Marilyn Monroe and Real Women Never Wear Dresses

Okay, I was in AP US History today, and this was brought up. In The '50s, my AP teacher taught, Marilyn Monroe was held up as the image of ideal womanhood, and was thus the image that the early feminists were rebelling against.

...WHAT? This just sounds like a massive case of Real Women Never Wear Dresses to me. Marilyn Monroe worked very hard, and smiled through years of emotional pain in order to get where she was. She was told to "learn secretarial work or get married" at one point. And she said "screw it" and decided to become an actress.

But I guess, here, we're contrasting her with the completely desexualized image of the early '50's feminist, like Betty Friedan. Which brings me to another point: Why do some people think that a good woman role model has to be asexual? It's not like this is an isolated instance here. Pauline Reage got flack from feminists for the kinky interests in her book, and almost every female celebrity today gets flack at some point for being "oversexed," and therefore a bad role model.

Why is it assumed that a good woman role model must be asexual and indifferent to men?

It's backlash against the wholly sexist expectation that a good woman was sexually submissive, passive and receptive toward male advances (and held up by the sexist media as a conventionally feminine figure) - backlash that perhaps went too far in the other direction and became restrictive and sexist itself, ho ho irony. It was a destructive, unrealistic image that feminists took issue with (and still do), the struggles and feelings of the people behind it notwithstanding. Pretty characteristic of cultural movements.

...Is this really not obvious to you, Leigh, or are you playing devil's advocate again?

edited 21st Apr '11 10:35:26 AM by Penguin4Senate

Most likely the feminists of that era were ugly-as-sin, Gollum-esque creatures, and were jealous of Monroe being hot.

It's a classic case of haters gonna hate.

So am I allowed to go put on a pretty dress and then stomp in the face of the next guy I see?

They may have been pressured into it, for one, and even if they haven't been, sexualized presentation is still very much associated with objectification, as the two tend to be marketed together. If you're an impressionable 10-year-old, Miley Cyrus's whirling glitter bra/stripper pole combo is going to send the same message regardless of whether it's shallow pandering, fully voluntary artistic expression or a stab at self-aware parody.

edited 21st Apr '11 10:31:29 AM by Penguin4Senate

^^ If I can do the same, yes.

Don't forget the perception of Marilyn Monroe and the reality of Marilyn Monroe are two different things.

I have noticed that most of the time, the people bitchin' about a female celebrity looking sexy are other women. That'd be like men complaining that Jason Statham is in such great shape, physique-wise, in the action movies he's in.

To me it smacks of jealousy, really.

@Mark: Epic.

Eh, sounds like an oversimplification of what women think, believe, and see themselves as, but that's just me.

edited 21st Apr '11 11:21:08 AM by Usht

Maybe it is. But then again, women as a whole don't have unified system of beliefs, views, and opinions, and neither do men. It's a veritable nebula of differing and conflicting opinions and thoughts; I find it easier to make a humorous(or snide/cynical, depending on your views) simplification and go on about my day.

edited 21st Apr '11 11:28:12 AM by MarkVonLewis

Eh, I think in general, when women bitch about overly skinny celebrities, its either because 1) she's unhealthily skinny, yet held up as the pinnacle attractiveness, sending the message that gilrs should starve themselves if they want men to find them attractive, or 2) they were stuck in a movie or something where it's clear that the only purpouse they serve is to look pretty, and I don't think I need to explain why this is a problem.

Of course, then you have people going too far and assuming that any attractive woman in a movie was just cast for her looks. Once bitten, twice shy, I suppose.

I'm a guy and I think the unhealthy skinny = beauty is stupid as sin.

Honestly I kind of like girls with a bit of extra. Not fat, but some gals who were just built a little bigger but stay in great shape. That's absolutely sexy.

With the exception of models and the "famous-just-for-being-famous-and-spending-60%-of-their-time-in-rehab" crowd, there aren't that many famous female celebrities who seem unhealthily skinny. Not that we couldn't do with more diverse body types.

I guess it's because sexy = 'desirable to men' in most people's eyes, and dressing to please men is a bad thing.

Although most women, as far as I know, don't dress for men, they dress for other women.

I could have sworn that second-wave feminism was in response to the monotony and ennui of being a housewife and a demand for better work, not because Marilyn Monroe was a sex symbol...

I'm not really seeing how dressing to please men is bad. Hell I often dress to please women and throw on my suit.

To me the whole issue seems to people over-reacting and making a proverbial mountain out of a molehill.

edited 21st Apr '11 4:36:59 PM by MarkVonLewis

It's not bad exactly, people can dress however they want... but it's bad if it becomes expected. As in, "This is the pinnacle of womanhood, and she dresses sexily because that's what men want to see. If you don't dress like that, you are a less-than-ideal woman."

It's just as bad as how virginhood and purity was held up as the ideal for womanhood.

Dude, just give up. Women are terrified of sharks, a shark with a suit on is still a shark.

Even if you polish a turd and wrap it up in a bow, it's still a turd wearing a bow.

"I have noticed that most of the time, the people bitchin' about a female celebrity looking sexy are other women."

I'm a woman, and I like me a sexy looking female celebrity as much as anyone - it's eye candy, why the fuck wouldn't I? If I'm paying $13 for a movie, I damn better not be bombarded with the ugly. But there is a very broad line between sexy and sexualized, and the latter carries implications of exploitation and objectification and sexism. You can look sexy without exposing your cleavage to the world (in fact, I'd argue that in every public scenario, revealing looks trashy and desperate rather than attractive), and the sooner the mainstream media quits embracing a teenage boy's idea of what sexy should look like, the more realistic our beauty standards and attitudes toward sexuality will become.

edited 21st Apr '11 4:50:47 PM by kashchei

Ah, okay makes some sense. Still think people are blowing it outta proportion, but...

And Barkey, that's a shame women don't like sharks - we're pleasing to the touch. It's probably that asshole Jaws that gave us all a bad name.

"Still think people are blowing it outta proportion, but..."

Are you a woman? Do you know how much pressure there is on a woman to look good? Or, at any rate, to think that she looks good because she's invested in the right clothes and the right makeup, whatever her actual appearance may be?

Nah, it's the fact that sharks can never stop moving. Some women want you to just stay still, if only for a minute.

Anyway, I agree with English Ivy. You can't just point a finger at a single celebrity and say they're responsible for a cultural shift.

No, but there's pressure on me as a man to be all musclebound and fit and such.

And I don't care about right clothes or makeup, really. I'll think a chick looks good if she looks good to me.

edited 21st Apr '11 4:57:24 PM by MarkVonLewis