"Aggressive" atheism versus "gentle" atheism...

The point is, when even as something as gentle as that which is referred to in the article is complained about, it just goes to show that when you give a fanatically religious mouse a cookie, said fanatically religious mouse will ask for a glass of milk.

I understand the point, and I agree with it but such rhetoric won't win anyone over.

Is using "Julian Assange is a Hillary butt plug" an acceptable signature quote?

I'm a Deist who is a firm believer in the Clockwork Universe Theory.

I'll be over here in my corner, watching this whole zoo tear itself apart over shit that doesn't matter.

edited 16th Apr '11 10:39:07 PM by Barkey

As if gentler rhetoric would?

Also, do the ends of winning people over justify the means of sugar-coating what is simply true?

edited 16th Apr '11 10:42:00 PM by neoYTPism

Why do some atheists see the need to convert people? Or is that another topic?

There's no justice in the world and there never was~

Well, this one is not an atheist and is not into converting anyone (conversion is one of the most cruel things to wish upon anyone, in my opinion), but still that is understandable. Some atheists consider the behaviour promoted by some religious beliefs dangerous.

If we disagree, that much, at least, we have in common

^^

Perhaps for the same reasons that followers of monotheistic religions seem to often have an overriding urge to convert people?

@Beholderess Well, why not attempt to stop the behavior? Changing someone into an atheist may not necessarily stop them from engaging in a negative practice or they could exchange one bad practice for another.

@Barkey Seeing as how atheism is not a religion, that is unlikely.

edited 16th Apr '11 10:52:14 PM by KCK

There's no justice in the world and there never was~

^

The same could be said on the other side of the fence too. Making someone into a Christian isn't going to make them suddenly stop something, even if the religion says they should not. There are plenty of Christians who go against the grain and do things the religion tells them they shouldn't, or even all the things the religious right in the US tries to convince people not to do "because Jesus" that are never mentioned in the bible.

Human beings are still human beings. I have not noticed a great discrepancy in the tendency to want others to share beliefs whether they be ones of religious faith, dietary preference, television shows, automobile choice or sports participation.

@KCK

Because to stop one rom behaving certain way, it is important to remove the justification for said behaviour. If one is using faith as justification, and if that alone is enough, then just how one can be dissuaded from it without removing the very foundation?

It is possible to present a countless number of convincing arguments, but for some people, "[Deity] said so" is enough to thump it all. How does one reason with them but by persuading them that there is no [Deity]?

Again, not saying that this is the case with all believers, but let's face it, both sides become rather jaded after encountering the fanatics of others side, and are not willing to extend the benefit of doubt any further.

Also, for some atheists theistic beliefs are just inconceivably absurd. If you've met a man who is sincerely and absolutely sure that the moon is made of yellow cheese, would you not try to change their mind and attempt to make them see reason?

Again, not saying that theistic belief is that absurd - only that this is how it is seen from atheistic side.

edited 16th Apr '11 11:02:01 PM by Beholderess

If we disagree, that much, at least, we have in common

@Barkey I would agree with you, which is the one of the reasons I don't like to attempt to convert people.

I would rather they actually be educated past the "salvation" aspect.

@Beholderess I admit that reasoning does make sense from their perspective.

edited 16th Apr '11 11:05:03 PM by KCK

There's no justice in the world and there never was~

@Neo: People got angry because atheists exist, you don't need to call such a thing a theocracy, you call it absurd and hateful.

Is using "Julian Assange is a Hillary butt plug" an acceptable signature quote?

And I admit that theistic attempts at conversion make a lot of sense from their perspective. If one sees a car speeding along the lane towards the chasm, would it not be reasonable to do everything in one's power to make the driver stop? Seriously, I can understand it, annoying as it is to me.

Still, this one is not interested in conversion nor in converting anyone. This one is not that cruel. Breaking the very foundation of someone's worldview is very painful, and is a sure way to send someone into existential crisis. If people do it themselves and face such pain in attempt to find their truth, I applaud them. But I do not wish it upon anyone.

If we disagree, that much, at least, we have in common

But why, exactly, does it bother atheists that people believe in God? I mean... religous people who go out evangelising might believe that if they don't all these people will go to hell. An atheist isn't trying to save people from hell or anything like that, because they don't believe in it.

A person believing in God, provided it's not a violent religion, does no harm to anybody. Why does it bother an atheist so? It's not like there are any consequences for believing in God if he doesn't exist.

Be not afraid...

Well, it bothered me, when I was an atheist (and an antitheist), that people were holding irrational beliefs that, I felt, caused them to treat other people badly and to fail to recognise the consequences of actions taken in the real world (as opposed to an imagined future perceived to be more real). I was also disturbed by the fact that the God many people worshipped seemed to me to be evil and tyrannical.

I don't feel this way now, but at the time, that was how I felt.

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Well, it does not bother most atheists. But again, would you be absolutely content to just let people believe that the moon is made out of yellow cheese, especially when they infer other properties of moon based on this assumption, and make decisions about NASA programs based on it?

Again, this one does not have any problem with belief, and is not technically an atheist anyway. Only explaining why I think some people might have a problem with it.

This still disturbs me. A lot. But that is related to the particular perception of god by particular people, not with religion - much less theism - in general. Basically, it disturbs this one when people consider god good and holy while at the same time ascribing to it the attitudes and actions that speak not of good but of evil to me. If there is no such contradiction (either people do not consider god good or do not think that he holds an attitude/done an action in question), then I have no problem with it.

edited 16th Apr '11 11:54:03 PM by Beholderess

If we disagree, that much, at least, we have in common

I can understand disliking the actions of believers. But disliking that they hold the belief at all seems... odd.

Be not afraid...

Like Bobby said, it's the perspective that the vocal minority give to the entire group. I'm vehemently against religion, because I was physically, mentally, and sexually abused by members of the Christian religion, and all the other Christians I knew told me that I deserved it.

I personally have a very deep seated loathing for those who dub themselves Christian, and I'm likely to argue that it's a bad thing if they bring it up.

"I don't know how I do it. I'm like the Mr. Bean of sex." -Drunkscriblerian

^^ If somebody you knew believed something which you thought was mistaken - say, that the Earth was flat - and this belief appeared to be causing them to behave irrationally or unpleasantly, wouldn't you try to persuade them to see reason?

edited 16th Apr '11 11:56:15 PM by BobbyG

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If it was something that you could prove was false, then yes. However you can't prove the nonexistence of God any more than you can prove the existence of him.

If it was something that could not be proved either way, it didn't cause them to harm others or themselves, and it made them happy, then I would be fine with it.

Be not afraid...

The problem is, that (in America, at least) it's quite easy to point to the religious right and say "these people are causing harm". My own mother would rather me bleed to death than give me birth control because of her religious convictions.

"I don't know how I do it. I'm like the Mr. Bean of sex." -Drunkscriblerian

Yes, but not all religious folk are that crazy. In the case where it is causing them to harm other people then it makes sense to try and argue them out of it, or at least out of the actions it's causing.

Be not afraid...

Yes, but most religious folk (in the US) that are vocal about their religion tend to be nuts.

I don't argue it unless it's brought up first.

"I don't know how I do it. I'm like the Mr. Bean of sex." -Drunkscriblerian

OK, I'm trying to explain a view that I no longer hold here, so please bear with me if I don't express it altogether clearly.

From the perspective of an antitheist who believes that theism is an irrational conclusion, theism is a "wrong" belief. Not necessarily a factually incorrect belief, you understand, but a belief that has come basically out of superstition and wishful thinking. Atheism is "right", from that perspective, because it doesn't make any irrational assumptions about the way the world works. This perspective assumes, of course, that nobody actually feels God's presence or anything like that, and that people who believe that they do are mistaken.

Furthermore, from the perspective of such an antitheist, these "wrong" beliefs may well be seen to be causing harm to others, as many Christians (for example, that is - I'm using Christianity here because I'm familiar with it, not out of a particular dislike of the faith) have been known to argue that their faith is the reason for everything from sexism, to homophobia, to full blown holy wars.

For the record, I don't think Christians are nuts. I go to church myself, and many of my friends are Christian. But I can definitely sympathise with that particular antitheist viewpoint, having once held it myself.

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