edit:

PLEASE READ THIS WHOLE POST BEFORE REPLYING

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Inspired by a conversation I just had in another thread.

What started it was this statement.

Yes, but respect is something people earn. It's never supposed to be given.

I replied with the following.

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See, there's a problem with this method of thinking.

Bear with me here.

1. People who think this tend not to respect people they don't see as being worthy of it. (we'll call them Group A)
2. This includes most people they've never talked to before. (who we'll call Group B)

This leads to.

• People in Group A being generally rude, blunt, (use whatever word you want to) to the people in Group B, as Group A hasn't yet talked with B long enough for B to earn A's respect.

which in turn leads to

1. Group B resenting Group A, with B then being rude to A.
2. Making A respect B even less
3. Making A even more rude to B
4. Going back to step 1 in this graph.
5. And continuing this way ad infinitum.

If you're unwilling to give out even the slightest bit of respect to people you talk to, you can't expect them to listen to anything you say. Which makes me, personally, wonder why you'd say anything at all.

Bottom line, if you want to be productive. Be subtractive with your respect-giving. Not additive.

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Am I alone on this? In general, I think an environment in which everyone starts out on a level playing field is more beneficial than one where everyone starts out thinking of each other as petty jackasses.

Basically, using a ten point scale. Start everyone on a five at least, not a zero.

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Just to deflect any possible accusations of sound biting, the full conversation was had here.

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Thread Notes

• BY THE WAY, this is not a thread where you complain about how rude Troper X, or even "certain people" are, this is a discussion, not a bitchfest.

• respect here is defined as "not being a dick to people you don't know, and being generally courteous enough to give them an opportunity to talk."

• Read this.

edited 26th Dec '10 5:38:18 PM by SpainSun

I am in full agreement. One should treat others the way they wish to be treated, and present themselves in a way they would want other people to present themselves.

By that, I do not mean other people with the exact same opinion as you. I mean the people who you disagree with.

I disagree. Just because I ain't kicking your ass for being rude doesn't mean I'm being respectful.

Respect is earned, tolerance need not be.

I give most people a very small amount of respect. It's the respect for you being a person (essentially don't be a dick to this person unless they've proven unworthy). You can lose even this by proving to be a dick or you can gain even more new and exciting respect. For the sake of productivity I am respectful to most people I meet though I will likely never respect them in a manner that I find truly meaningful. Note that this basic respect means very little to me in comparison to that which is earned and I mostly use it because it works better for me.

edited 26th Dec '10 5:26:09 PM by Aondeug

Respect is earned, tolerance need not be.

Semantics.

Basically, respect here is defined as "not being a dick to people you don't know".

I guess I'll repost this too:

My old high school biology teacher, on my first day of school, let my class know that he hated the idea that respect has to be earned. He said it made far more sense to him to give everyone 'full' repsect, with no reservations, and remove respect if a person showed themselves unworthy of it.

I remember maybe two other things from that class. Something about lipids and detritus.

Well therein lies the problem: You have a different definition of respect.

Well therein lies the problem: You have a different definition of respect.

Yours being?

Also, edited definition of respect at the top of the thread as I didn't feel it was extensive enough.

edited 26th Dec '10 5:24:49 PM by SpainSun

Also, keep in mind that while one might not be giving respect according to their definitions, it would be beneficial to give respect according to this definition.

I define respect differently than Spain, too. I think of respect as how you view the traits and actions of a person, not how you act towards that person. I think of Spain's definition being along the lines of politeness.

Regardless, Spain-ettiquette should be followed.

Politeness, Common Courtesy, Mutual Respect, whatevs.

I gave the thread two titles for a reason.

Basically, I think that, if you can find a way to say something to someone. Honestly and earnestly, without being overly offensive in the process, you should do it. Now I recognize that there are cases where that's not possible, but they're few and far between. It just seems like a lot of the "bluntness" on this site is just rudeness with a pretext, and the "rude" part is not a necessary part of what's being said.

Being offensive for its own sake is pointless, and detrimental to; making your point, convincing the other person, convincing the Third Party (which on here, would include lurkers and posters not actively involved with the conversation), and one's reputation.

I could be entirely misreading people's motivations, I've done it before. But still, I'd encourage some introspection on the part of people who engage in the behaviour I described above.

edited 26th Dec '10 5:34:20 PM by SpainSun

This definition isn't respect, though. It's manners.

Semantics again.

Or are you referring to that?

Once again, this is not an argument about semantics.

Ninja'd.

edited 26th Dec '10 5:37:21 PM by MrAHR

Well then stop worrying about respect. An argument over manners is completely different than an argument over respect!

...it's just a different term. The requirements are exactly the same. Once again, do not turn this into an argument about semantics. Everyone has different definitions for these sort of things.

edited 26th Dec '10 5:45:38 PM by MrAHR

Semantics again again.

If you want to argue about respect as I defined it, that's fine. I'm not getting roped into a definitions debate.

I generally just try and call people out on bullshit. I attempt to give people the benefit of the doubt and some level of empathy.

But being the only TRULY INTELLIGENT BEING IN THE WORLD my efforts are always wasted.

I generally just try and call people out on bullshit. I attempt to give people the benefit of the doubt and some level of empathy.

The question is, do you do both at the same time?

Whenever I hear the phrase "calling people out on bullshit" I immediately become skeptical, because it implies a few things about the speaker, but I don't want to jump to any conclusions here.

By this; do you just mean you try to correct people when they're wrong, or do you go "YOU LIE!"

From experience, I can tell you that the only thing the latter's going to do is make me think one of a couple things (or combinations of them.)

1. You're trolling
2. You don't care about the argument
3. You're trying to make me flame you for your amusement.

Similarly, having been in the position of an audience to such arguments, I generally think much the same. So you end up not convincing anyone.

edited 26th Dec '10 6:03:32 PM by SpainSun

Respect and manners are two different concepts. Call semantics all you want, it doesn't change anything.

respect here is defined as "not being a dick to people you don't know, and being generally courteous enough to give them an opportunity to talk."

If, for whatever reason, you absolutely cannot work within that parameter, then go through the thread and replace every instance of the word "respect" with "manners" in your mind.

edited 26th Dec '10 6:36:11 PM by SpainSun

I'm apathetic about an individual until they do something that warrants a change in my perception/treatment of them.

[fixed it]

edited 26th Dec '10 6:39:57 PM by Kino

edit: That's essentially what I'm going for here. I mean, I prefer "general friendliness" over "apathy", but some people just can't muster the former, and I understand that.

edited 26th Dec '10 6:47:14 PM by SpainSun

Manners and respect are different, true, but don't they generally go together?

I mean, if you're completely rude and insulting to someone, clearly you don't think they deserve respect, and therefore they don't deserve manners. If you respect someone you're going to be polite.