Atheist/Anti-theist/Agnostic Troper Group

Aren't we conflating religion with culture and nationality?

Which of those three are the muslim terrorists from? <.<

That's a loaded question- all three are contributors to whatever motivation a terrorist might have- I'd even argue religion is the smallest contributor.

edited 27th Jul '16 9:16:42 PM by Xopher001

The answer I was actually looking for is none of the above. Terrorism comes from poverty. All three of those are false indicators.

Terrorism comes from perceived oppression, which leads to isolation, which in turn makes a person vulnerable and morally malleable, which leads to people fucking off to the Middle East in order fight for what they're being told is noble.

Shit, even the IRA worked that way, albeit without them having to fuck off anywhere - they just self segregated within certain suburbs and small towns across Northern Ireland, which is enough to have isolate themselves from the Prods they demonized. But I digress, and what I'm trying to say here is it's not exactly a new thing.

So, yeah, Muslim ghettos are part of the reason Islamic terrorism is such a big deal, especially with so many of them being Western born. I'm not saying that's the only reason it's happening, of course. But you can't say it has no effect at all.

edited 28th Jul '16 5:43:42 AM by trashconverters

trashconverters, I don't think that's all the Muslim communities' decisions. In some countries, people have argued multiculturalism encourages it. Plus social discrimination probably pushes it too.

war877, I think that's too simple. A lot of Islamic terrorists are from the middle to upper class, while Saudi Arabia (a very wealthy country) funds the radical schools that give fuel to them around the world.

Well, my worldview is solidly proven overly simplistic by those facts. Still, I'm going to cling to it for a while. It just feels right.

I don't think it's all Muslim communities either, but I think you can't really blame multiculturalism either. I'd say the more moderate Muslims I've met come from more diverse suburbs, or even from country towns.

Heck, this is just anecdotal evidence here, but Bendigo has probably the nicest Muslim community in the whole fucking world, and they also have a HUGE white population and also this happened.

I'd say multiculturalism isn't to blame, but self-segregation within multicultural society and perceived oppression (not necessarily real oppression) .

edited 28th Jul '16 5:04:23 PM by trashconverters

war877, have fun with that then :D

trashconverters, I think there are a number of factors. I don't mean multiculturalism per se, but the self-segregation that can encourage, plus the discrimination which pushes it.

Guess which atheist troper is probably going to a Catholic university next year...

I don't really know anything about catholic universities, but my first assumption is that it is not like catholic schools. For one, I think the course content has to be identical to get the same degrees as regular universities, so no daily bible class unless you take it as an option. So essentially a normal school that gets funding from a catholic organisation.

From what I've heard there are services that you're mandated (or at least pressured) to attend. While I'd prefer that to never be part of any institute of education, in higher education - which, to an extent, is voluntary and, in principle (or not in practice) offers a variety of institutions to choose from - I'm more understanding towards the idea that an institution can have its own, openly offered agenda and require that students at least listen to it. Again, if I was king of the world I might try to put an end to that sort of thing, but it's not as bad as it could be.

(As a side note, if I really was king of the world I'd probably start by having my subjects polled as to whether they really want me to wield any sort of power; and to go with that I'd outline my goals and the means to getting to them. If [or when] my subjects would tell me they don't want an unelected ruler, I would abdicate.)

I just really liked the campus, nice and small, but vibrant, and the arts teachers seemed really passionate - and I'm guessing it's not super religious since I also saw a couple of women in hijabs turn up at open day and I already know a trans woman who goes there.

I dunno, it's the one of liked the most so far.

But I still find it ironic given my troubled relationship with the Catholic church.

Hey, you and the Catholic church might take this chance to become Vitriolic Best Buds.

We'll have our own sitcom and everything, it'll be great!

You sound like you'd make a nicer king really, Best Of.

Cheers.

People of this thread, can I ask for advice?

I have this family of extremely religious people, and they believe that people who do not believe (or at least doubt) the existence of the Dude upstairs are automatically amoral. I admit, I used to have this mindset as well. But since I started going to college, I saw that the world isn't really in black and white. That moral uprighteousness isn't necessarily relative to religious beliefs. How do you think I could spread awareness that atheists/anti-theists/agnostics are people as well (and deserve respect as much as everyone else) without riling too much aggression?

edited 15th Aug '16 4:15:21 AM by Jamiester

I'm a little bit confrontational by nature, so my approach to discussions like this can seem a bit heavy, so to speak. I sometimes give the arguments the other side doesn't want to hear first. So that's, you know, as a disclaimer of sorts.

Anyway, the first thing I usually say in this situation is that people who do good without faith are doing good because they genuinely want the world to be a better place for everyone. That's their motive. Religions encourage people to do good (or "good") to improve one's karma, so to speak, and earn a place in heaven. Some even talk of being reborn into misery, or going to Hell. So that's a system of punishment and reward, as opposed to good deeds arising from the good and altruistic tendencies of the person themself. Which would you consider more admirable?

You could also bring in a historical perspective, assuming that there's any sort of science literacy in your audience: humans evolved and lived as hunter-gatherers for hundreds of thousands of years before religion was invented (or, if you don't want to say outright it's invented, just say before it became part of our history, or something like that). Do you think the probably millions of people who lived in that time were completely amoral? How did they survive as families and larger groups?

Civilization itself is only about 10 000 years old. Granted, most (possibly all) ancient cultures had some sort of religion, but do you think they got all the way there without any morals? What of the fact that there are so many religious traditions that were entirely capable of founding and sustaining advanced cultures? Were they amoral? If so, how didn't they descend into complete anarchy?

And what about today? There are hundreds of millions of atheists around the world. Are they all amoral? If so, how can they live in their surrounding society as functional members - or are they all just sabotaging society?

Have your friends considered atheist philanthropists at all? Warren Buffett doesn't believe in God, and neither do his children - yet he's going to give almost all of his wast wealth to charity when he dies (and about half of it during his lifetime), and his children are totally fine with it. Mark Zuckerberg has made the same pledge, and he's an atheist. Bill Gates is an agnostic - although his public comments on the subject seem to point more to outright atheism, albeit with a respect for religion - and he's the one who started that whole pledge for billionaires to donate their wealth to charity. Oracle's CEO, Larry Ellison, was raised a Jew but has stated he doesn't believe any of the religious dogma of that faith, so presumably he's an atheist/agnostic, as well. He's signed that pledge, too, and stated that he will give about 95% of his massive wealth to health and education-related charities while he's alive.

Compare that to the megachurches of the US with their TV host priests who own private jets that they buy with donations from their congregation, tax free.

If someone wants to say that atheists are amoral, they have to come up with a fantastic explanation for why so many atheist billionaires have pledged to give away their massive wealth, without any expectation of a reward in the next life (or this one, really).

Morality comes from empathy, not religion. If religion made you moral, we wouldn't have many criminals, seeing as the vast majority of people are religious.

Also most religions are old and therefore condone shit like slavery. Any sane believer will filter the moral teachings of a holy book through their own personal moral compass that they built based on real life experiences.

So you can get a morals without religion, because everyone does that. There's just a large subset of people who have fooled themselves into thinking they didn't.

"Without riling up too much aggression" is pretty impossible with the sort of people your talking about. I get the feeling they'll interpret any argument on behalf of nonbelievers as an affront on them

Thank you for that amazing insight. I was thinking that I can introduce 'em to a friend of mine who's agnostic and let them see that their prejudices are mistaken. I just hope that they won't be hostile, at least.

Yea. I once tried to offer an opinion to my mother that maybe, just maybe, there is actually no afterlife, and we should try learning about other perspectives that may offer interesting theories. She suddenly snapped and yelled at me. I was told to attend mass the next day to "apologize and reaffirm my faith''. It was creepy. I'd like to believe that not every religious people are like that, though. Some just want to say thanks and worship their God.

edited 15th Aug '16 9:48:05 AM by Jamiester

My advice would be to know what you'd be getting into by attempting to open up a conversation on those subjects, what you're trying to get out of that attempt, and what the odds of a favorable outcome actually are.

But then, I'm a rather non-confrontational type, so of course I would tell you to pick your battles and maybe keep your head down if necessary.

I suggest politely asking if they actually know any atheists/agnostics, what have you? Otherwise it seems like an empty set they can just fill with their preexisting expectations.