Fight It Out!Liveblog is up.
Wash away the anger...I do agree with most of the points you made. it would have been nice if the tigers had stayed alive, but on the other hand, I think them being dead is also partly to show how evil the ancient spirits are supposed to be; no way are they going to let the tigers off even if they do dispell the curse. As for forgiveness showing humility, well, I think in this situation it's not very strong, but being able to forgive someone means having to get over one's own pride. Forgiving someone implies that you were wrong about them, and having pride tends to mean never admitting when you're wrong. However, in this case it was perfectly understandable why Javan sent Tygra away, so forgiving him doesn't really take much humility. One way you could look at it is if Tygra isn't forgiving Javan for abandoning him, but forgiving him for screwing over the entire Tiger clan. But Tygra never mentions being mad at him for that, which could have been done better if the last act, as you said, hadn't been rushed. I also didn't think the avalanche uncovered the cave, I thought they just happened to discover it afterward. Probably a lot more entrances than that one opening anyway. I need to rewatch the episode to see clarify most of these things. I also didn't suspect Caspin of being evil, but that might be because I really like Jim Cummings, and he didn't sound too villainous. Guess I'm naive. If Bangali is to appear at some point, then there's definitely still hope that another Tiger clan still exists, probably one that split off from the main one because they didn't want to follow the ancient spirits anymore. Here's my theory on why they aren't going back after the stone the book pointed to in Trials of Lion-O part 1; the stone is probably not at the top of the mountain, but moving across the sky somehow, and they're following it. But they never said or showed that, so I don't know.
edited 16th Apr '12 7:38:37 PM by StarOutlaw
I just figured they used the Stone as a plot point for Lion-o's death since it hasn't been mentioned in a while.
Wash away the anger...Either that, or they got to the top of the mountain and there was nothing there, and by nothing I mean not even SBS can see anything. I wonder if Lion-O could just use SBS to figure out the exact location of the other stones. Probably not though. Lion-O usually has to have some idea of what it is he's looking for before it actually shows him anything.
One of the NineDid anyone else just feel, like, overwhelming pity for Tygra? I think the whole episode justifies his weird "total hatred/brotherly love" dynamic with Lion-O, because to know that you're going to be a king and then suddenly lose it all, including a mother who no longer calls you Prince, and losing your mom... I mean, wow. Just, damn. That actually made me really like Tygra, and I hated the guy!
STAND BACK! I TAKE LARGE STEPS!
Element of ClassYeeeah... It was a pretty hard couple of blows to him there, and it does kind of paint his as a cosmic whipping boy. But in a way I think they might have gone a bit too far with it. Not that he didn't have reason to be pissed, but the whole 'I lose everything I care about' smacked a bit emo to me. I dunno, something about this episode's writing in general didn't sit well with me. I'm not sure why, I think the pacing may have just been off.
No, not for me. No matter if you lose your mom and what you think you deserve, it doesn't give you the right to act like that to your brother and attempt to kill him twice. There's a different between feeling pity for him, and condoning his actions just because he didn't get what he wanted. I don't see Lion-o whining about things like that, and i'd say his life has been a lot worse than Tygra's. His mom died giving birth to him, no one wanted him as king, the girl he liked has been in love with his brother for years and was "mentoring" him, and his brother tried to murder him twice. There's a lot more i can say, but i think this should be enough for now.
edited 17th Apr '12 12:56:40 PM by hollowdheart
Wash away the anger...Tygra was still the kid the first time he almost killed Lion-O, and I think the Astral Plan and Mumm-Ra may have been messing with his head in Between Brothers. And once it looked like Lion-O really would die in both cases, he tried to save him. I think that with the tiger's history of supporting Mumm-Ra, Tygra may have faced some prejudice as a kid before he proved himself.
Does it help Tygra's case that in one of the "Old Friends" flashbacks Grune seemed to be fueling Tygra's resentment of Lion-O?
But no one believed in Mumm-ra, so i doubt they'd be prejudiced against the Tigers.. And being a little kid isn't an excuse. Little kids do bad stuff all the time, and shouldn't be excused for it. Mumm-ra may have been able to effect the Plane, but Tygra did what he wanted. It doesn't make much of a difference, given that Tygra resented Lion-o the moment he was born for things he had no control over (Queen dying and being CP).
edited 17th Apr '12 4:34:54 PM by hollowdheart
Wash away the anger...Even if no one believed in Mumm-Ra, tigers may have had some reputation for being followers of evil spirits. The queen did keep mentioning gods after all, so they have some kind of mythology. I can still forgive Tygra for his two outbursts because he does show guilt and he does make things up. I don't think he should go unpunished, and I think it's reasonable to assume Claudus did punish him when he was a kid. This isn't like Azula trying to kill Zuko, where she's quite clearly a bad person and doesn't show any remorse. I'm beginning to wonder what royal life was like in Thundera, because it seems pretty casual. Claudus and the Queen just walked right in amongst the crowd, and Lion-O and Tygra hung around with the party goers in the premiere. I guess the Clerics are always watching them from the shadows in case something happens.
oh, i see what you're saying. But the thing with the second time is he didn't get punished, and if he had truly regretted doing it the first time he wouldn't have done it again. He got rewarded, Cheetara says that she heard what happened in there....so she must have known how they had fought and Tygra's second attempt, since she said it was partly her fault for not "being clearer with my feelings". I wonder what "gods" they worshiped? One thing i noticed about the Queen and Lion-o is that they seem to suffer a lot. I'm sad Lion-o wasn't able to see her when he died.
edited 17th Apr '12 5:22:52 PM by hollowdheart
I don't get why Tygra thinks he still has any reason to hate Lion-o. I mean, Tygra is one lucky devil. To be tied to a baloon, land by coincidence into the most powerful kingdom on Third Earth, populated by the same species as him, be immediatly adopted by said kingdom's royal family on his arrival, which means automatically becoming a prince and having a comfortable life, full of privileges. His adoptive parrents treat him with love and respect. People of Thundera love him, he gets praise from everyone. Oh, and the woman, which has been the love of his life since childhood, responds to his feelings and chooses him over his brother. And he still envies Lion-o, only because Lion-o possesses the sword and the the title of the king by right. And don't even start the whole "Lion-o killed his adoptive mother by being born". First of all, babies don't choose to be born. Second, it was the Queen's decision and he should respect it like nobody else. In his twenties, he should have have understand this things long ago and should've acted more mature towards his brother.
Fight It Out!Because it makes for cheap angst
And what else pisses me off is that Tygra at least had someone to call a mom. Lion-o was a half-orphan from the beginning, and Tygra instead of showing sympathy and understanding to his adopted mother's son, for whom she was willing to gave her life, he starts blaming him for "taking everything he had". In the beginning, I was thinking about Tygra as the mature, confident and aloof older brother. But now, he's the (w)angstiest member of the team.
I really don't like how they're trying to make him sympathetic/woobie-ish with this, like this is supposed to make me like him. I hope the kids who watch the show and have siblings (or are a similar situation) don't act like this with their siblings. How old was Tygra supposed to be the first time when he broke the log and almost killed Lion-o? There's a way to make him sympathetic, and then there's the ways they've been condoning his actions up until now just because of what happened when he was 2 or 3 years old.
edited 19th Apr '12 1:43:35 PM by hollowdheart
Wash away the anger...I can't really defend Tygra's actions or motivations. These are all good points. All I can say is that maybe after Lion-O was born Tygra was also treated very differently, since he wasn't crown prince. However, he was so young at the time that this probably shouldn't have had that much of an effect. Possibly between the time of Lion-O's birth and when Tygra was a teenager, Tygra did get mistreated, maybe not by Claudus or Jaga but by some of the other nobility. He might have really looked up to Grune since he acted like a cool uncle to him, sympathizing with Tygra, or something like that. Grune might have been the one to cause Tygra to act the way he did, by encouraging him to take what he can't earn and so forth. Once Grune started influencing Tygra, Tygra could have really started trying to prove himself as worthy of being the king instead of Lion-O. This is all just theory of course though. But I'm going to partly blame Grune for misguiding Tygra. And almost forgot, we have news; The Crew of Omens is finally answering questions again: http://crewofomens.tumblr.com/ And there's going to be a Thundercats game for the DS by Namco Bandai: http://www.thundercats.ws/news/thundercats-statues-and-other-products-news-5/nintendo-ds-thundercats-video-game-416/ http://www.thundercats.ws/news/thundercats-statues-and-other-products-news-5/thundercats-ds-game-interview-and-gameplay-video-418/ It looks exactly how I expected it to. There will probably be previews for the next episode soon.
edited 19th Apr '12 6:38:15 PM by StarOutlaw
Well, that's good. I need to ask them some questions. I don't really see Tygra being treated differently, and Claudus and the Queen were the only royalty we've been shown, so i don't think there was any more. Grune wouldn't have been around much though, would he? He and Panthro seemed to always be out of Thundera. Though i'm not sure that even the townspeople hated Tygra, since it was universally known that everyone thought Tygra would be a better King. I don't see the Thunderians hating someone and letting go of it so easily. I do have some concerns about Tygra internalizing so much. It certainly isn't healthy. I wonder why Lion-o never seemed to hate anyone as much as Tygra did the Lizards and Lion-o, unless he got that from his mom? Maybe she talked to him in the womb and that helped?
In that little game trailer thingy did anyone else notice it had Lion-O say "Grune! That bastard!"
Yeah, kinda odd for that to be in a children's game, since the show is for kids now.
Bitter Hateful CynicPoor Tygra... he finds a loving home, parents who appreciate and encourage him, who accept him as their own flesh and blood. He's taken in, and he's accepted and given a title and a future. But then mommy-dearest gets knocked up, and Tygra is suddenly treated as the red-headed step-child. God no honey, you're not my prince anymore, or anybody's prince, you're the kid we got before our precious true little angelheart, our true prince. Oh Tygra dear, just accept your future as a servant, the second in command to our one true child and your future king. Lion-O got everything handed to him, as far back as when he was still a zygote.
Well, that's feudalism for you. One is the king and the others are his servants. Besides, the blood isn't water and it's naturally for the parents to love their own child more than the adopted one.
Are you being sarcastic, or are you serious? Since it's the internet i can't tell.
Fight It Out!
Lion-O got everything handed to him, as far back as when he was still a zygote.That's how hereditary Monarchies work. And clearly it was Lion-O's wish to never get to meet his own mom.
Wash away the anger...So let me get this straight; on one hand, Tygra is incredibly lucky to have escaped death and get adopted by the royal family of the most powerful kingdom on Third Earth and have parents who loved him, and even his biological parents make him a prince of a different clan. On the other hand, Tygra's unlucky because he lost his mom and didn't get to be king anymore. But despite this he's still loved by his adopted dad and the whole kingdom still ends up liking him. Tygra may or may not have worked hard to get all the praise he did, but regardless of that he's still very lucky to have ended up where he is. So, does Tygra have a right to be angsty or not? Is it reasonable for him to be bitter about it? Is it okay for him to be bitter at Lion-O because Lion-O was "handed everything" while Tygra had it taken away? In his eyes though, Tygra still sees himself as having had to work to become as worthy as he is, and he thinks he's unfortunate that he had the title of crown prince taken away because of Lion-O, despite the fact that Tygra was only a prince in the first place because he happened to float in his balloon to Thundera. So, is every person that isn't born royalty unlucky? Isn't Tygra especially lucky that despite not being a lion he got adopted and still became a prince? It's not like he was the crown prince in the first place. It's the equivalent of giving a kid a toy and then taking it away; it wasn't his to begin with, so it's not like it's a net loss for him. And as for Lion-O, he never had a caring mother figure and had to be raised by Claudus' strict parenthood and he's spent his life being prepared to be king, which does not offer a lot of freedom. I know there's a perception of royals having it easy and living a pampered life of luxury, but it does come with a lot of responsibility that ends up getting forced on kids not prepared for it. Tygra may have chosen to prepare himself to be king to prove himself, but Lion-O had to do it whether he liked to or not. And let's be clear here; Tygra was "handed everything" just as much as Lion-O was. Why? Because even if Tygra wasn't born the crown prince, he was still "handed" the title when he got adopted, and as a baby it's not like he did any damn thing to earn it besides being lucky. The difference is that for Tygra it got taken away. To claim that Lion-O doesn't deserve being "handed everything" doesn't hold much sway once you consider that for Tygra he was pretty much literally handed the title of prince just for being a cute lucky baby. It looks like Tygra worked hard to be a good prince after that, but it's not like Claudus would ever disown him for not meeting standards. Panthro, the kittens, and Cheetara are the characters that actually had to work to survive and get where they are, and for Cheetara there's the whole issue with being "handed" the flower that let her get through Jaga's trial. I get that it's cool to dis on people born rich or born into nobility because somehow it's like they're cheating and not working for their success, but as previous posters have said, Lion-O never chose to be born, he never asked to be crown prince, and he never wanted to wield the Sword of Omens. He wanted to study technology and unlock it's secrets, which in the real world would be admirable traits. Maybe if things were different, Lion-O could have just let Tygra be king, as he did think Tygra would be better, but we just went through an arc explaining why Lion-O is more suitable, and I've spent enough text about that. Lion-O may have been handed the sword and the leadership on birth, but this whole series has been about him actually earning it. It really doesn't matter how Lion-O got the power and the responsibility, he's been learning to make the most of it. There are a lot of things in life that aren't earned, they're just given because of luck or fate or just because people like or dislike you, and in that case something had to be done to earn the love or hate. Spider-Man didn't do anything to earn being bitten, Superman didn't do anything to earn being sent to Earth, and Batman sure as hell didn't deserve being born immensely wealthy 'and getting his parents killed. Sometimes stuff just happens that people can't control, and you can't blame them for that, just like you can't blame Lion-O for being handed what he's got. Blame Claudus and royal tradition. If everything was fair, everyone would be sent to live naked and homeless once they were old enough, so everyone would need to earn what they get. Even then some people are still born stronger or weaker than others.
edited 20th Apr '12 10:03:59 AM by StarOutlaw
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