Metroid

I apologize if this has been posted, but I think this ties into the body/representation talk a while back:

http://www.themarysue.com/metroids-samus-aran-transgender-woman/

To be frank, I feel like the article has too many logical leaps to be taken too seriously. But I did think it was a good read and that the core concept - that Samus Aran is a transgender woman - makes a surprising amount of sense thematically. I mean, this is a character who's largely defined by a gender reveal.

I think it's a neat idea.

I like the way they analyzed the interview stuff where the developer (jokingly) said it. And the. Problematic. Implications and terminology used.

...I dunno about logical leaps? I don't think there are any in the article.

edited 1st Sep '15 3:13:07 PM by unnoun

I spent a long time trying to get a GC link cable so I could use the Fusion Suit in Prime. I really dig how totally alien it looks. I think I like the Light Suit for much the same reason; it's totally at odds with the rest of the aesthetic.

edited 1st Sep '15 3:17:53 PM by Watashiwa

Logical leaps wasn't quite the right turn of phrase. I just feel like it was a mistake to bring up Dumbledore's sexuality in comparison, when those were very different situations in how the creator dealt with them. It's a good idea and I support it, I just feel like the writer could have supported it a mite better.

edited 1st Sep '15 3:36:04 PM by TheOtherSteve

Brianna Wu is an idiot and the only "evidence" is a joke one of the developers made and the American manual describing her as a "he" to hide the Trope Namer for Samus Is a Girl.

I wouldn't give it much attention.

Ah. Insulting people. Wonderful.

I mean, first, it's difficult to disprove.

Second, it would make a lot of female video game players who were assigned a different gender at birth feel nice.

Sure, there's not much evidence. Also, I don't think the American manual's pronoun usage was even in the evidence Wu mentioned, so I think it's odd that you mention it.

edited 1st Sep '15 7:25:51 PM by unnoun

She's the Glenn Beck of feminism who's demonstrated that she has actual privilege. I'm all for LGBT rights and equality but Wu and her ilk are the very reason why I don't identify as a feminist.

And her only "evidence" actually being a raunchy joke that one of the developers made makes it even less credible.

edited 1st Sep '15 7:30:04 PM by MoreThanBored

I'm not sure "Glenn Beck of feminism" is a meaningful term to me, as I think an inalienable part of what makes Glenn Beck, y'know, Glenn Beck is his ideology.

I mean, I think you're interpreting the article in a way it's not necessarily meant to be interpreted?

The other "evidence" was the Super Nintendo Player's Guide, and Sakamoto saying that Samus being "newhalf" was "possible" in Zero Mission interviews.

Also, the article says things like

Which, to me, indicates that would really matters isn't so much that "Samus is definitely trans and you're wrong if you disagree" but that there are problems in the world and in gaming and, in an odd way, Samus being trans addresses/would address those problems, especially for the people who those problems directly affect.

The fact that you're thinking of it entirely in terms of "proof" and "evidence" indicates that you're not really understanding the actual point of the article, or said article's main point.

edited 1st Sep '15 7:36:15 PM by unnoun

What makes Glenn Beck "Glenn Beck", or Donald Trump "Donald Trump", or anything similar isn't their ideology, but the militant, confrontational way they go about it. I don't need to post the mind-blowingly stupid things that she's said, but she is just as bad as any far-right pundit.

Again, I'm pretty sure that the whole "newhalf" thing was a joke. It's certainly nothing to go declaring Samus "secretly a man" and starting edit wars on The Other Wiki over.

>point

>you

Nah. What makes them them is the fact that they have the power to get away with it, and the fact that the things they say and do and believe hurt people.

EDIT: I mean, trans women are not, in point of fact, "secretly men", and Wu said nothing like that because it's a terrible thing to say, and if she had said that she actually would be the Glenn Beck of feminism. So you've missed the point slightly more than usual.

Well done, actually.

Also, the article has nothing to do with statements of fact or edit wars on any wiki.

So.

edited 1st Sep '15 7:43:44 PM by unnoun

And that doesn't apply to militant feminists?

And while the title (Metroid's Samus Aran is a Transgender Woman. Deal With It.) is confrontational clickbait at its finest, the article basically concludes with "Okay maybe she isn't necessarily trans but why not pretend that she is?", and one of the twitter posts that she uses in her defense, from one Aria Ehren, states "Requiring proof is very problematic", which is the scariest thing I've read in weeks.

And it's hard to say that "the article has nothing to do with statements of facts" when the article's title is a (very smug) statement of fact.

edited 1st Sep '15 7:51:08 PM by MoreThanBored

Don't tend to have much power. Don't usually hurt people more than calling them out on their shit.

I mean, except for some ones that say trans women are secretly men. They're Glenn Becks of feminism.

I mean, if what you care about is having definitive facts to categorize in an encyclopedia, I can understand that.

But that's not, in point of fact, what the discussion is about. It's about ideas, and possibilities, and ambiguities and about a lack of definitive proof.

I mean, why do you assume that Samus is cis? Have you seen her birth certificate? Her genitalia? Her chromosomal pattern? Her internal reproductive organs?

I mean, she could have complete androgen insensitivity syndrome or be some other form of intersex and, because the games aren't really about that, we would have no idea. No proof one way or the other.

The point is that the assumptions we make about people are what's problematic.

That the only ways to get proof in real life with real people are invasive and, well, problematic.

That if a trans girl feels better about herself because she thinks she can relate to Samus Aran then telling her she shouldn't and that actually she's wrong is. Well.

Rude seems a little too mild a word.

...Facetiousness is lost on you.

I have been handling all of this entirely wrong.

edited 1st Sep '15 7:50:48 PM by unnoun

Have there ever been any comments made about Samus having a vagina? If not I'd say there's more evidence pointing towards her being transgender than otherwise.

Occam's Razor. If I were transgender I could also say that Mario is transgender through some obscure reference I manage to find somewhere and justify it with "it makes me feel better", but it doesn't make it true.

And titles should not be divorced from the content of their articles; they're there for a reason. This article's title is obviously meant to be confrontational ("Deal With It.") and in a sense is deceptive in terms of its content; it claims to offer a statement of certainty with its use of the word is (which is a really important word), but then concedes that they have no real proof and then chastises you for asking for proof.

If tomorrow Nintendo announced that Samus really is transgender then I wouldn't have a problem with that. It's not the idea that she's transgender, but rather the delivery. You can't just go around making claims and then claiming that it's "problematic" when people ask you for proof. It's this smug self-righteousness that makes feminism look bad to certain people.

In short, it's stupid, a waste of time and a strong justification for ad-block.

edited 1st Sep '15 8:01:50 PM by MoreThanBored

Hoooooooly crap this discussion thread went nowhere good. I think the mods on every other site I've seen this on had it right when they shut it down over there. How about we change the subject and not say things that a mod would ban just to not have to deal with?

edited 1st Sep '15 8:03:42 PM by Watashiwa

I came into this conversation at a really weird time.

My two cents- She was raised by bird people, would human concepts such as gender and gender identity even come into play?

I've almost certainly misinterpreted something and offended someone with that statement, however, so feel free to rip it apart to prove me wrong. Or something.

...What does Occam's Razor have to do with anything? Occam's razor says to use hypotheses with fewer assumptions, why are you assuming that a character that presents and identifies as female has to have a vagina?

Kinda a problematic series of assumptions.

Samus Aran does not, in point of fact, exist.

Saying she's trans is every bit as true as saying she isn't.

Except saying she's trans helps an extremely hurt population feel good, and saying she isn't. Is just sorta the status quo?

And fuck the status quo.

Or you could read the actual article and try to understand the actual damn point.

It's problematic because she is assumed to be cis until "proven" otherwise.

And it shouldn't really have to be that way.

And those certain people don't strike me as having especially good aesthetic judgement.

edited 1st Sep '15 8:05:40 PM by unnoun

x4 Isn't the whole point that assuming Cis is the Default is a bad thing?

edited 1st Sep '15 8:03:53 PM by Moth13

Rar militant feminists are the devil rar validate me while I insult a woman that's been a target of a solid year of coordinated internet harassment rar I am offended by the idea that a fictional character may be a part of a demographic I don't think the character should be a part of.

I don't see Samus as a Trans woman. Entertained the thought, dismissed it.

Am I going to invalidate people that do? Am I going to argue that the way they see this character, one who they might identify with in a sea of characters they can't, is wrong? Hell no. Death of the Author 101.

The writers (I believe. Can't actually speak for them of course) of the article are mostly just making a point; the idea that LGBT gamers are so starved for representation that they need to latch onto any dangling threads they can is ridiculous. It needs to stop.

Could Samus be that representation? I don't think so. Maybe. I mean, we all know Nintendo's pretty good about this. The hero of their most popular franchise is totally a trans man.

edited 1st Sep '15 8:06:53 PM by ShirowShirow

I mean, confrontationalism and aggressiveness can put the reader on the back foot, and cause the reader to look at their own biases and things and either make them re-examine themselves and their beliefs, or put them on the defensive and reinforce them.

So I will agree that, as tactics go, it tends to be a polarizing and divisive one. Not especially helpful.

On the other hand, from experience I can say that it tends to be a fun one.

edited 1st Sep '15 8:09:49 PM by unnoun

If a person looks very much like a female with obvious feminine biological traits, and considering that most people like that are cis females, then it is a safe assumption that that person is female unless further shown otherwise.

And I did read the article (reluctantly), and it's title is still there, as it the statement that the burden of proof is "problematic." If you want to make your own headcanon, or if you want to post something under the WMG page, then that's fine. But making smug assertions and then smugly saying that people asking for proof are "problematic" is just going to make people dislike you.

Nobody ever changed their viewpoint after having their opinions ridiculed. Worse yet, it may alienate people who initially did agree with you.

edited 1st Sep '15 8:10:56 PM by MoreThanBored

Pot. Kettle. Black.

And there we have it.

This is why we disagree.

I love debates like this. They're so revealing.

...And, for the record, no. The safest idea is to not make the assumptions in the first place.

Unless you're their physician or a significant other you really don't need to know and probably shouldn't care about what genitals another person may or may not have or been born with.

I say, be sure to make the right people dislike you.

I think Wu succeeded on that front.

The burden of proof is problematic. Because assuming that people are cis until proven otherwise is problematic.

The former follows from the latter.

I mean, you don't agree with the latter so naturally you wouldn't agree with the former.

I have.

edited 1st Sep '15 8:19:01 PM by unnoun

Holy hell.

I'll be back in a while.◊

The burden of proof is problematic.

You're right, these types of conversations are revealing.

And for example, a recent study showed that 0.5% of people in Massachusetts, where my university is, identify as transgender. That would mean that 99.5% don't. Therefore, if I saw a person who looked obviously female, then in theory there is a 1/200 chance that I'm wrong, in which case I have no problem with being corrected and apologizing.

Fostering conflict doesn't bring about acceptance. Think of Martin Luther King Jr. and Malcolm X; whose methods do you believe were more successful in the end?