The New Touhou Character Alternate Interpretation Compendium!

Well, at least, one such hell. To look at it another way, 100% of the hells we've seen in Touhou are inactive. It is extremely likely that there are other hells, but we just don't know how much or how many or which ones are active or being shut down. My personal suspicion is that there are a large number of other hells, and a fair number of them (20% or so) have been/are planned to shut down. That's complete speculation, of course.

I suppose ghosts probably can't become impure. The Netherworld, however, likely could. Such impurity might confuse the 'gravity' that helps pulls souls to the afterlife... if pure beings seek a pure land, and there isn't one... it could cause problems. All pure speculation, but I can't imagine that letting the Netherworld become impure would bring any good.

Wouldn't impure ghosts be like the evil spirits that follow Orin around?

It's not impurity but grudge and hatred what makes an evil spirit, basically they are souls that were condemned to suffer in Hell, I doubt there are evil spirits in the Netherworld.

edited 28th Dec '12 6:22:35 PM by asellus111

I doubt the Netherworld can even become impure.

The Moon can because the Moon is an imitation of a land of the dead that allows the inhabitants to still be alive. And it was only pure prior to the Lunarians arrival because only bunnies lived there and bunnies are pretty cool.

But if purity is blah blah stuff about dying or whatever, well, Netherworld is pure because everybody there is dead by default. Even if you're alive.

Iunno.

My understanding is that the moon was pure (Because no life/struggle to survive), and the Lunarians went to it with their supersciencey magic to put themselves between life and death or somesuch. It's not perfect, so the moon is veeeeeery slowly becoming impure (Though only the Watatsuki's seem to have acknowledged that the purity-maintainance isn't perfect).

It could well be that the whole 'being in the Netherworld is the same as being dead' thing is effectively some sort of cosmic purity retention clause to prevent the Netherworld from becoming impure... but if it isn't, and the struggle for life can happen there, than bringing living beings to it would be dangerous.

You can't take it with you, but it turns out you don't really have to leave.

I'd float the notion that you're somehow immortal in the Netherworld if you hop over before you actually prod any pails, but it seems more likely that taking a shillelagh to the skull would make your soul pop out regardless. And leave a mess for Youmu to clean up. The point is, don't die in the Netherworld, it's rude. Yuyuko('s gardener) works hard to keep the place nice for guests, don't start corpsing it up.

Well... there might be another Hell. The one with a Silent Temple inhabited by an Astral Knight. But we're not sure if this is the same Hell as the Hell of Blazing Fires, or an entirely different Hell within the Underground/Underworld.

On the other hand, I'm also having fun imagining other potential Hells that get the funding to stay in operation. The Hell of Bitter Cold. The Hell of Acid Vapors. The Hell of Eternal Bagpipes. The Hell of Unidentifiable but Disconcerting Odors.

As for the Former Hell, I'm wondering if the Celestial Bureaucracy goofed by sticking it in a finite space underground, then fixed the problem by relocating the damned souls to a separate plane a la Heaven or the Netherworld. Still finite, but not as finite.

It's history time again! Or Wikipedia paraphrasing time.

Pure Land philosophy has always had an influence on Japanese Buddhism, but the mainstream Buddhism of Japan used to be Tendai and Shingon. Pure Land didn't exist as an independent school in Japan, until the end of the Heian era, when Japan was constantly threatened by civil war and natural disasters, and Buddhist monks were heavily involved in politics of the aristocracy.

During those times, a monk named Hōnen believed he was witnessing the Age of Dharma Decline: the inevitable dark age in which even Buddhism is corrupted. He sought a way that can bring salvation to every one, even the impoverished and women, thus founding the Japanese Pure Land School, or Jōdo-shū.

Another monk named Shinran, one day dreamt of Prince Shoutoku (believed to be an incarnation of bodhisattva Kannon/Guanyin). Guided by the dream, he became a disciple of Hōnen. Eventually he would push the Pure Land creed further, and found his own school, the "True Pure Land School", or Jōdo Shinshū.

Traditional Pure Land teaching believes in the foremost importance of nembutsu, the recitation of Amitabha's name. However, according to Shinran, the moment one believes in Amitabha, their place in Pure Land is guaranteed, and nembutsu is only a way of showing one's gratefulness.

As you may start to feel, the different schools of Japanese Buddhism have a strong correlation to social stratification. Only aristocrats could afford to be educated in the esoteric knowledge and complex rituals of Shingon; the Zen school, with its focus on simplicity of intent, would become the guiding philosophy of the samurai; Jōdo-shū and Jōdo Shinshū, meanwhile, are for everyone. If you've played a game set in Sengoku-era, and encountered Ikkō-ikki, the rebellous Buddhist peasants - that's Jōdo Shinshū right there.

Next time: everything comes together, why ZUN might have misunderstood Saigyou when making PCB, what's in common between Yuyuko and Byakuren.

As a side note, the English wikipedia biography for Hōnen mentions him not discriminating against women who were menstruating. The belief of menstruation as impure originated from Shintoism. Hi, impurity, we meet again.

edited 30th Dec '12 5:34:15 PM by atrican

Well, in this context I would think that the actual Buddhist beliefs are less important than the Shinto beliefs. As you say, ZUN hadn't researched Buddhism yet, so he probably just heard the term "Pure Land" and correlated it with the Shinto concept of impurity. In that sense, the Netherworld is more Shinto than Buddhist (despite Shinto having no real conception of an afterlife). ZUN seems to have interpreted it as "The Land with no Impurity" and is therefore deathless.

Or you could just say it's a pun, and not a serious interpretation by ZUN. As far as I remember, it was only briefly referenced in CILR, in a chapter that was clearly more about impurity than the Netherworld.

edited 29th Dec '12 2:33:01 AM by Clarste

I think you are missing the point. Paradise is further away from the Moon. Even if Maribel's distance was incorrect, we know this as true. As Paradise is not seen by them. For being so big, it would definitely be visible, if it is closer to Earth than the moon.

That said, we know for a fact that Heaven is closer to Earth than the moon. I believe this is mentioned in Silent Sinner in Blue or Cage in Lunatic Runagate. However, we know this is not true in the case of Paradise. And therefore we conclude that they are different places.

It is mentioned that she is one of the more talented ones. I take that to mean she is at least in the top ten if not the best. Kind of like how it is mentioned that Reimu is especially talented. I take that to mean she is the best shrine maiden around, taking into account of all her ancestors.

Also, as we have seen of the moon rabbit army, they aren't very impressive. And Reisen is definitely more impressive than those rabbits.

My point is that the moon rabbits would not know who died by name. They panic, they run around, they can only assume that lots of other rabbits died. It is the perception of chaos that is causing this. Even if none of the rabbits died, that isn't the point. The moon rabbits think some of their companions died and thus relay such to Reisen.

Kind of like what was happening with Yorihime in Silent Sinner in Blue. Yorihime never summoned anything, and yet the perception was that she was summoning gods and trying to take over the moon.

I don't think this is much of an assumption. It is pretty close to fact. We know there exists more than 1 Hell, since it has been mentioned that the Hell of Blazing Fires is discontinued due to budget issues. So, we can infer from that the other Hells are still active and not closed down.

Komachi also mentioned this to Utsuho in Hisoutensoku, source - http://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/Touhou_Hisoutensoku/Translation/Komachi%27s_Script#Komachi_wins_Utsuho:

@Moon and Netherworld: The moon is pure because there is no life on it. The Netherworld can't become impure, because there can't be any life on it. If you visit the Netherworld, you have to die a little. At least I think that is how it works.

edited 29th Dec '12 5:57:54 PM by Starx

Komachi, you are not very good at persuading. If it's so attractive that even the inmates want to stay, why in the world would the workers want to leave?

But ok, good, looks like there's a 'new hell'. Though, the Hell of Blazing fires and the deserted hell that the cities in seem like two separate things, which is a bit confusing. Also, I'm under the understanding that there ar emultiple hells 'at a time'. Perhaps not, though.

"Why would something that dangerous be aboveground? " That in particular gets me. The hell ravens are like... the fairies of the old hell. Reimu and company take them down in a single shot, generally.

Well, Reimu and co and not normal people. Komachi may be referring to their danger towards the populas in general and that they should not be above ground. Kind of like the evil spirits in Wild and Horned Hermit. They are probably not very strong, but they are still dangerous.

Also, Okuu does have a win quote against Komachi, but it is far shorter. It just mentions how she wants to see the new hell.

Hell of Blazing Fires is a location within Old Hell. The part with fire.

edited 30th Dec '12 7:15:23 PM by Prime32

Heh, the inhabited quarter of Old Hell would be plenty hellish for the average not-so-innocent human sent to live there. Even the most oni-like of human spirits are still fundamentally human and having mostly Oni for drinking buddies (that can't be refused) would stop being fun very quickly.

edited 31st Dec '12 5:10:23 PM by Recon5

More proof that Marisa isn't an 'ordinary' human. She loves those folks.

She's the series' duteragonist. In Gensokyo M Cs can do whatever they want.

...I think we got off topic somewhere.

Time for a vote?

I'd say so, yes

I believe we have Miko, Kosuzu, and the PC-98 games left

And Murasa...

First vote list of the new year wooooo

Kosuzu; Miko; the Captain; Reisen II: Reisen Hell; Kasen's Menagerie; Nameless Bake-Danuki; Shinki and/or Yumeko; Yuki, Mai, Luize and Sara; Yuuka and/or Elly; Mugetsu and Gengetsu and/or Kurumi and Orange; Yumemi and Chiyuri; Rikako, Kana, Kotohime, Ellen, Sokrates, Ruukoto, and Mimi-Chan; Meira, Rika, and Genji; Konngara, Kikuri, Sariel, Elis, YuugenMagan, and Shingyoku; Mima; PC-98 Nameless Midboss Roundup; or Other. Rin Satsuki

Miko

Miko

Hey, I haven't even written my secret report on the Netherworld info revealed in IAMP. I don't have the time to write Touhou posts for all day, you know, otherwise I'd already have finished the "Japanese nirvana" series a week ago, AND translated the HM manual.txt for you. Instead, I spent most of this week doing my day job and visiting my family.

A few more days, please.

edited 1st Jan '13 5:07:05 AM by atrican

Miko, Yuuka...and the new girl I guess?

I know nothing about her.