Do fish feel pain?

So, I just had an interesting class discussion, with a lecturer who did their PHD on the subject. Do fish feel pain?

There's a lot of uncertainty in the scientific community about this, with obvious implications for ethics. It is clear that they can detect pain - they have receptors in their tissues that sense damage to their cells, or the potential for damage. They respond to painful stimuli, by moving to avoid or remove what's causing it.

But is their physical reaction only a reflex? A reflex action is one in which a signal goes from the sensor to the spinal cord, and then a signal comes back resulting in movement. The brain is not involved, and no perception of the pain occurs. For example, when we touch a hot stove, the action of moving away occurs before we know we're in pain.

So, if their response to damage is only a reflex and does not involve their brain at all, can they be said to percieve pain? Many people say no, and in fact in some states in Australia no ethics approval at all is required to do studies involving fish, even incredibly invasive and 'painful' ones.

What is your opinion on this issue? Do fish perceive pain?

edited 23rd Mar '11 10:55:00 PM by LoniJay

Do fish feel pain? Probably. Does it matter? No.

I hope not. I always feel sort of bad when I go fishing on the pier and have to pull the hook out of a live one that I'm going to throw back for being too small.

Course then I just cast off again.

There's a pain circuit that runs through the brain.

Find that in the fish's brain, and you have your answer.

I'd feel a bit bad either way when they are harmed or killed. Still they are tasty fuckers and I gotta eat. They eat other things too. It's just how things work so...eating the damn fish.

That said I do think they feel pain, but I am not positive. I haven't studied fish at all.

edited 23rd Mar '11 11:31:41 PM by Aondeug

Now Crabs.. I want to know if they feel pain, I've done some pretty fucked up shit when I catch them in my net and dump out the small ones and they refuse to be good little crustaceans and crawl off the pier.

Such as a golf swing with a collapsible baton.

<insert STD crabs joke>

I'd guess that they do not, then again I slept through most of biology. You'd think pain would be one of the easier things to test. Stab a fish with a fork and see if he's still freaking out about it after a minute or so. Either way, supper.

-is thinking of Barkey beating someone's crotch with a golf club-

Crabs I am honestly not certain of...I think it's less likely in their case, but I have been amazed before...

No, it isn't actually that simple. It's possible that all their responses to pain are just instinct and reflex, and they don't actually know they're in pain. Or something.

The trouble is, fish brains are pretty different to mammal brains. The cortex, which makes up most of our brain, is a tiny little undeveloped lump on a fish brain. The cortex is where pain is sensed, so if they don't really have one... where is there for the pain signals to go?

We've gotten so far as a species....yet fish brains still stump us. How very amusing. Brains are so damned complex.

It is proven that they do... If you zap them with electricity, they avoid the place... for all of five seconds.

Fish forget.

I don't think it really matters as they're neither intelligent or appealing enough that I am concerned for their well being. On the contrary, they are of enough use scientifically and culinarily (let's pretend that's a word) that I'm quite willing to overlook their plight so long as pain isn't being caused for shits and giggles.

edited 24th Mar '11 1:17:43 AM by Arha

While, admittedly, I know much less about the subject than I'd like, and as a hedonist I would require a lot more careful thought than I've put into this to make any ethical judgements... The most immediate question that comes to mind is, "Why does pain exist?" It looks to me to be an appeal to our intelligence, as reflex seems quite capable of taking care of immediate Bad Things And Booboos well enough. So, if something lacks the ability to learn, then pain likely does it no good. So, test if fish learn to avoid unexpected sources of threat.

Five seconds? Whence originates this claim? I am inclined to assume that the "nine second goldfish memory" or whatever it was is a myth.

edited 24th Mar '11 1:28:54 AM by Garbeld

Nine second goldish memory is indeed false.

As far as I know, fish do feel pain, as do just about every animal with a nervous system. Pain is the reaction we get from coming in contact with something hurty, like a pointy object or a hot stove. It's our brain's way of telling you that the object is dangerous and you shouldn't touch it. If you couldn't feel pain, you could end up accidentally placing your hand on a hot stove and not realizing untill you start to wonder where the smell of the burned meat is coming from. If you poke a fish with a sharp object, it reacts. Therefore it can feel pain. Some people say it's just a reflex, but that's kind of stupid, because feeling pain is in itself a reflecsive action.

Pain is both psychological and physiological. Even if fishes are observed to react to a pain stimulus. How could we know that they consciously regard it as something unpleasant and possibly dangerous. The pain stimulus could simply trigger a reflex action to avoid it, even though they might never thought it to be unpleasant.

edited 24th Mar '11 3:03:14 AM by Blurring

Not true, Ardiente. My lecturer did her PHD on this, and part of her study included seeing if fish could learn to avoid an area of their tank if they were zapped every time they entered it. They did learn, and what's more, they remembered. She tested them five days later, and the lesson stuck.

Trout were willing to cross the zone and endure pain to be with another trout. Goldfish would not cross the zone for anything, not food, not other goldfish, nothing.

I remember listening to a scientist on BBC talk about how they conducted an experiment, where they injected the faces of fish with some stuff that makes your skin burn and feel itchy, and the fish showed VERY clear distress. So yes, fish feel pain.

So... the main consensus is that they do feel pain.

So, is it right that while there are stringent guidelines in most places about what you can and can't do to cats, dogs, and rats in the name of science, there are no restrictions on what you can do to fish?

That's something new to me. So it seems that fish recognise pain.

There are still some scientists who claim that that reaction was still 'just a reflex'. I think they're wrong, personally, but it's increasingly difficult to prove it.

edited 24th Mar '11 3:40:09 AM by LoniJay

If the trout can choose to cross the field, then clearly the pain is mental rather than just a reflex. If it was purely a reflex (ie: chemical stimulus from spinal cord to muscles with no brain involved), then how could they overwrite it? It'd just be a... property of their muscles or something.

Do plants feel pain? Duh, of course they do, they grow toward sources of nutrition (pleasure response) and away from sources of harm (pain response,) you can even use painkillers to inhibit these responses.

What a stupid question, people aren't nice to people because they can feel pain, people are nice to people because each person has unique potential, and gratuitous pain stunts that.

Yes... it does introduce the strange concept that you can do whatever you like to people on painkillers.

Well, something that would cause them pain now is probably going to leave marks that will still feel pain by the time the painkiller wears off. Plus, pain usually means you're in danger of damging yourself, and that won't be stopped by painkillers.