Brave New World: How bad was it?

You don't have to suffer, you could have just been one of the many humans that just so happened to be around with the hymns started spreading. And the angels love you, they want the best for you, and that's peace and happiness, is it not? They care for you.

The thing about making witty signature lines is that it first needs to actually be witty.

No they don't, they want to control me and tell me what to do for eternity. >_<

Without making me happy and giving me 3D porn.

And that's a bad thing now?

Fight smart, not fair.

Who needs porn when they can make you so happy that you'll never think about such bodily pleasures?

And besides, the higher ups in BNW also want to control you for as long as you live, so again, what's the difference? Different method sure, but same result.

The thing about making witty signature lines is that it first needs to actually be witty.

People who like BNW like it because they think they would be Alphas.

Remember, it's not you who decides. It's random. You'd have an excellent chance of essentially being born as a monkey, and nearly no chance of being the people who are seem happy.

So really, the choice is: happy chimp, or sad human?

I'm convinced that our modern day analogues to ancient scholars are comedians. -0dd1

The Epsilons are still happy. :P

If whatever the Epsilons have can be called happiness, then to hell with happiness.

I'd rather be a fully formed human and be miserable than being "happy" and being... well, that.

I'd rather diminish, and go into the West, and remain Carciofus ;)

edited 29th Apr '11 3:36:40 PM by Carciofus

But they seem to know where they are going, the ones who walk away from Omelas.

Has anyone here read Island?

[1] This facsimile operated in part by synAC.

Not I. But it looks cool, I should definitely read it sooner or later.

But they seem to know where they are going, the ones who walk away from Omelas.

If I could find the dang book I'd read it but you want to summarize it for us?

Also Keybreak, I find it quite interesting the grounds on where you'll choose to obey or not. Apparently just having wings and singing is a tad bit too evil for you.

edited 29th Apr '11 3:46:03 PM by Usht

The thing about making witty signature lines is that it first needs to actually be witty.

Oh, I haven't read it, but it's Huxley's last book. Utopian instead of dystopian. I figure it would hae some kind of impact on the «Is BNW actually nice?» discussion, which seems to come up a lot.

It still has use of hallucinogens/relaxants, group living, trances, artificial births, and free contraception.

edited 29th Apr '11 3:48:27 PM by Tzetze

[1] This facsimile operated in part by synAC.

...no, having wings and being an incredible singer are the exact reasons I'd want to be an angel.

But in my mind the only way I could live like that is if they made me fall.

You want to talk about that though it's gonna have to be in another thread, because the World State doesn't permit religion.

Yes, but this is a World State that chooses a vague christian/jewish/islamic religion thing but just has you feeling absolute joy and happiness thanks to the power that be instead of drugs. In fact, powers so great that instead of spacing out with drugs, you feel compelled to sing praises because you're so filled with joy and happiness.

I repeat: It's the same as with BNW, just different methods and instead, you get to live forever instead of keeling over in half the time and enjoy that happiness all the same.

EDIT: So basically, it's BNW but more so and better, so then why would you reject it?

edited 29th Apr '11 11:02:31 PM by Usht

The thing about making witty signature lines is that it first needs to actually be witty.

Come to think of it, it's not so much "happiness" I'm interested in as it is the absence of dissatisfaction. Apathy would serve my purposes equally well. The nervous system of a hominid would be surplus to requirements. I think I'd rather be some form of vegetation.

I never understood the need for Epsilons. Couldn't they just mechanize all menial labor?

Then they'd only need engineers (Alphas), technicians (Betas), and maintenance crew (Gammas).

You exist because we allow it and you will end because we demand it.

Because of stagnation, most likely. I mean, why bother with doing that now when you can put it off until tomorrow? Mechanizing stuff is a lot of hard work and the epsilons aren't complaining. Seriously, that's how pretty much all of the higher up members struck me as, incredibly lazy.

The thing about making witty signature lines is that it first needs to actually be witty.

It's horribly wasteful: You've got a horde of brainwahed morons doing stupid mindless stuff: They produce no useful thoughts, and they're by any standard more expensive to keep than equivalent machinery.

I mean, a society with more mechanization and gammas upwards would be much more logical.

edited 1st May '11 5:29:53 PM by SavageHeathen

You exist because we allow it and you will end because we demand it.

It's been a while since I've read it, but doesn't Mond actually say directly that inefficiency actually is the goal?

They don't want people with useful thoughts or thinking at all. If they did, it would be a very different system.

edited 1st May '11 5:31:05 PM by Jordan

Hodor

Sort of. He makes the system inefficient so that way the epsilons neither work too hard nor work too little so that way they're in their perfect little niche of working enough to keep things going without being unhappy about it but still working long enough so that they don't have time to sit around and begin thinking.

edited 1st May '11 5:32:48 PM by Usht

The thing about making witty signature lines is that it first needs to actually be witty.

He says some improvements are not worth it, not that society is fully stagnant.

i.e. the workload could easily be reduced to four, or even three hours. Still, doing it gives the people too much time to just vegetate, so they grow depressed and restless. It's kept on purpose.

An Alphas-Only society was proven not to work, because someone had to do the Beta jobs. Architects ain't worth a damn when you ain't got techies to actually deploy and operate the machinery.

Apparently, the World State still does social experiments.

@Jordan: Alphas, Betas and (probably) Gammas are expected to make some thinking. Deltas and Epsilons are just squishy and wasteful machines.

edited 1st May '11 5:36:38 PM by SavageHeathen

You exist because we allow it and you will end because we demand it.

Savage: That experiment with the alpha island was horrifically designed, perhaps even consciously.

So you take a bunch of people raised to believe they're the cream of the crop, and tell most "whoops, sorry guys, you have to do the Beta/Gamma/Delta/Elipson labor now dohohohoho." and expect it to work out?

This is a signature. There are many like it, but this one is mine.

That was the point. The World Controllers didn't want to be told that the method keeping them in power was a bad plan.

Also, take a look at the actual numbers. The entire experiment was cancelled...after a couple of murders in the streets. There were what, twelve casualties?

Edit: Actually, never mind. I don't want to edit.

edited 1st May '11 6:36:02 PM by Ultrayellow

Except for 4/1/2011. That day lingers in my memory like...metaphor here...I should go.

You know of the existence of the back button, right?

I'm convinced that our modern day analogues to ancient scholars are comedians. -0dd1

The biggest problem with the Alpha Island experiment that I spotted was that everybody had an assigned job. According to Mond, everybody was an Alpha, but they allocated their jobs according to what they were in the rest of society. This falls right on its face.

A better way to do the experiment would be to not assign jobs to anybody and encourage the Alphas to figure out what to do on their own. I imagine that if that were to happen, they'd come up with some sort of system to make those jobs get done. Also if they had Alpha-level intelligence, I think they would come up with more efficient ways of doing the work nobody wants to do.

So for example, let's say that somebody needs to sweep the floors. Well, Alphas would know that 10 people can accompish in one hour what it takes 1 person 10 hours to do. So everybody sweeps the floors together.

What we obtain too cheap, we esteem too lightly.

That's actually less efficient, as citizens of such a machine-based culture would have realized.

Except for 4/1/2011. That day lingers in my memory like...metaphor here...I should go.