Wisconsin Governor Scott Walker

"If you are going to make claims like that Flapjack, back them the fuck up."

You sound mad. I included cites just now. I think $40,000 is a good salary.

Yeah after we told you to include citations. Timestamps are a handy thing.

Ok, so I guess it doesnt count. Doesnt take a lot to google average teacher salaries

For the job and its requirements 40k is crap and way under the national average. Even with the benefits, it's still low.

This too. It's just a symptom of the standard American thing of putting short term gain over long term goals, and it's going to destroy this country.

edited 19th Apr '12 7:54:35 PM by Vehudur

It really, really is shit compared to the wages we have in Canada.

The benefits more than make up for it. My mother got about the same amount and said it was fine because of benefits.

Dont forget Unions have had there grips on Wisconsin schools for decades. They could've gone for higher wages but forgone them for increased benefits. I'll link this again.

that's fine. Hasnt even been an argument for my support

edited 19th Apr '12 7:59:17 PM by Flapjackmaka

The plural of anecdote is not truth. ""My mother got about the same amount and said it was fine because of benefits. "" is too an anecdote.

edited 19th Apr '12 8:02:50 PM by Vehudur

That figure only includes Milwaukee. What about the rest of Wisconsin? Also note; Walker is still attacking that salary. Why is he trying to take money away from people? It's a fucking salary for fucking working people.

Also, you're the one that made the argument that teachers are well paid. You're the one that has to prove it. Basically we all have to.

In any case, you know what? Teachers in Finland get paid a hell of a lot more and their economy isn't collapsing from it. They pay teachers commensurately more in most countries in Europe and that's not the reason they're collapsing. Taking money away from hard working people is just petty and spiteful and ridiculous pandering to the Republican idea of "cut everything by the military!"

Edit: Your mother would not have had those benefits without the unions, then. Which basically proves our point that Unions are necessary to get the good things for the individual workers. (Benefits in this case presumably being health insurance, dental and the like.)

edited 19th Apr '12 8:00:27 PM by AceofSpades

"In any case, you know what? Teachers in Finland get paid a hell of a lot more and their economy isn't collapsing from it. They pay teachers commensurately more in most countries in Europe and that's not the reason they're collapsing. Taking money away from hard working people is just petty and spiteful and ridiculous pandering to the Republican idea of "cut everything by the military!" "

Just move to Finland then. I think laws that let the workingman choose to pay into the union is just the right thing

"Your mother would not have had those benefits without the unions, then. Which basically proves our point that Unions are necessary to get the good things for the individual workers." No it just shows it's too much. People arent chopping off their legs anymore to work in coal mines ace. $40,000 plus some benefits is a livable wage.

edited 19th Apr '12 8:03:29 PM by Flapjackmaka

Unions = reasons why your mother even gets benefits.

Pro-tip: you do not get credibility by claiming to want to fix the budget, then give away billions in tax breaks. As Walker has in Wisconsin, as Eric Cantor/John Boehner/Paul Ryan have in Congress.

Also, Livable wage =! pay commensurate with productivity, worth of work, or hours put in. You can be a doctor who performs brilliant surgical feats but only be paid 30k a year, and that's still a Livable wage, but it is not what that doctor is worth.

edited 19th Apr '12 8:09:09 PM by Enkufka

So that's your solution? You want everyone who thinks getting screwed over is bad and who doesn't want to bend over and take it from huge corporations to just leave? Instead of, you know, admitting your party is screwing people over and fixing your problems.

edited 19th Apr '12 8:09:32 PM by Vehudur

"So that's your solution? You want everyone who thinks getting screwed over is bad and who doesn't want to bend over and take it from huge corporations to just leave? Instead of, you know, admitting your party is screwing people over and fixing your problems. "

Not really. Just want workers to do what they want with their wages. The only thing keeping Unions alive is laws set up by their cronies in office. Union membership has been decreasing for decades because of laws set after their inception. They are not what they were anymore. Now it's just political. I think I'm done here. Have a good weekend everyone

edited 19th Apr '12 8:14:09 PM by Flapjackmaka

Schools cut more than 2,300 positions, which was the steepest decline in the nine years that Department of Public Instruction has been consistently reporting staffing levels. Teaching positions made up more than 60 percent of the cuts, how is this good? We're not debating the unions, we're debating Walker.

edited 19th Apr '12 8:16:03 PM by ninjaclown

It has been repeatedly demonstrated by current events that if you weaken unions employers can and will abuse the rights of their workers. Or, more appropriately, the rights they used to have and these scumbags took away.

edited 19th Apr '12 8:18:21 PM by Vehudur

Workers are doing what they want with their wages. Paying into the union is adding to their wages and benefits. Once again, automatically having union dues deducted from your paycheck is not mandatory.

Secondly, the fact that the unions are being attacked constantly doesn't factor into their fighting back against anti-union laws?

Thirdly, you sort of proved my point for me. Set anti-union laws, of course there's going to be less union membership. Don't state that as if union membership is down because people don't think they're worth anything anymore.

He tried to push forward an oppressive Voter ID system, He cut $800 million to education, he lies about his supposedly fair and balanced budget he increases the deficit by giving tax breaks to corporations...

I could go on. I COULD GO ON, that's how awful this guy is. I don't know whether these are all his ideas or someone's pushing their agenda on him, but he's got to go.

Flapjack; There is more to worker's rights than not getting your legs chopped off. There's getting fair pay, there's getting reasonable health insurance, there's being able to not worry about getting fired because you get pregnant or some shit. (Something my sister had to worry about fairly recently, actually.) We still need the fucking unions, because employers will still try to screw over their employees in ways that aren't physically harmful. You are not helping yourself here with the argument "workers aren't getting their legs chopped off anymore."

Walker is basically trying fuck over the very people he's supposed to serve by going after the unions. Unions are what keeps the average man protected in the working environment, even now. That Republicans are even going after them, including Walker, as heavily as they are prove that unions are a relevant force in politics.

Also, telling me to move to Finland is the most flippant response I have ever gotten, and just totally ignores the topic. I suggest you don't do that again, as it makes you look immature.

Also, I asked a few posts back what Walker has done for Wisconsin that's positive. You have failed to answer that, aside from ranting about the evils of unions, which people have already stated that they don't have to pay.

edited 19th Apr '12 8:29:53 PM by AceofSpades

Public unions donate to democrats. Why? Because their policies are more benefitial to them. You can argue "THAT'S THE SUBVERSION OF DEMOCRACY" and you'd be right.

It's also true that corporations donating to Republicans is a subversion of democracy. Dismantling union rights is just one more way for the Republicans to control the field.

And laws that have to do with minimum wage, work place safety, the ability to sue an employer or to form a union at all, etc have nothing to do with creating a better work environment?

And meanwhile there is massive pushback from conservative groups and corporations against all of those.

Yeah, depending on the response that post got, I was going to point out that unions can't just get out of the game after passing such laws, because otherwise what's to stop their opponents from championing to have them repealed a few years later? (Which we've seen happen throughout US history.)

Not to mention, if corporations have gotten rid of those totally unecessary unions, then why dont they get out f the game already too?

Corporations increase the efficiency of business-even ignoring trampling over union rights and all that jazz.

I don't much care for the asston of Moral Hazard that corporations create and embody, but getting rid of them is an equally stupid idea.

I agree. I'm just pointing out how absolutely silly an idea it is for unions to "get out of the game if theyve already succeeded at their goals"