Puella Magi Madoka Magica

Various times, like him telling Sayaka her wish is grantable, announcing that Homura's wish "prevailed over entropy" or something, and the fact that no one ever wished to destroy all evil in the universe and turn Kyubey into a newt. (Well, Homura kinda did that, but very indirectly.)

edited 15th Aug '14 7:32:45 PM by Kotomikun

That would be something to see.

"I wish for world peace!"

"..."

"Is... something supposed to happen?

"Sorry, kid. You ain't got the gift."

(why do all Incubators not sound like Southern preacher men that would be awesome)

edited 15th Aug '14 7:33:28 PM by majoraoftime

Wasn't it? I mean, her wish got granted. That's the whole point of making meguca, no? Push back entropy, delay the heat death. I expect there's some power limits on people who aren't Madoka, or the coobs would just have one magical girl wish that entropy stops being a problem and then leave her to do whatever with her powers. And a minute later another coob comes along and eats the newt.

edited 15th Aug '14 7:59:36 PM by rikalous

I'm pretty sure Kyubey can lie. He just prefers not to.

to be fair, he doesn't REALLY need to. feeding them half-truths or just omitting information seems to work just fine for getting the girls into the contract. most of them don't really think to ask the questions that would reveal the insidious nature of magical girls, so he doesn't need to feed them any lies.

The point is, he wouldn't say a wish is grantable unless it was possible for a wish to not be grantable. Same for Homura's, what he said implies a wish can fail.

Yeah my thought is that once Kyubey approaches them about contracting he has basically already signed and can't refuse it. And that he is not the wish granter but is actually unlocking their power so that they can do it. This would knock out some wish ideas like wishing for "an ideal world" that can be created by their own power since they don't know what that would be.

When life gives you lemons, burn life's house down with the lemons.

Kyubey doesn't lie because he doesn't have a reason to. He doesn't consider anything that he's doing as deceitful. When asked a question, he gives an answer.

Remember when he flipped out on Madoka for throwing Sayaka's soul gem off the bridge? He volunteers the information on Magical Girls being liches in a, "You should already know this, WHY DON'T YOU KNOW THIS?!" fashion. Kyubey doesn't consider what he's doing to be manipulative or cruel; he thinks of the contract as a fair exchange and his interactions with the rest of the cast are colored by this.

He tells you what you want to know when you ask about it, and doesn't consider it his fault that a Soul Gem doesn't come with a FAQ. If you didn't ask but then clearly needed to know as in Madoka's case, he spills of his own volition.

edited 16th Aug '14 9:42:14 AM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently liveblogging Haruhi Suzumiya and revisiting Danganronpa V3.

The issue is he is knowingly exploiting a defect in the human psyche.

These are the words that shall come from my mouth. I shall be known for speaking them.

Kyubey is a skilled manipulator who can convince anyone that he can turn lead into gold if you can make a contract with him. He never lies but he is a pragmatist who can mess with his contractees with his smooth talk and poker face. Kyubey is a negotiator.

"We are just like Irregular Data. And that applies to you too, Ri CO. And as for you, Player... your job is to correct Irregular Data."

...Kyubey's not that good a manipulator.

He's screwed up more than once.

Indeed.

It's that the girls he's manipulating don't really ask the questions they should, or choose the worse possible options.

One Strip! One Strip!

My point is this: lies are a powerful bargaining/negotiating tool; a master negotiator knows when to obfuscate, mislead, and/or outright lie when it's needed. Kyubey already exploits something pretty close to it; he withholds information that his mark would have no way of knowing, and makes his bargains at such times when his mark is not likely to ask questions. Thus, when his mark discovers that he had misled them, any faith they might have had in him would be gone—even if he hasn't lied outright; they'd naturally assume he's leaving out some key detail. There is no reason for him not to lie if he's already willing to mislead and continues to do so even after he's been caught out in it. The increased cost of mistrust by going from a lie by omission to an outright lie is quite small; why does he not cross that line?

Most of the answers I've seen seem to indicate that he has a preference not to. Sure: whence that preference? Is the contract invalidated if he states a mistruth, but remains valid if he lies by omission? But that's a one-time deal. Or is there some other cost to him if he makes a statement of a lie?

Remember, Madoka only was able to ascend to godhood by standing on the shoulders of giants, to quote Newton. We see Homura's contribution to this, and Kyubey has stated to Madoka that previous wishes were instrumental to the world turning out the way it did. What if one of those wishes restricted Kyubey's ability to lie? He could still mislead, obfuscate, leave out key details...but he can't state something that's false. Would it not fit what we know?

Charlie Stross's cheerful, optimistic predictions for 2017, part one of three.

The tautological explanation is that it'd be a much less interesting story if Kyubey just lied whenever he felt like it. He'd be more of a stereotypical villain, and couldn't work as an Exposition Fairy or source of any sort of consistency. The whole thing would be a quest to untangle his web of lies.

It could have something to do with the "purity of a wish" thing he keeps talking about, that he can't suggest wishes or force people to make a contract. Maybe a wish made under false pretenses doesn't generate much energy.

He may not even understand how to lie. He's part of a Hive Mind that knows practically everything and isn't very imaginative. They think emotions are a mental illness. It's likely that they can't conceptualize making up false or impossible things, so the best they can do is leave out information that seems to make people less willing to contract with them.

If he avoids lying so that he can blame the girls for not asking the right question. He needs to avoid lying to make that work, otherwise they could call bs and point out that he would should lie when ask.

It is also easier to let the girls come to the wrong conclusion on their own rather then make up stories. Give some basics and let them invent the story.

When life gives you lemons, burn life's house down with the lemons.

He doesn't just not lie, he volunteers information when it becomes relevant even if nobody's asked him - such as when he showed up to explain the Soul Gem connection after Madoka threw Sayaka's, or when he went of his own volition to exposit at Homura during Rebellion Story. Kyubey sees nothing wrong with making the girls into liches because it makes reasonable sense to him: as he explained it to them, being a lich makes them far more effective as Magical Girls, and that's what they signed their contract to become. Even his terminology is needlessly informative: as he later explains, the larval state of a Witch would be a girl with magical power, or a Magical Girl. He could have just called them Magic Knights or Wish Warriors or any number of things, but he picked the name that has the clue in it because it makes logical sense to call them that.

And he still seems just as flabbergasted at Madoka's refusal to make a contract even after she knows all the gritty details. I really don't think Kyubey is deliberately trying to deceive them; rather, he lacks the capacity to understand why what he's doing, effectively murdering teenage girls for energy, is morally objectionable. He honestly believes that the logical thing to do when presented with his deal is to sign it, despite all its drawbacks, because you get a wish granted and that balances out your imminent demise. It's a fair trade as far as he's concerned, your life for your greatest dreams.

As a Hive Mind, Kyubey has a very different sense of morality than humans do. We see his flagrant disregard for even his own kind when Homura shoots one, and Kyubey responds by eating the corpse. Mentally, he's not a mammal; he's more akin to an insect. Drones die performing their duty and the hive is greater for it. The life of a drone has no worth but what it can accomplish.

To Kyubey, Magical Girls are drones. The life of an individual girl has no meaning. She dies, and the human hive is greater for her actions before death. As far as he's concerned, that's what he's peddling: an opportunity to die advancing your species, in exchange for helping him advance his. To a bee or an ant, this would be a perfect arrangement.

Mami's wish was made under duress.

edited 17th Aug '14 7:00:16 AM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently liveblogging Haruhi Suzumiya and revisiting Danganronpa V3.

Kyubey isn't really moral, but does seem to get rationalization in somewhat. He only 'cares' about the girl as means to an end. He then tries to argue his conclusion from a moral standpoint. If he really is confused and not just pretending as to blame the victim, then probably he has something like anthropomorphism but imposing the incubators traits on humans.

He has been around since prehistory, he has had more than enough time to learn that his actions mislead people. We really shouldn't expect a alien to show morality given a different evolutionary history.

When life gives you lemons, burn life's house down with the lemons.

I agree with this.

I think Kyubey considers humans to suffer from Blue-and-Orange Morality, due to us making such a fuss over one measly drone whose entire purpose for existing is to do whatever it takes to advance our colony, up until death. He outright states that emotions are considered mental illness by his people; he knows it upsets us but he considers that just to be symptomatic of our weird ass-backwards way of processing things. He is incapable of relating to humans, and that makes him incapable of even so much as considering the possibility that what he's doing is morally wrong.

For him, it's like dealing with a mental patient. "That's Bob, he has a disorder that makes him think sacrificing human lives for the betterment of society is morally objectionable, be gentle with him, but don't humor his delusions or you'll make it worse."

edited 17th Aug '14 7:22:35 AM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently liveblogging Haruhi Suzumiya and revisiting Danganronpa V3.

Well not exactly. He doesn't really care if it is morally wrong anymore than an ant. He probably understands but doesn't care since he doesn't decide according to morality.

If we assume that at least some of his discussion is honest and not just rationalization to convince humans to do what he wants, then we can assume he values sentient races to an extent but not individuals. He doesn't have any empathy given he doesn't have feelings. It is probably best not to think of him as a human with differences.

No matter what argue you put forward he won't care unless you appeal to what he does care about.

When life gives you lemons, burn life's house down with the lemons.

Honestly the best attempt of getting the incubators in line was to point out how despite seeming more efficient is very wasteful in a way a more fair system wouldn't be. Payoff relies on a girl witching, each girl working against each other makes it more likely that they'll kill each other in a non-witchifying way. (Say Kyoko had hit Sayaka's Soul Gem to power her down, a witch would attack randomly not in that strategic way) , you have to twist information horribly to hey any willing volunteers. The conflict of interest inherent in the system, no help from adult humans that understand their own psychology better than incubators, the chance of accidental suicide by destroying the gem. Better get a smaller more frequent payoff with all parties informed and on the same team.

The Crystal Caverns A bird's gotta sing.

Speaking of soul gems and witches, if they knew about the soul gems as magical girls will they aim for it as witches? I can't remember any evidence that witches are any less intelligent than magical girl so if they know they would probably aim right for it.

When life gives you lemons, burn life's house down with the lemons.

Witches don't seem intelligent at all. More like animals.

Witches seem to mostly run on instinct.

Song of the Sirens

Insane, not at all intelligent but so obsessed with whatever their gimmick is that they forget about nearly anything else. If witches were intelligent don't you think Octavia would've shown more signs of it?

The Crystal Caverns A bird's gotta sing.

I figure that, in D&D terms, witches have an Intelligence score of "-". Like zombies. Mindless, or insane enough to be effectively so.

edited 17th Aug '14 8:02:20 PM by rikalous

Homura had familiars intelligent as birds which are some of the animals with high intelligence although not as good as primates. The witches barriers contain strong human traits and objects from human art and culture that are not just mimicking it. Homura's was a complete copy of Mitakihara put together by her familiar(they at least place everything).

The witches only attack easy targets and just kill magical girls and people who can become magical girls(Madoka was going to be killed by Kirstein without any attempt to curse her). There is meaningful text in the labyrinths(madness mantra due to insanity). Homura was still self-aware as a witch which requires intelligence.

Kirstein also made her victims use those chemicals to kill themselves, showing that she still possessed the knowledge of the reaction of the right chemicals for mass-death.

edited 17th Aug '14 8:20:42 PM by higurashimerlin

When life gives you lemons, burn life's house down with the lemons.