The World's Largest Fighter Aircraft Competition

Hey, don't hate. Mah necro be havin' skillz.

They're building two in addition to the Russian one they got. A third is on the drawing board.

I hope the didnt base their design for the new ones off of that obsolete Russian thing they bought. It wasnt good for much more than target practice when the Russians sold it.

How many designs to they need? Seems a potential worry in a major conflict, having to juggle the Su-30, the Tejas, the various Dassault products, those ancient MiGs, and the various ex-British kit they still keep around.

Any good articles on the IAF's future planning?

Of course it'd be better to have all your equipment from the same supplier so everything matches but I think carriers are such big and rare things that if you want one you'll be grateful for whatever you can get. India would probably prefer to design and build everything it uses but designing and building a carrier is not easy or cheap and while I'm sure they're pursuing that they'll need something to compete with China until they get to the point where they have their own carriers.

India has two presently operating carriers - the INS Viraat^note Ex-HMS Hermes. and the INS Vikramaditya^note Ex-Admiral Gorshkov - which is one more than the Chinese have, with the Liaoning^note Ex-Varyag. The Indians also launched the INS Vikrant last year, and she is expected to enter service in 2018, which is two years before the first of China's new carriers comes online. There's another one planned, the first of a class, called the Vishal, which will be nuclear-powered and have a CATOBAR launch system.

edited 4th Dec '14 2:25:19 PM by Achaemenid

Vishal, in terms of structural design, is just an upscaled Vikrant which, in turn, takes some cues from the Italian Cavour-class, since some of their engineers consulted with Cochin Shipyard on the project.

As for the aircraft, the Rafale is meant to be the greater bulk of the air force and an all-rounder. All other fighter types fill niche roles. I'm sure once the Marine version of the Rafale becomes ready, the Mi Gs will be be shunted aside (I sort of feel bad for Mikoyan. Even in Russia, it's not doing so well, with Sukhoi being the golden boy).

Part of the reason India overdoes their air force is that the PAF is the one service of Islamabad's that isn't a total slouch (their navy is laughably bad and their army is increasingly incapable of fighting a war of the scale necessary to go toe to toe with India) and its the one service of China's that doesn't have geography working against them.

IDRW and The Diplomat say that Vishal will be CATOBAR and possibly nuclear, as well as 25000 tonnes heavier than Vikrant. Seems considerably more than upscaling, and will definitely be a leap in capability over Vikrant.

Re: Air Forces

All this is true, but one wonders if relying on what must be a very complicated supply situation could hurt the IAF in a potracted engagement. Standardization does have its advantages.

Thats why I said structurally. I don't doubt it is a very different otherwise, but we were talking about overall design and they won't be able to go too nuts either since this would only be the second ship of this scale Cochin Shipyard has ever built. Maybe if it was Laurent and Toubro or Mazagaon....

I do wish they hadn't done it anyway though. Would rather they had done serial production, but India is so obsessed with leapfrogging technologies and even the upscaling will tax the builders...

On the air force, I agree. Hell, that was why the French had a leg up in the competition in the first place, since India is familiar with Dassault in ways they aren't with Saab or Lockheed, etc.

edited 4th Dec '14 5:10:09 PM by FFShinra

I would expect a lot of those miscellaneous types of aircraft will be retired or put on reserve status once the new models come on line.

Reviving this thread because of news:

The original competition has been junked due to the long impasse between Dassault and India.

However, soon after cancelling it, Prime Minister Modi essentially relaunched the competition with the same competitors ans for the same amount of jets. The only difference this time is instead of HAL getting to work with whoever wins, Modi states that the vendor has to find their own Indian partner in the private sector and work out their own deals on liabilities and quality assurance (a big issue in the previous competition because essentially the Government of India wanted Dassault to guarentee the work of the state manufacturer HAL without having any control over how HAL operated). Still must have high To T and offset requirements, but those are less contentious points.

In lieu of this, the US has once again offered the F-16IN (though, interestingly, not the F-18, despite the latter being twin-engine, which is a doctrinal requirement of the IAF).

So thoughts on the F-16IN or possible other contenders?

The F-16 stands no chance at all. Last time they turned down the F-18 primarily for political reasons, considering us an unreliable partner, and that hasn't changed.

Is the Rafael out of it entirely, or can they re-compete? If not, then I'm not sure what they could pick that would meet the original requirements- assuming those haven't changed. The Typhoon's too big, the Gripen's too small, and they don't want another Russian plane (even though the Mig-29 might be perfect for them). Who's left?

Why doesn't the Indian government order more Rafales? There won't be a better deal for India.

They couldnt agree with the French manufacturer regarding the exact conditions of the deal.

Dassault will be allowed to compete again. Honestly, I think its the only reason the deal was relaunched, so Dassault could do it with somewhat less bad (for them) terms. Everyone else is being invited so that Dassault can't take that favor for granted.

I agree though, the F-16 has no chance. Not when Pakistan flies it too (and its single engine). That said, these days (especially under the Modi gov't but also due to recent history having dealt with them for C-130s, P-8 Poseidons, attack choppers, etc.) India is not nearly so suspicious of the US this time, a plus for DC.

Mi G and Eurofighter must be really happy at their prospects though. I imagine the US will get another sweetheart deal as consolation like last time. Perhaps for India's amphibious ship tender....

edited 16th Aug '15 5:25:02 PM by FFShinra

I wonder if they could use/would be interested in the Scorpion?

Looks almost like a trainer or something....

It's supposed to be an entry into the USAF's RFP for it's new light fighter.

You mean the T-X trainer contract?

India already has a light fighter. It's the Tejas, and it's coming along fine. It also has a heavy fighter in the form of a Sukhoi Su-30MKI. What it needs is a medium fighter, and I don't believe the Scorpion counts.

Honestly, apart from the Chinese (who'd obviously never sell to India), I'm not sure there are many more medium fighter models apart from those already in the competition.

Maybe I'm wrong?

Fine? Are you sure?

I'm curious. If India were to pick the F-16 what would Pakistan's response be?

You're so reliably contrarian I was actually expecting you to make that post.

Like I said, it's fine. It's the second fighter they've indigenously developed and the first that is actually likely to see mass production. Expecting zero hiccups would be foolhardy, and because HAL basically does EVERYTHING air related for all Indian military branches, it's almost always stretched thin and thus notoriously slow. But it is progressing without fatal errors (as was the case a few years ago when the Kaveri engine was dead on arrival).

How would Pakistan react? They'd bitch and moan and demand the same Block or better and then told to shut up. Or they'd claim the Chinese will simply give Islamabad top grade equipment. Or that the JF-17 is oh so better than the Tejas.

EDIT-

That said, India will never go for it, not when Pakistan also has them. Both for political pride and because they like knowing that what they shoot down ain't their own aircraft. Also, in the event an Indian F-16 were to be shot down in Pakistan, GHQ could then crib whatever makes the Indian version better and then add it on to their versions at Taxila.

And it's a one-engine jet, which India does not allow in terms of doctrine for medium and above fighter classes.

edited 16th Aug '15 11:14:37 PM by FFShinra

You should have added "it's coming along fine for a HAL-made aircraft".

Is the Gripen competing?

From all I've read, all the former competing companies have been reinvited for the "Make In India" program, but I suspect in Saab's case, its just a formality....unless Modi gets pissed off at HAL or something, in which case Gripen would be a contender (I assume other vendors would offer other singlejets too if that became the case).

EDIT- Why?

edited 17th Aug '15 10:29:56 AM by FFShinra