Was Jesus' life limited by the time and place he lived in?

(In case it matters, I am an agnostic and have not read the bible. I'm sorry if I make any factual errors. Please point them out, as I love to get more knowledgeable about these things.)

One can draw all kinds of conclusions about how a Christian should live their life based on the example by Jesus. I mean, one can disregard some, or even most, of the Old Testament stuff because the New Testament overrides it, but I doubt anyone acknowledges Jesus as the Messiah and then disagrees with him about values.

So... a friend of mine (I trust he'll read this thread, so hi to him) believes that because the Twelve Apostles were all men, women should not be priests. My argument against this is that in the culture of the time, women were not taken seriously in religious matters, so Jesus couldn't pick them without losing credibility. I admittedly went for the strawman argument by saying that Jesus must have had something against modern technology because he chose to not conjure up an iPod in his spare time, and therefore a true Christian must forsake every technological advance since His life.

But anyways, a Messiah isn't limited by the culture of 1st century Judeah. Or is he?

I want to hear people's thoughts on this subject, since I find it interesting to think of.

Well isn't the Muslim argument that he wasn't the Messiah, but merely the prophet of that age? (and thus limited by his own time period arguably.) Speaking of which, its been a while since we've had a prophet of any shape or form for any major religion...

(Agnostic here.)

edited 26th Apr '11 4:44:14 PM by GameChainsaw

The messiah, a messiah, I dunno, the only difference is really how offended you are by him being drawn in a dress.

That is, in my opinion, true. Jesus picked only men for the 12 because it just wasn't done to teach women. However, his wider band of followers included many women - quite a few of these were probably quite wealthy people who supported him financially.

And then there are stories where Jesus went against the customs of the time in regard to women - for example, he allowed Mary of Bethany to sit at his feet and listen to him, which was the place a rabbi's students usually sat.

I pretty much think that he was restricted by his time in that A, he had to convince people to follow him an B, God didn't want to force us to move along quickly.

I currently believe that female Priests are fine, but I previously believed that although God would almost certainly approve gender equality we shouldn't ordain female Priests as we would still be assuming that this was what He wanted. And I still think that is an interesting discussion.

And he saved a prostitute from being stoned to death by showing the executioners that no one is sinless.

In any case, who actually picked the twelve apostles? Was it Jesus who picked them or were they picked out by later writers?

Jesus was already pretty radical for the time he lived in. He was pretty quick to point out that women were often correct in many situations or should have been given more respect. Just because he didn't have female disciples doesn't mean he didn't think women were worthy, it's just that many of the women at that time were either too young to travel like he did or were already mothers and supporting children and couldn't travel with them. Why not conjure up bread and traveling supplies for such people to allow them to come along? Well, I recommend looking up the phrase "Take up your cross".

Why not conjure up ipods or such? Well, I'm sure that one, it'd be distracting from the overall message, alienating since it was stated that Jesus was just human like the rest of us with the exception of when he does a miracle to help someone else, and what use would an ipod have? Or anything that runs on electricity? Last I checked, the Bible said Jesus came for one purpose, to help the people become more holy and moral and having better technology has no effect on that.

EDIT: Jesus apparently picked a series of apostles that weren't necessarily moral people but would be able to follow him on the journey and taught them along the way. The writers of pretty much the entire second testament were apparently the apostles.

edited 26th Apr '11 4:59:21 PM by Usht

Well, just because Jesus saved a woman doesn't necessarily mean he wanted equal rights to women in religious matters.

As I said, it was just a strawman argument, taking the "Jesus didn't have X, so we shouldn't have X" thinking to its logical limit.

In more sensible terms, I also argued that going by my friend's logic, because none of the Apostles were crippled, gay or black, those three groups should also be denied priesthood.

edited 26th Apr '11 5:02:48 PM by Kerrah

Well, don't have a Bible on hand, but is anyone here familiar with the donation collection story? Basically, Jesus and his apostles put together a collection for the poor so they'd have money to buy the necessities. Rich men and women kept coming up and putting in large sums of money to look good. Men and women of the middle class did the same, though with less money. Then a beggar woman comes up with a child in hand and puts in a meager two silver before Jesus stops the entire thing and calls her the kindest person there for putting in all of her money that she had and so he felt that she would could be better trusted to spend the money properly and gave her the entire basket. Woman, more moral just because she didn't cling to Earthly possessions.

How about when Jesus is carrying the cross to the place where he will be crucified. During that time, a woman named Veronica comes up to him and wipes his face clean of the sweat and blood that had cumulated there. He was again quick to point out her kindness.

There's many more examples where Jesus praises women for their wisdom or a similarly desirable trait, so it's not like he considered them beneath being able to hold responsibilities. Chalk it up to everyone else at the time still having lop sided morals and being slow to adjust to what Jesus told.

Another story - A woman who had been bleeding non-stop for months came to Jesus, and he touched her and healed her, even Jewish beliefs were that women who were menstruating were unclean and not to be touched.

He sounds like a good guy. Was he a commie or what?

The story about Jesus's life is certainly limited.

Jesus has at least one prominent female disciple in the Bible, Mary Magdalene. Obviously she's not traditionally listed amongst the 12 Apostles, but she was the first one to see Him after the Ressurection.

Okay Love, let's not bring economics or government into a discussion about Jesus's life unless we're decide to talk about one of the passages about one of those topics.

@ Bobby: That's one of my major complaints with my church. I mean, how dare they say that women aren't fit for the role of spreading the good news when the very first person ever to do so was female?

"True compassion is more than flinging a coin to a beggar; it is not haphazard and superficial. It comes to see that an edifice that produces beggars needs restructuring."

-Martin Luther King

He was a radical from what I hear. It is a valid question, even in this context. Besides, it was a joke. Though, I am very curious about this.

edited 26th Apr '11 5:42:38 PM by LoveHappiness

I mean not to derail this but I doubt Jesus was white in the western world sense either, more likely a more arabic skin tone, and not western bone features. (There are some theories/arguments that he may have been black.)

"none of the Apostles were crippled, gay or black"

Didn't Jesus cure all the cripples he met or something? Maybe Jesus was gay and black too.

Jesus was Galilean. What do you think Galileans looked like?

Of roughly what we might call middle eastern descent, rather than white.

Bingo. Unless there was a significant black Jewish population in Galilee in the 1st century, black Jesus is just wishful thinking.

Here are the two primary reasons why Jesus is depicted as white in Europe:

• You can only draw what you know. I distinctly remember seeing an Anglo-Saxon manuscript illumination of David and Goliath wearing Anglo-Saxon clothes and having a Germanic appearance.
  • That and the image of your own people is the image you're most likely to identify with. This is probably why the image of black Jesus is so popular.
• In places where one would have seen Jews, they were hated, so the Roman Catholics disassociated Jesus from them by not making him look Jewish.

edited 26th Apr '11 6:36:00 PM by annebeeche

Given that the area was a crossroads for 3 continents, attempting to ascribe a particular race or genetic profile to Jesus is about as futile as trying to find his birth certificate.

The Galilleans were looked down on by Judeans for having mixed blood, so Jesus likely wasn't one single ethnicity but several. As for skin color, I doubt he was significantly light or significantly dark, though.

Random thought: I once procured a dummy copy of a blank birth certificate and wrote it out for Jesus. It was fun.

edited 26th Apr '11 6:40:04 PM by annebeeche

If you came today

you could have reached a whole nation

Isreal in 4 B.C.

had no mass communication

Obligatory Jesus Christ Superstar lyrics, sorry.

But I've heard talk about Judas possibly being Ethiopian. While at first it sounds racist it could actually happen: the two countries aren't too far away and he could have been a merchant.

edited 26th Apr '11 6:53:49 PM by Erock

I thought it was generally agreed he was a carpenter.