Evolution-Creationism Debates

Eh, last I checked, most Churches take about, oh say, a large chunk of the Bible to be metaphor or allegory of what actually happened or what we should be doing ourselves in our daily lives, so you're just getting back to poking fundamentalists, which I'm pretty sure most of us can agree that they're wrong.

But it's so fun! They have an appealing softness on the inside and a tough exterior. Ideal poking conditions.

Still, I'm thinking science is interpreting the facts more or less correctly.

That's what they always say until someone else comes along and proves that it was wrong and replaces it with something else. Trust me when I say that constantly happens. Science is a good method of analyzing and recording information, but it's not infallible and can be overridden by someone at a later point who has access to better information and tools. Basically, I'm saying, don't treat science the same way christian fundies treat the Bible.

I'm gonna say putting stock in what's demonstrable as opposed to what we've been commanded not to test still makes more sense to me.

But I do see where you're coming from.

So, TMA, when you say the earth was created in seven days, what support do you have for this statement?

Y'know, this is the one religious issue that really pushes my buttons. Believe in God? Fine. I won't oppose that on scientific grounds, because those scientific grounds don't exist. But to take as literal truth literature written by religious scholars thousands of years ago that flies in the face of contemporary science and to treat it as ultimately more correct on the basis that it's in the "holy book" just makes me fly into a towering rage.

Pagad. That's absolutely right. Creationism pisses me off, too. Why? Because it spits in the face of all of the genius minds which have shown us that reading ancient holy books with unholy amounts of bad science prevents us from actually finding the truth. If you want to believe in creationism, that's your prerogative, but leave it out of the science class, please. Creationism is something people CHOOSE to believe. The world is not 6,000 years old, flat, or covered in a dome. Also, I've never met a talking snake before. These things are a mockery to empirical evidence and overall common sense.

edited 3rd May '11 8:07:17 PM by joerc45

Interesting choice of word.

@ Tzetze: Ah, good eye.

How dare 3,000 year old authors write about stuff we would eventual show to be unlikely and false! A pox on them.

That's not what I meant. I'm talking about people who live in 21st century America that believe in Creationism.

edited 3rd May '11 8:21:09 PM by joerc45

Just know that not all who believe that God create the universe believe the world is 6000 years old and have trouble with dinosaurs.

Here's the problem I have with Theistic Evolution. It combines a primitive theory of explaining an aspect of nature with a theory which seems more credible than the first. For example: Having the knowledge of how lightning works and still believing in Zeus. You might say, "well, there are many deficiencies in the theory of evolution because there are still blanks that have yet to be filled", but the truth of the matter is, we cannot accept blatantly fallacious explanations that haven't a shred of evidence to support them in lieu of seeking the actual truth. Ruling them out altogether is intellectually lazy, but until we can prove conclusively one way or the other, it is meaningless as an explanation.

I'm quite aware of that. I merely speak of creationists. You know, those silly individuals who try to refute science with scripture, and accept the bible as the true word of "God".

edited 3rd May '11 9:12:07 PM by joerc45

Not a Christian.
To me its more like knowing how lightning works and believe that God created the rules that allows lightning to exist in this universe. Finding out how lightning works is finding out how God allows it to happen in this universe. So there is really no conflict with science.

edited 3rd May '11 9:25:52 PM by Blurring

Created/uses said rules.

God created the universe along with the rules, so the will of God is manifest in the rules. Prove string theory for all I care, it's merely looking deeper into God's creation.

@TMA: not trying to attack your position, just to understand it better — when you say that "earth" was created in seven (should it not be six, by the way?) days, do you mean the planet earth or the whole universe?

Also, what does "day" mean precisely in your model? Is it the period of time corresponding approximately to a complete rotation of the planet Earth? And if this is the case, were they seven days respect to which inertial frame (you know, otherwise time dilation effects and stuff like that would make the statement meaningless)?

Or can "day" be some other kind of other unity of measure? A generic "span of time", perhaps, or perhaps even some sort of metaphysical ordering of God's creative acts which can only be imprecisely — if at all — mapped to the human notions of time?*

edited 3rd May '11 9:41:50 PM by Carciofus

I think you underestimate the depth theists have looked into the issue of naturalism.

Link: TL; DR There are arguments involving axioms, Bayesian equations, counter-arguments, counter-counter arguments, revision of initial logical arguments.

It goes far beyond filling in the blanks.

edited 3rd May '11 10:02:43 PM by Justice4243

That's pretty much how I view it, Blurring. I just figure the world is how it is because of a long string of events that God used to make it that way, especially since no matter how far science it goes, I doubt it'll ever figure out what things exist. Sure, there could have been a big bang (I say could because there's several ideas on the table right now, big bang is just the most well known), sure it could have been caused by energy being forced tightly into matter, but then where did that energy come from?

And if someone thinks of an answer to that, there will usually need to be something else before that to cause that energy to appear. Sometimes it's just easier for me to think that God made a large space, set up all of the variables so everything went as planned thereafter, and let it rip.

Oh dear, this is getting into all sorts of cosmology and un-evolution-related things.

What created God?

The god of God. You see it's a never ending hierarchy.

edited 4th May '11 12:34:53 AM by Aondeug

God has always existed and he was never created, as He is not like His creation, nor similar to it, in any way.

The universe has always existed and was never created.

Check and mate.

The universe once does not exist and will cease to exist.

But God has an awesome beard....

And Jesus was way cool.