU is in a forgiving and charitable mood.
edited 31st Mar '17 9:05:45 AM by M84
Disgusted, but not surprised
(Avatar by Coffee)
Well, trying to make the best out of it is ways better than giving up and letting Murdoch the Boogymonster run rampart, no?
Oh, bother.
Sadly, there doesn't seem to be much the UK citizens can do but hope that their negotiators are up to the challenge and that the EU's negotiators are sympathetic.
As for Murdoch...aside from not watching his networks or buying his papers, what else can be done?
edited 31st Mar '17 9:08:38 AM by M84
Disgusted, but not surprised
He's won. The Tories are routinely terrified of him. Have been for decades.
edited 31st Mar '17 9:08:35 AM by Euodiachloris
Spain's potential veto was contained in a leaked draft document setting out the European Union's Brexit negotiating strategy.
It said no agreement on the EU's future relationship with the UK would apply to Gibraltar without the consent of Spain.
In response, Conservative MP Andrew Rosindell said there would be "no compromise" and fellow Tory Bob Neill tweeted "no sell out".
Spain has long contested Britain's 300 year-rule of Gibraltar but Gibraltarians rejected the idea of the UK sharing control with Spain in a vote in 2002.
In a referendum, the approximately 30,000 residents of "The Rock" voted by 99% to 1% to reject the concept of dual sovereignty.
However, this did not put an end to the issue, with Spain continuing to press its territorial claim and periodic incidents heightening tensions between the two countries.
In the wake of June's referendum - in which Gibraltar voted by a margin of 96% to 4% to remain in the EU - Spain's then foreign minister José Manuel García-Margallo suggested shared sovereignty could allow Gibraltarians to maintain some of the benefits of EU membership and enable Spain to "plant its flag" there.
But Alfonso Dastis, who replaced Mr García-Margallo, struck a more conciliatory tone in January.
He said Spain would not put Gibraltar - which joined the EU at the same time as the UK in 1973 - at the centre of the negotiations and Gibraltar would be free to leave the EU if it wishes.
In its draft Brexit negotiating guidelines - which have yet to be approved by all member states - the European Council identified future arrangements for Gibraltar as one of its 26 core principles.
This really should have been predictable.
Knowledge is Power, Guard it Well
Oh, bother.
Ah yes, I forgot to mention Spain and Gibraltar. Thanks.
It was. "Project Fear" did. <_<
Fear? Of what Reality is going to throw in our direction, maybe. 
edited 31st Mar '17 9:11:38 AM by Euodiachloris
Oh, bother.
The way the Brexit campaign went about their business, I'm surprised they didn't promise free Shetland ponies.
Disgusted, but not surprised
(Avatar by Coffee)
@Euo: so you're gonna go belly up and wallow in self pity while the house burns around you, gotcha.
The voice of thy brother's blood crieth unto me from the ground
Of course, the possibility that Scotland might not get into the EU will certainly be played up in order to persuade would-be Yes voters that it isn't worth it. That happened last time and will be an even bigger argument this time.
This works both ways, including guaranteeing that Brexit supporters will vote No. And they will. Almost nobody who voted for Brexit will vote Yes, regardless of how they feel about Westminster and how they voted last time, because the EU are the Bigger Bad. As far as Brexit supporters are concerned, the EU is ultimately behind everything, including the problems caused by Westminster. Westminster themselves will claim exactly the same, and that that once the EU is gone, they will be giving Scotland a much fairer deal.
Personally, I think that's bollocks, but it's a persuasive argument that can't be comprehensively disproven yet because it's all theoretical, and remember that logic, common sense and practicalities do not factor into the discussion (on either side, admittedly, as the oil issue proves).
There is simply no basis in fact or reality for the notion that Brexit voters will ever vote Yes. The SNP and Greens have both tied their colours to the EU mast, for better or worse, and the association is effectively permanent. That gives them support but also massive opposition.
Wyld Chyld and I are right here. Please do not make the mistake of underestimating how much vitriolic hatred exists here for the EU, including in Scotland itself, and how little Westminster's own faults are considered to matter in the context of that. Westminster could institute a policy of burning orphanages for fun and somehow it would become the EU's fault.