The General D&D thread

Hey question Tomu, how much treasure do you dish out? I'll reach the ponit where my party has so much gold they don't know to do with it so I was going to ethier slap on an Advetuers Tax or make they force them to make some mandatory donations to the local temple next time they are in town.

edited 23rd Sep '12 7:27:15 PM by joeyjojo

In ATP, my epic level game that used mostly standard rules for equipment (post-essentials wise), I ran a deliberate Monty Haul game. However, most of the time, I avoid the question of gear entirely, instead relying on custom "boons." In that case, I tend to give 1 to 2 boons per tier, with each boon having a number of customized class features and/or powers to fit the character.

Ugh, monty hauls. If only there were some way to make it so that characters actually have an established number and potency of magic items they can have at a given time...

<Eyeroll>

You can do that in 4E just as easily. Indeed, 4E even has baseline assumptions for gear.

You can also give predetermined bonuses to the characters at different levels if you want to do without fancy gear without having to do the math to figure out what level their encounters should be. I thought that that was a nice addition.

I should know this but Is 'Boons' like a official thing now or do you you just mean it as throwing the player a bone.

The notion of boons was introduced in the DMG 2. The concept has expanded, and I think that 4E official math still doesn't really know WTF it's supposed to be doing (though that's true with or without equipment). But at the very least, the baked in enhancement bonuses are actually given an alternative system.

K, I guess I should get around to learning the essential era rule base.

I've generally found the game works best when you remove the feat tax feats entirely (the "Expertise" feats), and ignore the inherent enhancement bonuses, and ignore magical weapons, and instead give everyone a +1 bonus to attack, damage, and all defenses once every three levels (with heavy armor types gaining an additional +1 to AC every 6 levels).

And by "found the game works best" I mean using mathematical models, not through playtesting.

@Durazno: hey could you explain why chrono trigger would be messy, I've never played it.

Oh, trying to model Dual Techs is what I was thinking would be messy.

Basically, each character in Chrono Trigger had a number of spells or techniques they would gain as they leveled up, and there were a range of "dual techs" that depended on both characters knowing a particular technique. So for instance, if Lucca has her "throw flame" spell (I forget what it's called) and Chrono has his "blade cyclone" skill, then you could wait for both of their bars to fill and then have them join forces to do a "flaming blade cyclone" skill.

In 4E terms, I suppose dual techs would depend on two PCs having corresponding powers, then acting together on the slower character's initiative to do something outrageous.

You would ready an action, and presumably the resultant power would do something other than what the individual standard actions would individually do. Of course this means all PC's initiative counts would line up together, which has its own nasty implications.

Perhaps you could "snap back" to your normal initiative after performing the action with your ally.

Well remember-in Chrono Trigger, part of the "penalty" for dual techs was that the faster character basically had to deliberately "lose time" in order to use the dual tech. That's part of the game balance.

It'd probably be better if dual techs replaced daily attack powers or something like that.

What I would actually like to see, to prevent, is something directly cribbed from World Of Warcraft - damage rotations. The idea is having to "set up" your big move by taking a few less powerful actions, essentially. One thing I don't really like about 4th's powers is that, in most encounters (that I've played, anyway) the incentive is to burn through your encounter powers at the start of the combat and then just whiff at things with at-wills, which is sad. (Barring something like a new entrant to the combat, there's no reason not to do all your damage up front.) I'd like to see something more akin to (for example) having a Poison Blow power that, uh, poisons dudes, and then another power that does more damage to poisoned dudes.

Obviously you have to set those up carefully so that the bonus the final power receives makes up for doing less damage with the set-up powers, but I think having to go through some kind of sequence into order to get to your big exciting power would be a better way of doing things. It also completely guts nova bursts, since in order to do any of the big impact powers, you have to spend some time setting them up.

As someone who often tried to use all kinds of combos with other players, I can say that, in order for that to work, you'd need to seriously increase hitchance. In 4e, a character hits their opponent about 60% of the time with a given attack, and if their 'big move' would require them to roll two or three attacks total, the chance of missing the attack and your chance to do so goes way under the 50% line. That's not really acceptable in a game that is already under the rule of a cruel Random Number God.

Are you trying to say that, in 4e, you can actually get physically stronger and more resilient as a character instead of just getting stronger equipment?!

...I don't know what's it like in 3.5, but 4e does give you a bonus to attack-rolls, damage rolls and defences equal to one-half your level, so yeah, I guess.

I was referring to the "inherent bonuses" that are offered as an alternative to equipment.

So yeah, Faw, that's more or less what it's intended to be. However, as Tomu points out, their math doesn't always work out right.

Ah, uh, right! Sorry, I kinda skipped over most of the posts because a lot of it goes over my head due to my lacking familiarity with 4e.

Well, I exaggerate a little when I say that you don't get stronger at all. You do get increasing attack bonuses, HD and base save bonuses, along with the skills you get from your classes. But in terms of your own physical abilities, the only increases you get are one point for one attribute of your choice at every 4 levels. And since your actual modifier only increases by one at every even number...

It just seems weird to me how you become constantly more skilled in battle, but you barely get any increase in muscle power or overall dexterity from your fighting experience. You just kinda have to be born strong, I guess. Or maybe the initial training for reaching level 1 in a class includes a lot of going to the gym and as soon as you actually start adventuring you're not allowed in anymore, I dunno.

I dunno, I personally like the fact that your fighting prowess comes not from the strength of ten ettins, but from experience and technique (which is what I believe all the base attack bonus comes from).

If it were otherwise, you'd probably qualify as some kind of demigod after a handful of levels.

Fair enough. I might just be too used to the shounen anime variety of power, where any marginally cool background character with a name gets at least enough strength to break through a brick wall, simply by virtue of being a marginally cool guy.

edited 24th Sep '12 4:41:51 AM by Fawriel

In that case, you probably want to be playing Exalted instead of D&D, Faw. :P

Probably! But my best friend just happens to play D&D 3.5. So that's where it's at.

But then D&D characters go stabbing forty-foot long dragons in the face and cracking their armor with great warhammers, which can seem a bit silly if they're not strong enough to bench-press a Buick.