Fledging Supervillian
Question: what is the difference between homicidally insane and mindless?
ALL HAIL THE WARGERBIL!
Someone can be homicidally insane and yet also crafty and astute. A mindless individual would only attack irrationally.
The labyrinths contain human culture placed deliberately. Human culture and the arts still inspire a emotional response out of them, strong enough that they went through the effort to include it in their worlds. You might say it is instinct that moves them to create, but the same could be said of humans.
They do things they wish not to, but so do humans. When Madoka and Homura were on the verge of becoming witches, Homura had become emotionally okay with destroying the world with Madoka. The witches are in that same mindset. A mind set where it just doesn't matter anymore. For Homura who became alright with rampaging with Madoka and Madoka who stops caring about the line between reality and fiction and traps the world in an illusion.
Then you take people in that emotional state and give them the power of witches. That can make any fantasy real. That can bring to life memories of a better day. That can kill the people they hate. To inflict pain. Kirstein did not just attempt to kill Madoka. She tortured Madoka with the memories of Mami's death. She looked into Madoka's memories and understood Madoka well enough to know what memory would hurt Madoka the most. She did that purposely.
When life gives you lemons, burn life's house down with the lemons.
Fledging Supervillian
Only, if that were true, Oktavia would have reacted to Madoka's attempts at calming her. She did express regret over hurting Madoka, and if any part of a Magical girl still remains after she becomes a witch, then bringing them back to their senses wouldn't be as impossible as Kyubey made it out to be.
I concede the point that Witches are not strictly speaking mindless creatures by Napoleon's definition, but if your theory is correct, then what about the witches who are created because a Magical girl runs out of power? Falling into despair isn't the only way to become a witch, simply using too much magic will also cause a witch out. Those witches have no reason to rage against the world, or prey upon humans, yet they do so all the same. If your theory is correct, that Witches retain their former intelligence, then those witches should have no problem co-existing peacefully with humanity. Hell, Gretchen wouldn't be a threat at all, since almost every time she appears, it's because madoka used too much power, not because she fell into despair.
edited 20th Aug '14 5:10:53 AM by CannonGerbil
ALL HAIL THE WARGERBIL!
We seriously need more crossovers for these two. 
So, I just watched Rebellion. And I like it!
And personally, I felt that the ending was built up sufficiently.
Well, she (Homulilly) was kind of a product of an experiment by the Incubators in the movie. The one time she was made naturally in official media, she stopped the universe (apparently). So...yeah.
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
The transformation into a witch from overuse of their power is a slight oddball. Magical girl are bound to karmic laws, so that their magic inspired by hope is repair in equal despair causing their gems to darken.
What I noticed is that their gems dim, don't actually turn dark until they emotionally starting breaking and a curse forms. The usage of magic might be weakening them making it easier to push them pass their limits. The stress people can take changes based on their health for example. Not to mention Madoka had just finished off Walpurgisnaught and the city was in ruins and had every reason to despair.
Sayaka was already way pasted her limited and it no matter that the person she was crushing was Madoka. Or maybe it did? Even though Kyouko was the one could fight her, Sayaka still targeted Madoka who could only speak and to kill her rather then to feed. Even before becoming a witch she was starting to blame Madoka for what was happening to her and it just got worse as a witch.
When life gives you lemons, burn life's house down with the lemons.
Fledging Supervillian
There's still the point that if Witches still retain their pre-witch identities, it really shouldn't be impossible to convince them to return back to their regular selves, or at least stop raging against the world, but it's never been done. It just doesn't hold up to close inspection.
ALL HAIL THE WARGERBIL!
I wonder if it's worth comparing Witches to the berserk Shadows from the Persona games. 4 especially.
Song of the Sirens
One does not simply "convince" a person who has gone completely past their limit to stop. They are not really interested in what anyone has to say and no one really tries. It was a time were is was possible to save them, but no one did. Now it's too late.
It might be possible to help them, but they will never be their former selves ever again. They have become too damage, too twisted. So even though they have their full intelligence, their old memories. its too late. A normal human would have kill themselves already.
This is not because nothing is left of them. There is. They are still driven by human emotions. Human aesthetics, their own memories and hatred rather then indifference. They're still self-aware. Still aware of others. Knowing Madoka's feelings H.N Elly/Kirstein tortured her. Madoka as Gretchen erased the line between fantasy and reality and seal humanity into an illusion.
No one can explain these behaviors. Some people tried to put it into a black box called "instinct" but that isn't an answer. It is there humanity that is driving them.
I don't know a lot about Persona. Do you mind explaining?
edited 20th Aug '14 11:02:09 AM by higurashimerlin
When life gives you lemons, burn life's house down with the lemons.
Formerly G.G.
You are free to believe that as there several nods to Jungian psychology including the anima and the shadow archetype.
Sorry I got ninja'd
edited 20th Aug '14 11:04:24 AM by GAP
"We are just like Irregular Data. And that applies to you too, Ri CO. And as for you, Player... your job is to correct Irregular Data."
Well their collapse probably does bring some part of that out, but I don't think it describes witches a whole.
My understanding is that the shadow is aspects of yourself you don't identify with. For moral or social things usually. Sayaka for example who see her self as a selfless knight doesn't want to identify with feeling hatred towards Hitomi and Madoka. Being forced to see that part of herself is one of the reasons she turned into a witch.
edited 20th Aug '14 11:15:58 AM by higurashimerlin
When life gives you lemons, burn life's house down with the lemons.
Queen of Good Things, Honest
It takes two to persuade someone: one to talk and one to listen. If the latter party refuses to listen to a word you say, no argument in the world will change their mind.
edited 20th Aug '14 4:26:07 PM by TobiasDrake
My Tumblr. Currently liveblogging Haruhi Suzumiya and revisiting Danganronpa V3.
Try to imagine what it is like to be a witch or in general to be suffering. You are in terrible pain and despair, pushed well past your limit and someone is telling you to be more considerate for other people. If I was in that position my response would be SHUT THE HELL UP! I might not even give them that.
When life gives you lemons, burn life's house down with the lemons.
World's Cutest Direwolf
If we're getting Jungian, looking at the natures of the witches of the Holy Quintet suggests they reflect the the megucas' personas, the side of them they present to the world at large.
- Homura = Self-reliance
- Madoka = Mercy
- Sayaka = Falling in love
- Kyouko = Abandonment
- Mami = Inviting
edited 20th Aug '14 4:43:57 PM by rikalous
The witches' natures are definitely worth looking at. Especially Walpurgisnacht's, which is 'helplessness'.
Song of the Sirens
Kind of makes it odd that we having this discussion now and not earlier to my knowledge.
When life gives you lemons, burn life's house down with the lemons.
Well now. What is that is? I don't even know what to call that!
When life gives you lemons, burn life's house down with the lemons.
HGW XX/7
Oh God.
Schild und Schwert der Partei
Perverted Homura causes them to lose a jaeger. God damn it Homuhomu.
When life gives you lemons, burn life's house down with the lemons.
The Cosmopolitan Fictioneer
You should see the artist's other creations. There's a Blade Runner
one, two Terminator ones, and my favorite so far, a Lupin III one with a hilarious ending and the twist that Homura is not cast in the role of the title character, among many others. This person is rather prolific, that's for sure.
Wow. that's great. The greenie in the T2 one is from one of the spinoffs, right? Only one I don't recognize.
The labyrinths are design deliberately. Sayaka's was just a twist version a the surrounding environment until so time passed. This covers the labyrinths not changing during the fights as it would take time and it would be time not protecting themselves.
And the text still refers to themselves which is self-awareness. And the labyrinths do still contain human culture which they pick to match their (twisted) preferences.
They became witches after reaching their emotional limited and started to curse the world. They show malice to even the people they care about although they recognize them(besides Oriko Magica). They are screw over emotionally so much that they will attack anyone. It isn't a matter of not telling the difference.
TL;DR The witches are insane not mindless.
edited 19th Aug '14 7:52:45 PM by higurashimerlin
When life gives you lemons, burn life's house down with the lemons.