The History Thread!

The History Channel had an episode of Peter Woodward's Conquest where they re-enacted eight gladiator types. Good times.

“Love is the eternal law whereby the universe was created and is ruled.” — St. Bernard

Apparently, today was the day when Greece officially became a republic. Also, lots of other stuff. Does anyone know who Jorden Benson is?

Dunno who Jorden Benson is.

Speaking of Greece history, anyone else think that most other battles between Greece and Persia pretty much lead up to the battle of Salamis?

Never be without a Hat! Hot means heat. I don't care if your usage dates to 1300, it's my word, not yours. My Pm box is open.

randomtropeloser: Not only that, today is the day that the Tokugawa Shogunate was established.

edited 24th Mar '11 2:23:52 PM by Zersk

ᐅᖃᐅᓯᖅ ᐊᑕᐅᓯᖅ ᓈᒻᒪᔪᐃᑦᑐᖅ

@random: Eh, I'll take the Kingdom of Greece over that republic.

INT is knowing a tomato is a fruit. WIS is knowing it doesn't belong in a fruit salad. CHA is convincing people that it does.

Well, you know what they say. Two Proud Warrior Race peoples expanding next to each other with entirely different ideals on many matters. War was pretty much inevitable, and then the rest was history.

Imperium Graecorum for me. *waves labarum like a madman*

edited 24th Mar '11 9:15:26 PM by ArgeusthePaladin

Support Taleworlds!

No, better yet, relive the Eastern Roman Empire.

INT is knowing a tomato is a fruit. WIS is knowing it doesn't belong in a fruit salad. CHA is convincing people that it does.

Bump: The 17th century. Discuss.

INT is knowing a tomato is a fruit. WIS is knowing it doesn't belong in a fruit salad. CHA is convincing people that it does.

More like "Discuss the 30 year and how it stopped Germany from breaking the game of European politics for a couple hundred years until the reunion of the Germanic states much later on."

Support Taleworlds!

As a quarter-Greek, I wholeheartedly support the reestablishment of the Byzantine Empire. We Greeks haven't had much to be proud of since then. Then again, if the Empire was reestablished, then the song Istanbul not Constantinople would no longer make since. Cultural pride or music? Well, the latter had a cover by They Might Be Giants, so I'm going to have to betray my Greek heritage on this one.

https://www.facebook.com/emileunmedicatedanduncut

What the hell? Well fuck that game then. I see no reason why Germany should have been sacrificed on the altar of European peace. Where "peace" usually meant in the 17th and 18th century anyway that European armies all would meet in Germany to make war. Screw that. Why not sacrifice Poland indeed? Oh wait, it was, and apparently nothing of value was lost.

And it's German, not Germanic. Geez. There's a difference. If it were "Germanic states" it would've included England and Scandinavia as well.

edited 27th Mar '11 6:30:11 AM by Octo

Unbent, Unbowed, Unbroken. Unrelated ME1 Fanfic

Hey, now, chill on the nationalism. No use getting into a huff about this sort of thing. Let's all be nice and not incur the wrath of the mods with fevered nationalist wanking that will inevitably lead to a Flame War.

https://www.facebook.com/emileunmedicatedanduncut

Plus, this is the Internet, supposedly beyond nationalistic fervor.

I'd actually throw in my two cents; since 843 until 1945 Strong France = Weak Germany and vice versa, so who had the most to gain with the decline of Habsburg power? The Bourbons!

And the union of Germany did not necessarily guarantee its emergence as the greatest power of them all until industrialization brought its economy to par with the colonial powers.

edited 27th Mar '11 6:38:06 AM by Kinkajou

INT is knowing a tomato is a fruit. WIS is knowing it doesn't belong in a fruit salad. CHA is convincing people that it does.

Heh. Hat tipped off to you for recognising that as the common start point of the squabbling twins, Germany and France ;) Too few do.

And of course the Bourbons had an active and explicit policy to further weaken and disunite Germany. Which even bordered a bit on the silly - even when Germany was a dozen middle states and hundreds of tiny statelets France still supported all cases of further separations out of principle...

edited 27th Mar '11 6:38:58 AM by Octo

Unbent, Unbowed, Unbroken. Unrelated ME1 Fanfic

@ Octo: I mean, the HRE states. See what Prussia alone could do in the 18th and 19th century. Now imagine what would happen if we had an united German (sorry, my bad) state in the 16th-127th century. The next logical conclusion would be a very Germany-centric Europe with a far different balance of power.

@ Kinkajou: Well, but keep in mind that Germans had always been a very industrious people, and it had its share of scientific brains before and during the Revolution.

edited 27th Mar '11 6:41:34 AM by ArgeusthePaladin

Support Taleworlds!

That's the focal point of my European History interest; the geopolitical dynamics of the region, with an emphasis on the Early Modern Period.

@Octo: The ultimate aim of France, apart from keeping Germany weak and disunited, was to establish its place at the "natural borders" of the Rhine, the Pyrenees, and the Alps. Louis XIV was the king who got closest to achieving that, but pushing the French border to the entire west bank of the Rhine was only accomplished in the Revolutionary Wars.

@Argeus: Prussia only managed to do what it did with an emphasis on military power at levels unseen in Europe; hence Voltaire's famous comment. Of course, they had a good dash of carefully applied diplomatic force, hence Bismarck managing to create Imperial Germany as an extension of Prussian power and not the surrender to Pan-Germanism more idealists would have preferred. Of course, the other Great Powers, France notwithstanding, liked the arrangement as long as the new continental juggernaut didn't break the china shop of the European balance of power.

edited 27th Mar '11 6:44:43 AM by Kinkajou

INT is knowing a tomato is a fruit. WIS is knowing it doesn't belong in a fruit salad. CHA is convincing people that it does.

Well, yeah. The HRE was the west European superpower (besides the Papacy) in the Middle Ages for a reason (okay two reasons, its own size and the other being that it was actually France in that period which was so internally divided). And a recentralised HRE at any later point would have had the same effect. But so what? That's nothing inherently bad, and as said it would have stopped Germany from being abused as Europe's battleground.

Unbent, Unbowed, Unbroken. Unrelated ME1 Fanfic

Really, without the prevalence of internationalism today I can't see France growing strong not at Germany's expense. The High Middle Ages were a time where the kings of France couldn't leave Paris without fear of ransom, and the Holy Roman Emperor naming his own antipopes. A century later and the trend had reversed; with the demise of the Hohenstaufens and the continued rise of the Capets France was now the leading power by the late 13th century.

Though ironically they're at it again today; Germany waffles on the Libyan question whereas France was the first country to accept the Provisional Government.

edited 27th Mar '11 6:48:33 AM by Kinkajou

INT is knowing a tomato is a fruit. WIS is knowing it doesn't belong in a fruit salad. CHA is convincing people that it does.

@ Octo: That does not necessarily imply a bad thing. What I did imply was that things would turn out waaaaaay differently. Again, since the impact of great people on history is so profound, I daresay in any hypothetical scenario like that, the sky is the limit.

Heck, I can argue that an Imperial Kaiser might take a liking to the old Roman Empire way and style himself Basileus ton Rhomaion and go out of his way to recover ancient Roman land. Given an united Germany, he'd have every resource to set out for that.

And Hetalia fans squee once more.

edited 27th Mar '11 6:54:06 AM by ArgeusthePaladin

Support Taleworlds!

Eh, you just need to see the border shifts over the centuries to see how France grew strong at Germany's expense... and people say Germany "occupied" Alsace-Lorraine in 1871... (though at that point in time most people in the region, despite still speaking a German dialect, where rather French-affiliated, so there is a certain point to that. Still, the region had become French by conquest in the first place).

And yes, a truly united Germany would have overshadowed France, of course, but as said, that would not have been something inherently bad ;)

I see, Argeus. But you did say that keeping Germany disunited was "in a way a good thing". Hence my reaction in this thread.

edited 27th Mar '11 6:53:31 AM by Octo

Unbent, Unbowed, Unbroken. Unrelated ME1 Fanfic

Well, for every German who lament the what could have beens of their country, at least twelve more from all walks of European nationalities would rejoice that the bad didn't come to worse in those dark days. Like, for instance, the Low Countries.

Which ironically ties into our little discussion with Cyggy just now. Reality is not decidedly grimdark or idealistic because there are so damned many ways to view a particular event or chain of events, each making sense to some.

Support Taleworlds!

What about them? In an Early United Germany scenario they'd be proud parts of a glorious German Empire, after all, and have no problems with that ;) They were part of Germany after all, until various points in time.

Still, I think you're shifting the goalposts. First you said something about German unity screwing up the European balance of power, and now it is about current "could have been dreams"...

edited 27th Mar '11 7:00:43 AM by Octo

Unbent, Unbowed, Unbroken. Unrelated ME1 Fanfic

There was a time when a strong German Emperor dreamed of restoring the Roman Empire, but that was earlier, around the XI Century.

"Atheism is the religion whose followers are easiest to troll"

Well, I said that such an early united Germany could easily change the balance of power in Europe, and then went on to say that not everyone would be happy with that. Not then, not now. I don't see any shifting of goalposts there when you agree with the first one and the second one is a matter of fact if the first is true.

Support Taleworlds!

And yes, a Germany that united in the middle ages would not be the Germany we know today; the Low Countries would consider themselves German speakers, as Dutch is but a form of Low German.

You could argue that the Dutch national identity was formed due to the dislike of arch-Catholic Habsburg rule, and in contrast the Belgians formed their country due to dislike of the arch-Calvinist Orange king.

Why would a Kaiser use Greek? He'd prefer Latin.

INT is knowing a tomato is a fruit. WIS is knowing it doesn't belong in a fruit salad. CHA is convincing people that it does.