Super Smash Bros.

I don't like to refer to specific buttons because the player might have changed the control scheme. Besides, 64 and Melee used a different button, further discouraging me from using either term.

@doctrain: I never said to use the other term, I said I knew them that way due to the buttons.

@Anom: It's still a major part of all Fighting games now. Brawl's infinites were pretty much its combos, and those were specifically broken. For the purposes of Smash, combos have two possible definitions; Multiple damaging hits(Melee shows a related Combo meter), or doing a combination of attacks that damage, but aren't entirely connecting. For instance, you can hit someone into the air, jump up, and hit them again. I want both back, but not as broken as Melee's was. It should be easier to get out of, yes, but the combos should exist in general, not be completely gone like Brawl did.(I'm referring to the Combos for the purpose of this that are all connected hits that you could display the meter showing each one in a row. Melee's Training Mode showed that)

Also, make the combos a bit harder to pull off.(Infinites are surprisingly difficult to pull off, notably.)

And no, your point about Wavedashing doesn't stand. Unless you mean that it was broken and shouldn't come back. It was 100% intended in the game and to work that way. Sakurai fully meant for Melee to be extremely competitive(and it was a fun game regardless of that). I want it to be a bit more like 64/Melee since Brawl was too defensive and getting a KO off was more work than it should've been. 64 was about right, if you nerfed the throws only. A very good mix. Although the overall lag in the game(with the slow speed and such) wasn't a good thing at all.

edited 9th Aug '13 7:30:12 PM by Irene

Well, okay, that's what I was saying. I wouldn't mind a few light combos, but I wouldn't want it to be as bad as in Melee. A happy medium is best for For, though personally I preferred Brawl's lack of combos to Melee's deluge.

Infinites are really bad, yeah.

edited 9th Aug '13 7:30:30 PM by Anomalocaris20

@Irene: Given our thoughts on wavedashing, and since we both read the same article, I wonder if we have different definitions of "intentional". By the way, did you read my posts about wavedashing?

The Creator said he intended for it to be in. Directly. There's no actual question of what the case is.

@Anom: That I agree with.

I'm pretty sure I read somewhere that it was an unintentional side effect of their physics, but they left it in because they didn't think it was a big deal or that it would become a mandatory competitive technique.

Not so much a big deal as Sakurai wanted the game to be competitive.

To clarify, he didn't purposely created it, but he totally wanted it in the game since it appeared during development. Maybe intentional is slightly off. Whatever.

Anyway, moving on, if you take away the general lag from the 64 engine, you could probably leave the combos just like that. It's not as ridiculous as 64/Melee's, but not as non-existent as Brawl's. That's a very nice mixture that works well for both kinds of players(Competitive and Casual).

@Irene: When I read that interview, it sounded like the guy said, "We created it completely by accident but decided to leave it in", rather than, "Wavedashing was something we set out to create and implement as an intended feature". To me, the latter is intentional while the former is not. Maybe I'm misinterpreting what he said.

EDIT: Again, this is likely a problem of personal definitions.

edited 9th Aug '13 7:36:34 PM by doctrainAUM

We already know Sakurai wants For to be a happy medium between Melee and Brawl, for the most part.

He intended to keep it in in Melee, but out of Brawl, to be clear. That's what I mean.

@Anom: Exactly. 64 just happens to be that, so far, anyway. I also enjoyed that one the most, so maybe that's just a bonus for me.

Pokemon:

• Pikachu
• Jigglypuff
• Mewtwo
• Scizor
• Ninjask
• Deoxys
• Bidoof
• Weavile
• Stunfisk
• Genesect
• Red
• Blue
• Ethan
• Lance
• May
• Wally
• Dawn
• Cynthia
• N
• Ghetsis

Metal Gear

• Solid Snake
• Raiden
• Big Boss
• Revolver Ocelot
• Grey Fox
• Meryl Silverburgh
• Otacon
• Liquid Snake
• Psycho Mantis
• Sniper Wolf
• Vulcan Raven
• Olga Gurlukovich
• Fortune
• Vamp
• Solidus Snake
• EVA
• The Pain
• The Sorrow
• Volgin
• The Boss

This is far easier then I think you intended it to be. :P

That's why I chose Ice Climber.

Metroid:

• Samus
• Zero-suit Samus
• Dark Samus
• SA-X
• Metroid
• Ridley
• Kraid
• Phantoon
• Mother Brain
• Sylux
• Weavel
• Noxus
• Kanden
• Spire
• Trace
• Rundas
• Ghor
• Gandraya
• Adam
• Anthony

Easier than I thought.

Oh joy we hit a topic I can rant on.

Smash Bros. is not, nor has it ever been, combo-oriented. It just seems that way because the gameplay in games like Melee were so fast that it looked like there were actual combos. They aren't. Any combo in that sense of the word isn't a true combo, it's the player making a correct read of the opponent's actions (The opponent can still attack and/or DI out) and punishing accordingly. There has NEVER been true combos where the opponent is entirely helpless. The way Melee did it was actually most likely the fairest way as it let you actually punish your opponent's mistakes unlike Brawl where air dodging beat pretty much anything.

I will say that L-cancelling is a dumb arbitrary mechanic and wavedashing is kind of dumb too, but it would be nice to see it return and maybe adjusted so less mobile characters get better wavedashes or something.

L-Cancelling is fine and not a problem to bring back either. It's too easy to do for most and doesn't separate players.

And no, combos in Smash are specifically multiple hits in a row that are connected. The Training Mode gives a specific Combo Meter in Melee, proving this.

Also, a lot of 64 is very easy to pull off combos as is Melee. Yes, they're pretty combo-orientated for the purposes of how Smash itself shows it. Brawl can do combos as is, but they're extremely difficult to pull off.(Again, the Combo Meter proves it exists, not fanmade definitions.)

...Or just give less mobile characters more mobility?

Like I said, I don't see the point of Wavedashing. If it's to be an alternative to moving normally then what's the point of moving normally?

What I meant was the misconception floating around here that Melee and 64 being combo oriented meant there were touch-of-deaths everywhere. Not the game's definition of combos.

Mixup opportunities. Wavedashing allows you to make unpredictable movements like going backward that isn't possible with normal dashing, or jump-canceling a shield into a wavedash to create space or something similar. There's a lot more to the idea than just mobility.

edited 9th Aug '13 9:50:01 PM by Nap1100

I still think it's rather unnatural and needless.

I have a bit of a problem with L-cancels. There's no reason to not do it once you got it down, unlike wavedashing and combos. Thus, it separates players of different skill levels without offering any strategic possibilities.

I've never really gotten into competitive Smash play, maybe this game would be a good jumping-on point.

I just thought of something after posting that. They can keep wavedashing like it was in Melee, they just need to remove the ability to cover all that ground space. How about this: After you wavedash in a direction, you cannot wavedash in that same direction for 40 frames (making numbers up here). Any attempt to do so will cause the air dodge to simply not work.

This way you can still quickly move forward and backward or wavedash to quickly close or open space, but you can't go all the way across the screen with it.

Fair?

I still disapprove of the concept. It's not so much the advantage it provides as it is the needlessness of it.

It's a needlessly complicated maneuver that only really came about because of the airdodge physics, it looks rather silly, and there's better ways to implement its benefits than to keep wavedashing.

...Almost every move or technique can be called needless. Except Shielding, and that's it.

Anyway, I don't mind if it comes back or not.

And does it matter if you forgot to L-Cancel when it only improves your game anyway? Removing the lag from moves like Downthrust is a good thing and it makes you less vulnerable to an easy attack. It was better off kept in the game and it didn't even break a thing. It didn't super improve your game either, just made it a little better, that's all. Also, most of who it helps was majorly bad characters like Link. Lastly, and correct me if I'm wrong, but when you get knocked somewhere, like say in the air, you can press the Shield button to take a Fighter Stance(not to be confused with a Taunt). That's an L-Cancel too, right? I might be wrong on that, since I didn't know the origin of the name.

The problem stems from the fact that when it's in the game, there's no reason not to use it. You might as well decrease the landing lag overall and not much would change. Unless there was an advantage to someone that didn't l-cancel, then the mechanic just seems like an arbitrary execution barrier. Arbitrary execution barriers are bad.