Unions (labour and otherwise)

edited 25th Nov '12 3:58:47 PM by JosefBugman

When you said "virtually anything", I assumed you meant virtually anything.

Fight smart, not fair.

Well, I *do* approve of unions employing ethically questionable tactics against the bosses. Fight fire with fire, I sat,

If the bosses are not afraid of the workers, they demand control over their personal lives, cut their wages, remove their benefits and worsen their working conditions.

Businessowners must be kept very, very afraid, if the working class is to live well.

edited 13th Apr '11 3:03:56 AM by SavageHeathen

You exist because we allow it and you will end because we demand it.

I think the best approach is if the unions and the businesses are the same thing. Of course, the true CMOA comes when existing businesses fire the bosses and the owners.

Eric,

@Eric: That's EXACTLY the thing that I have in mind. Abolish the State, so it doesn't protect the Rich. Let the workers seize and own the companies. Anarcho-syndicalism FTW.

edited 13th Apr '11 4:51:00 AM by SavageHeathen

You exist because we allow it and you will end because we demand it.

edited 25th Nov '12 3:58:58 PM by JosefBugman

All unions should in my opinion be banned. Private businesses should be free to fire anyone who is apart of a union and should be free to fire persons who take part in strike action.

edited 13th Apr '11 4:57:56 AM by izumoshep

"Si vis pacem, para bellum"

edited 25th Nov '12 3:59:07 PM by JosefBugman

Because I support the employer not the employee, unions bully and gang up on businesses whether they are small, medium or large.

I'm not American and nor do I view your history with any great enthusiasm.

"Si vis pacem, para bellum"

I'm not Amerian either. And you don't have to view it with "enthusiasm" simply with interest.

And when properly regulated unions don't do that, and if bosses bully and cajole their employee's then why should there not be something to help them?

edited 13th Apr '11 5:13:52 AM by JosefBugman

I was being polite, Americas history started with a bunch of traitors turning against the Crown and Empire. It hasn't gotten any better since.

Employers own the business and should be free to decide how they run their business, if the employees don't like it, they can leave.

edited 13th Apr '11 5:17:12 AM by izumoshep

"Si vis pacem, para bellum"

Thumped for switching the discussion from the topic to a person.

"Had Mother Nature been a real parent, she would have been in jail for child abuse and murder." -Nick Bostrom

If you go back in history unions were brought in to stop rampant abuse of employees and safeguard peoples right to reasonable and safe work. Whether they still do that now can be debated but I've seen more then one company completely fuck over its workers in a way that would be impossible if they were unionized so I'm completely for them.

edited 13th Apr '11 5:19:34 AM by thatguythere47

Is using "Julian Assange is a Hillary butt plug" an acceptable signature quote?

And? England was started by the illigitimate son of a tanner and a knight killing the true king and set fire to London, what of it?

Yes but the problem there is that you then have a lot of dispossesed people around unable to buy things. And why should employers have the right to do that? Just because they "own the business" does not mean that they make the sheet metal, or talk to all the customers, or liase with the logistics people.

What gives them the right?

There are no such thing as workers rights. A private company, should be allowed to fuck over it's workers because it is a "private business". And if the workers don't like it they leave, and than the company realizes that fucking over its workers reduces productivity and profits drop thus they change, simple.

They own it, that's enough for me.

edited 13th Apr '11 5:23:08 AM by izumoshep

"Si vis pacem, para bellum"

Technically speaking, UK history started with a bunch of traitors turning against the Roman Empire.

And of course, Roman history started with a bunch of traitors turning against the Kingdom of Alba Longa and the Latin League.

Just saying.*

edited 13th Apr '11 5:27:35 AM by Carciofus

But they seem to know where they are going, the ones who walk away from Omelas.

Worker's have rights, like the rights to form unions. Deal with it.

Is using "Julian Assange is a Hillary butt plug" an acceptable signature quote?

The UK started when England, Scotland and Ireland joined in Union in 1707, 1400 years after the roman empire fell. England was formed hundreds of years after the end of the roman empire and after the Battle of Hastings around 1066.

Do I have to tell you that rights are legal protections and if a legislation for legal protection hasn't been passed by parliament it doesn't exist. Thus if parliament were to remove such legislation, a worker than has no rights.

edited 13th Apr '11 5:31:41 AM by izumoshep

"Si vis pacem, para bellum"

If you think a worker has no rights, move to China.

Da Rules excuse all the inaccuracy in the world. Listen to them, not me.

Unions (pros)

• Can help workers negotiate higher wages and benefits.
• Can give workers more negotiating power.

Unions (cons)

• Some jobs make union membership mandatory.
• Unions have been known to use dues to contribute to politicians. When combined with mandantory membership, this can result in employees being forced to support a candidate they dislike.
• Sometimes unions stand in the way of incompetent employees being fired. (See teacher's unions.)

Irrelevant distinction. No politician is dumb enough to revoke worker's rights (minus one very dumb one in Wisconsin) and survive the response politically.

Is using "Julian Assange is a Hillary butt plug" an acceptable signature quote?

^^^^ Point. But my argument still stands: every nation started with some sort of rebellion or conquest, or with an unification of states which started that way.

Probably, the closest things to "legitimately founded" nations that ever existed were whatever simple political organizations which were founded by the first humans who colonized a territory for the first time ever, but good luck finding any of them now.

But they seem to know where they are going, the ones who walk away from Omelas.

The Australian Liberal and National parties are anti-union and have taken away workers rights on many occasions and receive more votes at elections than the pro-union Labor party.

Rebellions are different to conquests. The USA was formed from a rebellion, England was formed from conquest. The two are distinct and I would feel differently had the French conquered America than set up the USA.

edited 13th Apr '11 5:52:49 AM by izumoshep

"Si vis pacem, para bellum"

@Savage Heathen: Anarcho-syndicalism IS statist, without the state, it simply wouldn't work. It's not about abolishing the state, it's about putting the state in its people's hands.

And, reciprocally, all union members should be free to shun private businesses who treat them like that. Guess who gets their way in such an environment of fairness? Hint: It's the bigger group.

Eric,

I agree, if people don't want to work for a particular business because they are anti-union they should be free to not work there. But don't complain when you can't find a job.

"Si vis pacem, para bellum"