Help! I think I'm becoming a bit of a weird Fascist and Nationalist we

Gonna have to disagree with you there, I think I may have been slightly racist as a child. "Those people don't look like me, they're kinda freaky".

That aside, you simply not thinking about a social construct isn't going to make it go away. If you don't talk about it then someone else will, and possibly output a harmful message. Why not counteract those people with more positive messages?

Let me put it this way. You can discuss race an individual level, and on a group level. Discussing on an individual level is pointless. It shouldn't matter to you what color any person's skin is. But it can help if you discuss racial problems as they exist on a much larger scale. That's what we're doing right now.

But more importantly, I feel like you've lost sight of the difference between race/ethnicity and nation/culture. There's absolutely nothing wrong with discussing nations and cultures.

Race and ethnicity is pointless, and there's no reason to have to discuss it. It's when races/ethnicities form cultures that we need to talk about it. That's something it is important to do something about, because you can't ignore it. Racial subcultures need to be dismantled/integrated wherever they're unhelpful to people inside or outside that group.

Yeah, kids aren't that good at understanding when someone's different from them.

edited 6th Feb '11 7:59:37 PM by Ultrayellow

Except for 4/1/2011. That day lingers in my memory like...metaphor here...I should go.

Nope, but it doesn't hurt anyone if I spend my days happily reading about the mythology of the world, and learning the languages of the world, rather than racial issues. And I get to keep my sanity.

Not thinking about race allows people to be one. You can simply enjoy a book from another human. Instead of be conscious about race. And if people focus on something, such as Neo-Victorianism, and not the people involved in it, such as saying "that black chick looks silly in Gothic Lolita, don't you know your people were enslaved and cruelly treated during that time? And you're celebrating their culture?!". It allows people to beautiful things without getting distracted by petty things. That black person who loves Victorian clothing and orders Gothic wear shouldn't have to worry about racial implications of her actions.

I'm not trying to be. And I don't know what Mathematical concepts you're talking about.

edited 6th Feb '11 8:07:54 PM by Ukonkivi

Genkidama for Japan, even if you don't have money, you can help![1]

Ukon, nobody's keeping you from doing that. It's just that people should also discuss issues which do exist. You're creating a False Dichotomy here.

Except for 4/1/2011. That day lingers in my memory like...metaphor here...I should go.

Ah, I think I see what you're trying to espouse here. You believe that if we ignore a problem it'll go away. That might work with a girlfriend or a wife but I'm not so sure about the social construct that is racism. Racism grew out of discriminating groups of people to be of your group and not of your group. The definition of what belonged and what didn't was totally arbitrary. I think it is necessary for us to have to teach human beings to be more tolerant and accepting to build a better society.

Totally ignoring racism is dangerous. Basically this is an application of "if you don't learn history, you're doomed to repeat it."

Ukon, what about the oppressed people? Should they ignore racism too?

Anime geemu wo shinasai!

And what issues are good to discuss? What issues, what issues do you mean?

I never said anybody was keeping me from doing anything. It's not as if I'm the only person bothered by certain things.

Some Westerners have been bothers about the issues of Ethnic Fetishism so much, particularly Asian Fetishism that's gotten a lot of notice, that they've sworn off race mixing because they want them and their children to be treated kindly or have been convinced that their attraction to a woman considered of another race by their society is immoral.

After a certain about of time talking about a certain amount of issues, they just mentally break. Such as me, after being exposed to a certain amount of material about the issue. That I'm probably going a bit crazy.

What false dichotomy am I making. What's important? I'm so confused right now.

Genkidama for Japan, even if you don't have money, you can help![1]

Most people don't do that, Ukon. I suggest you ignore the bastards that do.

As I said, sometimes it's good to be proud of your heritage, other times you can ignore it. Once, my cousin Amiri and I had a discussion about his name- it's Zulu, which is his ancestry. We geeked around about how freaking awesome Zulu fighting styles were and how much of a Bad Ass Shaka was for hours.

After that, he wasn't "Amiri the black dude", he was still "Amiri." I just developed a deeper understanding about how and why he was named as he is.

Aslo, if it's where you live, GTFO the Bible Belt. I know it fucked with my sanity.

edited 6th Feb '11 8:21:02 PM by Diamonnes

My name is Cu Chulainn. Beside the raging sea I am left to moan. Sorrow I am, for I brought down my only son.

I'm quite sure you're making a big deal out of nothing.

• If you like a girl, then you like her. If you're seeking out someone based on a specific ethnicity, that's problematic.

• If you like learning about a particular culture, then learn about it. It's better to know more of the world than less. Personally, I've been focused mostly on Roman, Chinese cultures and I'd like to learn more about Persian. I have a fascination with big empires.

• If you dislike the discussion of race issues in real life, avoid them. You're not racist for doing so. If you feel it adds no value and that you're not racist, then there's no point in grieving over the subject.

@Ukon: You can both study other cultures and object to racism.

Except for 4/1/2011. That day lingers in my memory like...metaphor here...I should go.

I think I understand it now.

1. Racism exists. (Obviously)
2. Racism is painful. (Understandable)
3. I want to avoid pain. (Who doesn't?)
4. Go into denial. (Ukonkivi)

It's a coping strategy. Is it a good coping strategy? Most would say no.

edited 6th Feb '11 8:31:33 PM by Grain

Anime geemu wo shinasai!

Perspective is the key here, Ukonkivi.

First, there's no real reason for you to work yourself into such a state about these issues. The world's race relations are not on your shoulders. Unless you're someone improbably powerful in real life, you won't turn the world into a giant hug-fest or Mordor all by yourself, so there's no reason to feel personally responsible for all of the world's societies. Neither is every personal interaction, be it one that involves you or one you've heard about, necessarily of world-shattering import. Most people go through their day-to-day lives with narry a thought about race relations.

I'm not saying that you shouldn't have a societal conscience, just that you need to keep in mind that you are not Atlas. Volunteer for whatever cause you're into, don't engage in racism of your own, whatever you feel is right. Just keep in mind that you are one man among billions, and every one of them has as much weight of influence on the world as you do.

Also, as for things like "ethnic fetishism" and weeaboos and such like, you need to keep in mind the difference between the Internet and society in general. 4chan is not a good representative of anyone's ideals except those of its own members.

Being into other cultures is just great. As I stated in the OP, I love being into different cultures. And part of why I have racial complexes and wish I had never thought about race is that I like being into other cultures.

Wait, what am I responding to here? I never said anything that should imply that liking other cultures means agreeing with racism. Quite the opposite, actually. I've been saying that people should be able to enjoy other cultures without having to think about race and it's possible racial implications.

And what about trying to accentuate and celebrate the similarities between people? And try to ignore and minimize the exposure of disturbingly contradictory opinion? If I spend a lot of time voicing the viewpoints of people who contrast people, just to disagree with them, don't I in some warped way, support their message and give it voice? It's like trolls. Sometimes the best thing to do, is pretend they don't exist, instead of complain about them. But someone is going to be influenced by that opinion. You can talk about race all day, some opinions offensive, some not, but the whole while people are being contrasted anyway, because the mere mention of race contrasts people. And someone is going to walk away more racist than before, not less.

Most people are similar to their fellow human being, and feel that way. Until someone tries to make them realize how silly society sees them for not acting very white.

edited 6th Feb '11 8:39:22 PM by Ukonkivi

Genkidama for Japan, even if you don't have money, you can help![1]

What are these complexes of which you speak?

Anime geemu wo shinasai!

Take a look at post 53. You seem to be arguing that you can't simultaneously complain about the existence of racial issues and enjoy things which aren't part of your racial/ethnic heritage.

Except for 4/1/2011. That day lingers in my memory like...metaphor here...I should go.

Mentioned in the OP, and other parts of this forum.

I stopped watching anime for 2 years because I felt silly as a Westerner watching anime. I felt it was the worst thing I could possibly do, could possibly have people know about, as someone interested in Eastern cultures. I thought as long as I claimed to hate anime and bashed it, I had an excuse to try to learn languages spoken in Asia. But it still happened anyway, "you just want to learn an Asian language because you think it's some anime fantasy land". Even though I had hated anime for years, people still did this. Because clearly I couldn't convince someone that I could be interested in an Asian language without being a delusional anime fanboy.

Eventually, I broke down. I emotionally broke down, and I started watching anime again, and I stopped studying any languages. It felt good and cathartic for a while.

All those years, another thing was stirring in me, as I tried to learn languages and cultures, between and apart and through the anime ordeal. I got into a lot of music from Asia. Not just Asia, also of course Europe and here in America and the like. But I had pictures of some of the Japanese and Korean musicians on my while. I swooned over many. And felt like I had an Asian fetish. Like I had not excuse as a Westerner. We were irreconcilably different, and it was my disgusting Wapanese Asian fetish that made me think others. I ripped them off the walls. And declared abstinence from any music that wasn't considered "white enough" for a year of my life.

Not only did I try to learn languages less, and when I tried to go back and study, say, Japanese, I could only cry as the intrusive thoughts would tell me how silly I was and distract me from any learning.

And in my pain, I found a pain reliever. I found Eurasianism, Turanism, Central Asia, Russia, Turkey, Altaic Language theory, Uralic language theory, European Buddhism, Eurasiatic language theory, and on, and on, and on. I would abandon these intrusive racial thoughts, and replace them with a justification, and excuse, that it was okay for me to do Eastern things, Western things, either one. Because our disconnect was a lie. If because we were different, there was no excuse to be into something, all I had to do was remove that arbitrary difference, that contrast. And Russia and Turkey, Central Asia, Eurasia, provided a way. A saviour in my sorrow and self denial and hatred. When I had a problem of contrast, no excuse, all I would have to due, is spend a few hours listening to Russian folk, reading about Savitri Devi. And think, "If she couldn't have a problem with being into Eastern culture, Hinduism, a Neo-Nazi, why couldn't I?". And these figures, these terrible figures of Fascism, became growingly idolized by me, as I used them as a base for my excuse and justification to be into something Asian.

With time, I feel like this base is causing me to grow more and more Eurasianist, more Turanist, more Fascist. As I grow more and more reliant on it for comfort.

Genkidama for Japan, even if you don't have money, you can help![1]

Do you recognize that it's silly to be ashamed of liking Asian things? Or, do you really think that it's a shameful activity, and that you have to explore European culture to balance yourself?

edited 6th Feb '11 9:02:31 PM by Grain

Anime geemu wo shinasai!

I haven't felt like it's silly to be ashamed of liking Asian things since I was a young child, who hadn't been exposed to much racial material.

I feel silly for thinking I have any excuse and can somehow justify being interested in Asian things.

At first, I didn't. But now, I do. More, after hearing that feeling enough, my own personal feelings before gave way, and the intrusive thoughts have won, and I am a slave to them. My own opinion being defeated and slowly replaced with that.

You could say it is not my opinion, and yet my opinion at the same time. Or more, it is the opinion that mine is becoming.

edited 6th Feb '11 9:08:28 PM by Ukonkivi

Genkidama for Japan, even if you don't have money, you can help![1]

Have people criticized you in real life for enjoying Asian things?

Anime geemu wo shinasai!

Yes, they have. Not so much my parents and my close friends, but much of my family.

Mostly though, oddly and pathetically enough, it's come from publications I've read. Related to race. I read enough disturbing material, books, blogs, posts. Movies, ect. Remembering people I knew from my town when I told them I wanted to eat Kimchi sometime, would say, "but you're not Asian". It got to me. And the intrusive thoughts started to take over and I lost the war to them.

edited 6th Feb '11 9:17:26 PM by Ukonkivi

Genkidama for Japan, even if you don't have money, you can help![1]

Don't do that. Do what you want to do. Actually, scratch that. Do what makes you happiest. If your family and friends' opinions are more important to you, then go with that, I suppose. But don't just cave to peer pressure unless you care more about being accepted.

Except for 4/1/2011. That day lingers in my memory like...metaphor here...I should go.

This is ignorant, xenophobic stupidity. You shouldn't listen to this stuff. Unfortunately, you're being conquered by intrusive thoughts. . .

Well, that's unfortunate.

I personally know how much intrusive thoughts can affect one's life. My advice is that you deconstruct these xenophobic influences that plague you. They're blatantly xenophobic, and you know that xenophobia is wrong. Focus on the foolishness of those people who wronged you. You can also focus on the sheer evilness of the evil things that you're attracted to. Google Auschwitz and look at the images.

Goodness, what kind of publications were you reading? And why were you reading them?

edited 6th Feb '11 9:47:16 PM by Grain

Anime geemu wo shinasai!

Well, thank you. Hearing it once isn't going to fix my problem, but it puts me in a more relaxed mental position right now.

I really need to seek out a Psychologist/Psychiatrist or something, I suppose. By the way, those "Fascist figures" was talking about, were people like Eduard Limonov, not Adolph Hitler. That is, I seem to like a lot of figures such as him, which most people consider to be "fascist" or "Nazi". Not that I have any sort of support for the doings of Adolph Hitler and company. Visiting a Holocaust site or looking at the images probably wouldn't change me, considering that I already find it to be disgusting. It's just it's, very easy to be considered a Fascist. And that's an understatement and a half.

The people over at Rev Left told me I looked like a Fascist nutjob and should be permabanned. One of the reasons being that I had stuff about dying languages in my signature, and advocated revival of them. For instance one of particular "fascist" notice said "Revive Runic". Which many took offense to. When I told them, "but how could I be a Fascist, I'm an extreme Libertarian Leftist". They told me that couldn't fool them, and that there was more to fascism to that, there are Strasserism and Anarcho-Nationalism which are Fascism, and that anyone Racist is essentially a Fascist invader. Everyone is always suspecting someone else of being a "Nazi" or a "Fascist". Just look what Germany has done about imagery.

Which is strange that I sympathize with anything about Limonov, considering that if there's anything I support in terms of Communism, it's Left Communism, not National Bolshevism. More I am just amused by the forms akin to White Nationalism or similar to in Russia, which are affirmative of Altaic people. In general the Neo-Eurastianists don't have a problem or bad opinion of Tartars, a good amount of people view them as fellow Russians. Even if many are truly concerned only with Pan-Slavism. For a bunch of "White Pride" concerned Nationalists, that's pretty cool.

Did you hear that? I called something about a group of essentially White Nationalists, 'kinda cool'. Like I said... on the road.. Maybe not the road you're thinking of. But the fact I think I'd be more comfortable around some Ultra-Nationalist who was Pro-White but also some Altaic Nationalist, I'd be more comfortable around than the type of person who told me Kimchi is for Asians, and I'm not Asian and neither are you. At least with that Eurasianist fella he could be like "Hail the White Race! Hail Eurasia!" and I'd be like "Yeeeeah! Let's go grab some Borscht or some Kimchi or something".

Another thing I like about a lot of these "fascists", is that they seem so fascinated with preserving culture and representing culture. High Culture, local ethnic culture. While people are writing songs about stupid things, H.E.R.R. is writing songs about Hagia Sophia. And American Nihilist Underground Society has much more interesting things to say about culture and society than Racialicious.

Oh God, why couldn't I just have left that at "thanks" and "more relaxed"?

edited 6th Feb '11 11:24:47 PM by Ukonkivi

Genkidama for Japan, even if you don't have money, you can help![1]

Simply not speaking about race or forgetting about race would not alleviate the problem. The people that hold power in America, Europe, Australia, New Zealand, and other places like that tend to be white, and they tend to advance the causes of white people, just as they advance the causes of men, heterosexuals, the cisgendered, people without disabilities, etc, etc. It is not an absolute racial and gender divide, because people of colour and women and gay people and trans people and people with disabilities, etc, do sometimes achieve positions of power, but it is still heavily weighted towards white males.

As white males, unfortunately, you and I are part of this system. No matter what we do, as long as the above system is in place in those countries, we will be given the upper hand by the system. This is not something that I want, and I can't imagine that it's something you would want either, but it's something we have to deal with. No matter how much this world makes you want to curl up in a ball and hide, you have to face it. If that feels bad, imagine what people who aren't favoured by this system suffer. In light of this, can you understand why people want to assert that their culture and their ethnicity are good things, important things, things exactly as worthy as the cultures of white Europeans? Why somebody like Dave Chapelle, in the face of tv shows being almost exclusively about white people, would want to do a show about black people?

For what it's worth, I don't think you're fascist - your interest in other cultures suggests that you don't believe in one superior culture that should be kept 'pure', which is a key tenet of fascism. What you may be doing is sympathising with nationalists because you appreciate their culture and feel that they've got a simpler way of life - an attractive proposition to some. But I do not think nationalism is a good idea. Starting to think "my country is great" is the all-too-easy slippery slope to "my culture is the best" and then "my culture should save all the other countries from their own poor quality". Countries are all different, but it's their cultures that are important, and the US alone has millions of different types of cultures not easily divisible. We are all people, but we're all different kinds of people, and the world needs to appreciate that more.

A lot of the claims against you seem to be because of the slightly loaded phrases you've used, which I doubt you intended. (The "bring back Runic" thing, for example, is part of Norse culture, often co-opted by Neo-Nazis.) Some of the claims are perhaps legitimate. Considering the system I have talked about almost always gives power to white people, I'm sure you can understand people reacting poorly to suggestions that we should all just forget about racial issues. If everyone in the world could be made to forget about race entirely, then yes, maybe that would work, but that's not possible. Even if you can forget, many can't, and won't.

My suggestion is that you continue to learn more about other cultures wherever you can, and speak up in approval of other cultures wherever possible. People who tell you that a white person can't watch anime because it's Asian are assholes that are trying to keep you pidgeonholed. However, always remember that you, as a white male, have the upper hand. And if you don't like having the upper hand, then work to end the system that gives you all the power. Put people of colour in positions of power, agitate when media seems to be all about white people, learn the ways of cultures and espouse them as interesting, worth everybody's time, good. The system may support you, but you sure as hell don't have to take what it does to people lying down.

The bright side of all this is that you still have a choice.

Nazi Germany, and the variant of fascism that drove it, evolved from a very specific form of nationalistic fervour, ethnic pride, and a fondness for a mythologised, idealised German past. You appear to be attracted to multiple cultures, rather than simply your own ancestors, so in that sense, I don't think you can be fascist in the way that the Nazis were.

Please forgive me if I'm mistaken, but reading this thread, Ukon, you don't appear to distinguish between talking about race in the sense of discussion of race issues and talking about race in the sense of "acting white", "Asian fetishism", "race traitors", etc. Race is obviously an unscientific construct, but there exists a clear visual distinction between ethnic groups which has led to historical discrimination, adoption of different cultural norms, and so on, and which I don't think you can reasonably ignore any more than you can reasonably ignore socioeconomic classes or national boundaries. Obviously, you can go about it the wrong way, like the Western tendency to assume the existence of African or Asian identities, modern concepts with little historical basis.

But all the same, cultural divides clearly can emerge, and have emerged, over perceived differences in "race". We can identify an African-American culture (a subculture of American culture, but clearly distinct from other American subcultures and, like all modern American cultures, not entirely American in origin), and it doesn't possess some property that makes it inherently inferior to the cultures of Ancient Greece, the Umayyad Caliphate or Victorian England. Cultures don't always divide themselves along racial divides, indeed they very often don't, but they also very often do, and when that happens, denying that means failing to acknowledge those cultures or subcultures.

Scary Librarian | Hot Librarian | Spooky Silent Library | The Library Of Babel