Of Death threats and Dickwolves

Looks like someone is whipping out the sockpuppets to force the idea of "rape culture" onto others  ^*

The idea of rape culture isn't entirely groundless, as anyone blamed for being a victim of sexual assault can attest. But somehow I doubt that complaining about an obviously hyperbolic joke in a webcomic known for its use of Refuge in Audacity is the best possible use of your time.

As other posters have pointed out, we don't generally complain that murder, theft, genocide, mutilation (etc.) jokes in entertainment, especially fantasy, contribute to the formation of a murder culture or what have you. And while I can buy that constant exposure to tasteless media can lead to a tendency to downplay real issues, I don't think treating rape as a special kind of evil helps anyone, especially victims - not least because making rape an untouchable issue just makes it more attractive as shock humor.

I have admittedly not read EVERY blog post or the comments, but isn't the "Rape Culture" argument basically the same thing as parents going crazy about videogames and how they "Promote and normalize violence"? I think there's a lot of research that disproves this claim too, which in that case, should negate the "Rape culture" argument too, no? Maybe I'm wrong here, but it does seem essentially the same. I doubt people in general will ever think that rape is okay, as long as the common moral values are there.

I think there is a need for more discussion about things like this, to help rape victims know that they can talk about their problems without worrying about being ridiculed. I think sex-education might help for example, as it seems that there are rape victims that feels an immense shame over having an orgasm during the rape (Or so I've read at least, I dunno how common this is). Thing is, your body can achieve orgasm, even if you HATE and DETEST what's going on and this applies to both men and women... And well, I hope that if this for example were more commonly known, the shame of the orgasm perhaps at least wouldn't be there.

Ah, I dunno, feel free to tell me I'm wrong. I'm glad users like Justice 4243 posts to provide a good discussion and insight on this whole matter.

Oh gods, this is like a microcosm of the larger debate...

Yeah, I come to a forum full of (relative) strangers because this matters to me. It should matter to you too, because chances are someone you know has been raped, but does not feel able to tell you about it because of the attitude that's prevalent in society. A few posters in this thread have been fairly sensible, but the large majority have been dismissive of the problem, considering it not important... What conclusion am I to draw from this?

Rape culture is not like the whole video game kerfuffle - it's not about how things normalize whatever, it's about how things ARE already that way, and trying to change them. Consider this: In Denmark, conviction rates for rape were much higher back when it was legally treated as a type of property damage. Yeah, socialistic fortress Denmark, known for its open attitude and free porn.

Rape culture is when we don't talk about rape. Rape culture is when dudebros make idiotic rape jokes and no one calls them on it, or get insulted when someone for once does. Rape culture is when one person in a crowd is made intensely uncomfortable by the way people talk about rape, but when that person saying so would be seen as a social faux-pas. Rape culture exists, and it is ubiquitous. It is so ubiquitous, in fact, that most people never even think about it.

I am here because this matters. Why are you here?

A short note re: attitude. To you, today is the day that someone confronted you with the ugliness that is rape culture, and how it permeates society. To a rape survivor, it's Saturday. That's why the attitude - every argument you bring here has been answered ten thousand times before, and it gets tiring to even the best of us.

It's generally a good idea to go back and edit your previous post instead of doubleposting.

Fighteer, it's pretty clear that you're a lost cause.

Justice, I notice you didn't address anything I actually said. You still refuse to actually READ about what really happened. And what attitude would that be, by the way? Outrage at the levels of ignorance and dismissiveness in this thread? The way you keep saying "rape culture" and "this idea of rape culture" as if you simply can't wrap your mind around the notion it could really exist?

You don't like my attitude? STOP DISMISSING ME, DUDE. Stop telling me I have no sense of humor, that I'm a prude, that I'm overreacting. Stop telling me rape culture doesn't exist. And get this part through your thick skull: NO ONE HAS ACCUSED ANYONE OF APPROVING OF RAPE. The two are NOT the same. You want me to be nicer? Try actually listening to me. Try seeing where I'm coming from. Try actually informing yourself on the situation.

What's the worst thing that ever happened to you? The thing you can't stand to look back on even now? Think about that thing. Dredge it up from where you've tried to lock it away, where you keep it so it doesn't interfere with your daily life. Got it? Good. Now imagine someone made a tasteless joke involving that thing. You didn't like it. Maybe you said nothing about it, but other people did. And the people who made that joke? They laughed it off and made sarcastic remarks as if it doesn't matter. They dismissed you, belittled you, even made a GODDAMN T-SHIRT about it. And the worst part of it? They're supposed to be your community. Your people. And they haven't apologized, either. Oh, they made a couple non-apologies, but that's all.

Oh, and this went on for SIX MONTHS. If you say you wouldn't be angry, you'd be lying. This attitude you have a problem with is the culmination of six months of abuse and harassment. It's caused by the attitude YOU have right now.

If we don't pin responsibility on the people who started the behavior, who, precisely, do we pin it on? Well, I see plenty of people here BLAMING THE VICTIMS. Gee, what does that sound like to you? All these arguments you're making are grounded in nothing. You don't know the real situation. The ATTITUDE comes because I'm sick of these arguments. I'm sick of people saying rape culture doesn't exist in CLEAR examples that it DOES. I'm sick of being told I have no sense of humor (and trust me, dude, I'm funnier than you) because I don't approve of people who bully and emotionally torture other people. Don't know what I'm talking about? DO SOME ACTUAL DAMN READING ON WHAT HAPPENED, THEN.

I'm a woman who was raped. What I see is a thread full of asshats who don't give a shit about my feelings. Trust me, you'd be pissed off too.

Oh, and uh, The Stupid Exclamation Mark? What's the matter? Can't conceive of the idea that more than one person wouldn't approve of this behavior? Guess you really haven't been paying attention.

"it's not about how things normalize whatever"

The thing is, the blog posts I read, talked a lot about how it "Normalized the rape culture". Not saying you're wrong of course, I'm just saying that's where I got the impression from, so I apology for misunderstanding you. Also, there is discussions about porn and such, and well, it seems that sex crimes and such decreased in countries like Japan (And not because less people reported them). There just is not much research that proves that there's any link between porn and sex crimes, at least in a negative manner. Or at least I have not find much. It's also why I am hesitating from taking a clear stance on the "Rape culture", or at least the definition of it I got from some of the blogs.

"It should matter to you too, because chances are someone you know has been raped, but does not feel able to tell you about it because of the attitude that's prevalent in society. A few posters in this thread have been fairly sensible, but the large majority have been dismissive of the problem, considering it not important... What conclusion am I to draw from this?"

Well, of course, this is why it's good with discussions. Now, if there were more open discussions about rape in media, it would probably help rape victims to come out and talk about their problems (I'm just assuming here though). Despite this, I didn't understand at first what the fuzz was all about, but now I realize it's a lot because of the authors of Penny Arcade basically being dicks. If they had just stopped at the first comic, or even the second one, none of this probably would not have happened... Then the Dickwolves shirts came. Bad move there.

"Rape culture is when we don't talk about rape. Rape culture is when dudebros make idiotic rape jokes and no one calls them on it, or get insulted when someone for once does. Rape culture is when one person in a crowd is made intensely uncomfortable by the way people talk about rape, but when that person saying so would be seen as a social faux-pas. Rape culture exists, and it is ubiquitous. It is so ubiquitous, in fact, that most people never even think about it."

If this is the definition, I am more inclined to agree, although I don't agree completely with it. People need to talk more about rape. I am neutral about rape jokes, but people who call out on them and say "Hey, don't do that" should certainly not be insulted for it. The issue about rape victims being uncomfortable is a tough one, but I don't think that rape is openly talked about among people usually, or at least I don't think so... I hope it's not all too common, I also hope that it isn't common for men to intimidate them unknowingly (This I assume can be fairly common sadly).

edited 12th Feb '11 12:59:00 PM by Efrath

Efrath, you make a lot of sense. A few comments, though:

Re: normalizing in context of rape culture, things like (perpetrator-POV) rape jokes do normalize rape as a phenomenon. It doesn't mean that we couldn't at some point achieve a world in which rape jokes might be okay, among other things because the usual "she deserved it"-type punchline would be considered as funny as it is, i.e. not at all. I don't foresee that happening any day soon, though.

I'm confused as to why you bring porn into this - it's really not related to the discussion at hand. Well, I mentioned Denmark having free porn in passing, but apart from that.

Wrt. your analysis of the factors that caused this mess, you're more or less spot on. It's not the first strip that caused this. It's the second one, and how Gabe, especially (but also Tycho), has acted after this, and in the following half year. The Dickwolves T-shirt was pretty damn far beyond the pale.

Basically, the way to deal with rape culture is to take people seriously when they talk about the harm rape can do, and to not fall into the common pitfalls, like dismissing survivors or even blaming victims. It's not any harder than giving some very hard-hit people the benefit of the doubt, most of the time. Some times it may seem incredible, when an allegation shows up against someone you never thought would do such a thing. But the number of false accusations is vanishingly small (on the order of one case in fifty to a hundred - and that's the reported cases, unreported ones, of which there are many, do not factor here). Making a real rape allegation is hard enough as it is.

I really appreciate the effort you're making to understand.

Hooray for being a "lost cause". Here's my perspective, and then I'll let you indulge yourselves. I am not going to change the way I appreciate culture because it offends you, or anyone else. I will make my own judgements. Gabe and Tycho clearly felt the same way, and a bunch of culture police tried to steamroll them. Well, good for them for not taking it lying down.

Free speech means the freedom to say things that are in poor taste.

Basically, the way to deal with rape culture is to take people seriously when they talk about the harm rape can do, and to not fall into the common pitfalls, like dismissing survivors or even blaming victims. It's not any harder than giving some very hard-hit people the benefit of the doubt, most of the time. Some times it may seem incredible, when an allegation shows up against someone you never thought would do such a thing. But the number of false accusations is vanishingly small (on the order of one case in fifty to a hundred - and that's the reported cases, unreported ones, of which there are many, do not factor here). Making a real rape allegation is hard enough as it is.

And again, how is this any different from other violence, which we seemingly have no problem condemning and making jokes about at the same time?

Can I just say that Shakesville seems like a pretty shitty organization, at least when it comes to the issue of looking at webcomics. They remind me of Edward Said, in that they look at something that is potentially offensive (Aeschylus's play The Persians or Dante's Divine Comedy in the case of Said and the dickwolves comic or XKCD comic #642 [see their criticism of this comic here: http://shakespearessister.blogspot.com/2009/09/comic-fail.html], titled "Creepy" in the case of Shakesville) talk about it as though it's the equivalent of colonialism/rape itself, ignoring the actual contexts of the creations (the fact that Persia had only years before threatened to subject all of Greece to servitude or the definition of a false prophet in Catholic teachings for Said and MMORPG culture or I don't even know what in the case of the XKCD comic - it is mind-boggling that this is perceived as misogyny). I mean, just as Said seemed to have no concept of history or how history is done, Shakesville seems to have no concept of what a webcomic is, what culture it belongs to, or what the actual message of one is.

Note: I'm not saying that the definition of rape culture is wrong, just as I'm not saying that critiques of the Orientalizing tendencies of the West is wrong, simply that Shakesville, like Edward Said, needs to calm down and stop making mountains out of valleys. I mean, really, how can you say Aeschylus was exerting an attitude of colonial dominance over Persia when Persia was millions of times more powerful than any polis or even all the poleis and controlled all the poleis of Asia Minor? How can you say that this (http://xkcd.com/642/) comic is misogynistic?

Fighteer: "Free speech means the freedom to say things that are in poor taste."

Yeah. And I'm free to think you're a dick for doing so. Funny how that works, ain't it?

Jesster: Shakesville speaks the way they do because... Well, because they're sick of this kind of thing happening, and it happens all the damn time. Like I said, to you, this is an unusual occurrence. To them (and at times me as well), it's just another damn day of slogging through the same tired shit.

Pykrete: Because people don't. People belittle, dismiss, deny, or outright victim-blame in cases of rape, at a frequency you see for no other crime. How often is the victim of a murder blamed for it? How often do people act disrespectfully like that about torture? Compare how often a rape survivor faces those things, and you'll see quite the disparity in numbers.

Rape culture is harmful to everyone. Men and women both, whether they've been through rape or not. Just as would be a murder culture, or a torture culture, or similar, it's not a situation anyone should live with. Rape, today, is ill understood by most people, and yet happens constantly. Some people might become guilty of rape without even realizing it, because they were never taught that this is rape too. I can't think of another crime that holds that position while being anywhere near as devastating to its victims. Rape really is a special kind of evil, as it leaves its victim not only emotionally violated, but often with a sense of guilt for being the victim of it, to boot. There are few ways to better destroy a person emotionally. And we let it happen, far too often and far too easily, because we don't take it anywhere near seriously enough as a culture, as a whole. You can say that "rape is bad, m'kay?" as much as you want - what matters is if you realize just how common rape is, and just how little it is taken seriously.

And that, Fighteer, is WHY you're a lost cause. Your complete and utter inability to consider anyone but yourself. You say you'll make your own judgments, but you obviously like to do so completely uninformed.

This isn't about offense. And this isn't about "culture police". Grow a set and stop crying because someone suggested you actually THINK about the consequences and potential harms your precious entertainment might do.

Or do you not realize that you're lashing out like a small, petty child, at a rape survivor, because she has the audacity to tell you that your attitude sucks? You big man, you.

Calm down.

So did this thread get linked to from somewhere or what?

Okay, seriously? There's a bunch of dudes here dismissing me and what I've been through because it might interrupt their entertainment and you're telling me to calm down? Nice. You know, you COULD tell them to actually have some consideration.

Yes, from here at the bottom.

Tzetze: It, like everything else relating to this mess, is linked on the timeline. Me, I'm here because I'm a troper, and don't like to see shit like this spring up in my own playground.

@lady: Actually, I sympathize with you to a low extent, as many of us have been through traumatic experiences that themselves have been used as humor in various types of media. However, I'm making it a point to tell you to calm down because you're not doing your argument proper justice. Instead, you're turning this into a personal shouting match, and regardless of your plight, this is still meant to be a place of relatively civil debate. If someone says something to personally offend you, walk away from the discussion or be the better man by not resorting to ad hominem arguments and name calling.

The authors' response to the backlash was somewhat uncalled for, but you're taking this too far, hence why I told you to calm down. It's not like you have to do what I say. I don't know you and I don't have any authority over you. Do what you want. Just don't be surprised if people have a harder time listening to your side of the debate because you're going ape shit with your posts. Rape is horrible, and sometimes it hurts to see someone make fun of it. That seems to be the root of your argument, but stop making it seem like you're being backed into a corner because you're not. If you need to vent, send me a private message and I'll hear you out. I may not agree with you, but I'll listen to what you have to say.

edited 12th Feb '11 3:19:08 PM by Aprilla

Can we please cool it with the name calling and the capslock and the accusing people of entitlement complexes and failure to read and supporting rape culture, please?

The original comic was... not that bad, to be honest. It could even be interpreted as speaking out against rape culture.

Agreed.

Incidentally, the most charitable reading I could ever make of a Dickwolves teeshirt is "I think rape is nothing special". It goes downhill from there.

The most charitable reading I could make is that they're trying to troll people who they perceive as making a fuss about something trivial. Not rape, I hasten to add - I don't think it would be charitable to say that they thought rape was trivial - but the comics.

As far as I can tell, they made a comic which referenced rape (in a negative light), were annoyed when people took offence at it and responded with rudeness and snark (which didn't help matters) and then put out a t-shirt to mock the people who were angry at them. The t-shirts may as well have read "u mad?".

Yes, rape culture is in fact exactly what it is. That you think it is not, actually underscores the argument that it is, because rape culture is when rape is viewed as commonplace, when rape victims and their allies are pushed to staying silent.

And that is not what thhis is. Rape is widely considered horrific and is viewed as less widespread than it actually is. It's extremely unfortunate that, due to the frequent scaremongering about rapists as some kind of sinister alley-dwelling monster, a lot of people don't realise how commonplace rape is, and might not even regard normal rape as being as bad as the sensationalised media variety. This does not mean that they support rape. At most it means there's a general lack of awareness which needs tackling. I remain unconvinced that Penny Arcade and their defenders have done anything worse than made a joke that was intended as shock humour, had it backfire because it hit too close to home for some, and failed to recognise the severity of the offence caused.

Bobby: You're a much more charitable person than I, it seems. See, I'd have thought that, you know, trolling people who are already badly placed was, well, in poor taste. The term is 'rubbing salt in a wound', I do believe. It's in such poor taste that any sensible venue ought to outright ban them. I rate them up there with overtly racist or bigoted T-shirts, and the wearers right alongside.

"I remain unconvinced that Penny Arcade and their defenders have done anything worse than made a joke that was intended as shock humour [...] and failed to recognise the severity of the offence caused."

The timeline will amply prove to even a casual observer that they did more than that. Their supporters can be found to have given not one, not tens, but hundreds of death threats, threats of rape, hopes of being raped, etc. There was not a peep from G&T about this until someone (whose affiliation with the rape-survivor side is, at best, doubtful) made a threat against Gabe's family, then suddenly they were out of their chairs - but only about that one threat. Both before and after this, though, Gabe himself made all manner of crass jokes about rape culture, and in general purported himself like a master ass wipe. This all went on for a half year. That's more than failing to recognize the severity of offence. That is trolling, at best, and a sick, sick mind at worst. And honestly, on this subject it ain't a long distance between the two. The very lightest judgement I can pass on him is that he is an idiot of so spectacular a level, that I wonder he can even walk and breathe at the same time. That's the closest to exoneration he'll get from me. As for Tycho... Well, he stood by Gabe through his antics, apparently doing bupkis to stop him or rein him in in any way. So he is not exactly unspotted himself.

None of this would have happened if people hadn't overreacted to the original comic.

It's like the Archduke Franz Ferdinand of comic strips.

Autochton: You see, I must disagree. Taking things out of context and without the natural reading does not help anyone's cause. Reading the initial dickwolves comic as part of rape culture when it is using rape to express the worst possible suffering that an individual can endure is simply bad form. It is like saying that the Dead Kennedys actually wanted to "Kill, kill, kill, kill, kill the poor," like saying that The Adventures of Huckleberry Finn is racist because of its frequent use of the "n-word," or like saying that Swift actually thought that the consumption of Irish infants was a solution to famine and overpopulation - simply wrong. Their reading of the comic is incredibly superficial and uninformed of the culture and artists that created it, and because of that it makes them look as though they have no idea what they are talking about.

To continue with the comparison of Shakesville's initial objection to objections of Huck Finn, the use of rape in the comic is the same as Twain's use of the "nigger," it is meant to make the reader uncomfortable, to make them feel that what is going on is inappropriate. You must feel that the "hero" is as callous and cruel as Huck is ignorant, otherwise the commentary on video game questing is not nearly as potent as it is in the comic.