Paradox Games

I think the last thing they should do before putting CK 2's development to bed is adding depth to the converter and patching it up. It's too much work to keep updating it alongside the other patches, but the Grand Campaign feeling is definitely a draw for a lot of us.

I just want to conquer the world and rule it for over a Millenia, is that too much to ask?

End goal is to have a CK 2 playthrough that leaves me with enough of a headstart to either own the world before Vicky's timeline, or to conquer the remainders in Vicky and spend HOI 4 cackling madly

edited 24th Feb '15 10:30:37 AM by Joesolo

I'm baaaaaaack

I don't think they are ending CK 2 development so soon. It is still selling, as far I am aware, so why make another? Not to mention Paradox is know to keep some development for years and years. The last expansion pack for EU 3 came 4 years after the initial release, and the last patch (which included balance changes) was released 2 years after that, just before the EU 4 release.

Honestly, with all the expanding they've done with the world map, into areas that weren't necessarily relevant to European society within the time frame of most of the game (India) I don't expect development on CK 2 to end til they've incorporated the Steppes between Europe and China, and the Eastern coastal regions of the Americas into the CK 2 map. Charlemagne the man gave us the Karling Ball, and we wound up with an expansion where we could be him, or fight to thwart him. So giving us a chance to influence the Steppes and potentially prevent the Mongol invasion? Sounds like par for the course.

And then there's the Americas. The Aztecs weren't relevant in real life, but the Sunset Invasion made them so for those of us who have it. A chance to thwart them ahead of time, or to take control over them/their ancestors also seems par for the course. Granted, it'd be a different style of play for both, but Paradox has been experimenting with that to start with. And if a Steppe Horde expansion paves the way for playing as unlanded characters, it makes it more likely that we'll get a Theocracy expansion as well.

Yea, I've got mixed feelings on the India expansion. On the one hand, I've got an awesome save file where I've declared myself Prestor John, Emperor of Three Indias^note  By my understanding, Europeans were confused as to whether India was in Ethiopia, Arabia, or actual India for awhile. I've made that a non-issue . On the other, India was barely in touch with Europe at this point in history outside of long-distance trade routes that rarely had people traveling the whole way themselves.

I'm baaaaaaack

Right. At least expanding into those other two areas makes sense. Even if one of them only does so because of another expansion. Right now we can only play as Genghis Khan when he reaches the border of Europe. But what if we want to simulate his rise? Or heck, what if we want to take his ancestors and wage a campaign that sees an invasion come a century or two earlier?

And I know there's challenge gamers who would be happy to take the Aztecs into Europe and create their own Sunset Invasion from an Empire that spans both Americas instead of the Florida Empire we get from the game.

Arumba talking about the latest patch is always great.

They won't create a huge map extension just for those who bought Sunset Invasion. That is way too much work, specially when you consider the special mechanics there would need to be just for the ocean travel. The India extension was added to everyone and even on base game you can possibly interact with them by playing Byzantine, Alan or Ethiopia. Muslims, of course, can get there quite easily (or start there), and pagans and republics are not that far from it. The map expansion adds to the game of a lot of people.

Also, you say India is not relevant to Europa, which is kinda true, but Crusader King was never about Europe alone, even without expansions. Sure, it is centered on Christianity, but the Bizantines were playable since the beginning and, of course, the crusades lead even Western Europe to the Middle East. Middle East was important since the begining and, even if only as antagonists for the player, the Middle East is badly represented without India. The artificial borders means that Persia (which was always a powerful state) was badly modeled and could only interact and expand west. Now they often can be kept busy dealing with the East, which improves gameplay overall in the region, even if you are not playing as them directly.

PS:Expanding more into the steppes is more plausible than America, of course, but it runs under the similar artificial border as the Persians had. Right now, the artificial borders are, at last, limited to a couple of checkpoints, with the Himalayas and the Taklamakan Desert serving as natural borders. Furthermore, aside from the Mongols there isn't many huge powerful empires right at the borders, so the lack of external interaction is a little less egregious. Expanding the map until it touches China makes their absence more notable, and expanding the map to include China would be a huge drain in resources and processing power. I can see they expanding the map a bit more, like they did with West Africa, but another thing s in the same scale of Rajas of India might be a bit too much.

edited 24th Feb '15 1:17:54 PM by Heatth

But you don't really need special mechanics for the ocean travel. The Vikings didn't head straight west over the open ocean, they hopped from island to island, from Iceland to Greenland and then settled in Vinland. You could skip most of the ocean and just curve the accessible map to include the coastal regions. Not saying they will, but the argument about special mechanics for sea travel isn't 100%. It might be good to introduce naval battles anyway, since I don't think there was ever a period where two enemy fleets just said "Hi! Bye!" and went on their way on a regular basis.

And as long as attrition's high enough, it'll discourage long distance travel from southern Europe as a colonization effort. Of course that just gives the Vikings even more advantages that they don't need. It also gives us incentive to take them out more quickly before they get entrenched in America.

But the Aztecs, in Sunset Invasion, do go through the ocean. They can show anywhere in the western coast, not just Iceland. As for the attrition, Paradox still haven't fixed naval attrition in EU 4, so I doubt they will add it to CK 2 (they, in fact, removed in an early patch).

Also, one thing you are not considering: America is huge. Even taking just the coast, they would need to populate the whole region, make it interesting and then figure out ways it can interact with Europe. That is way more work than India.

Anyone who thinks that China or even the Americas could be added without breaking the game has been ignoring the devs dismal performance at basically everything since ROI, even ignoring the fact that South America doesn't even make sense considering (apart from one doomed Norse settlement) the Americas had zero contact with Europe/Middle East during this period.

edited 24th Feb '15 2:22:56 PM by Rationalinsanity

Politics is the skilled use of blunt objects.

I live in America. I know it's huge. I am fully aware of the thousands of miles of coastline involved. The actual time period of the Charlemagne expansion really wasn't worth the effort they made for it, either, but we still got it. The mechanics could have been released alone without expanding the timeline backwards, and it would have been just as good. It's just a question of whether Paradox wants to do it, and how well they can optimize the game to make it work.

ETA: Sunset Invasion renders that last statement irrelevant for this game. The Vikings met the Aztecs, were sacrificed, and gave up Longship technology. Cue a massive invasion a couple centuries later, and an Aztec Empire spanning from Mexico through Florida.

edited 24th Feb '15 2:20:47 PM by Journeyman

Most people don't activate Sunset Invasion, it was a joke they sold for spare change. It shouldn't be taken as a roadmap for future development, especially when most people don't use SI and therefore the Aztecs aren't a fantasy superpower capable of launching Operation Overlord scale invasions in the Middle Ages.

Politics is the skilled use of blunt objects.

I never turn the damn thing off. Though I never get that far into the game anyway. As an alternate history it's not that bad of one. I mean, it's overpowered as Hell for what we see from EU 4, but it only needs toned down, not gotten rid of. If the Aztecs had Viking tech, they probably would have overwhelmed their neighbors and taken over large swathes of the Americas.

I've turned it on exactly once- My Roman Empire playthrough wherein I was getting bored, wanted a real challenge. Turned into a matter of gathering enough troops to ROF Lstomp their hordes without said troops strving. That way there'd be a challenge once I got to the new world.

Unfortunately, in EU 4 all the other nations in Europe hated me so I had a challenge anyway

edited 24th Feb '15 2:33:33 PM by Joesolo

I'm baaaaaaack

Besides, I don't think there's very much more sensible stuff they CAN add after this that isn't just patching up the game to work better. Maybe some flavor stuff for the bland pagan faiths, but that's about it. If they are going to extend development more than a year or two from now, they'll probably extend the map and add more nonsensical things. Heck, even if they don't do the full coast, they might add little colonizable sections of America to give Norse Pagans somewhere to run when the Catholics curbstomp their European holdings.

Sunset Invastion was created more or less on the devs spare time and is basically an event pack with new graphics. No new mechanic was complex scripting was done for that DLC (unlike every other non cosmetic). Also, the effort of jsut creating a new political situation for the same map (Charles Magne) is in no way comparable to the effort of adding a a whole new continent that is at last as big as the previous ones (North America is much bigger, of course, but we are only talking about the coast).

They can add more to Africa, they can add more mechanics for trade, they can add more mechanics for migration and steppes... There is tons more they can do then expand on an specific DLC that not everyone owns.

Just about all of that could be rolled out in a year or two if they really wanted it.

Maybe. But in an year or two for now there will be 5 years since release, which might be when they actually start working on CK 3. And I don't think the "lets add America to our medieval game" is what they would want to add length to the game. Sunset Invasion was an out there DLC that they did quickly and cheaply. I don't think they would even consider making a humongous add on to that. Their main focus is still historical gameplay. It is more likely for them to add China or the rest of Africa then to randomly throw in America.

You're probably right about them not adding in America. Considering every map addition in CK 2 just takes away from the exploration aspect of EU 4. But I don't really think they're going to do a CK 3. They don't need to. Certainly not before finishing Vicky 3. And preferably not until they have a Cold War game, considering the one they'd been working on tanked and needs to be redone.

I'd want another Rome game before we get another CK.

I never suggested they would release CK 3 before Vic 3. But they might start working on it 2 years from now (meaning a release in 3 years from now). By them Vic 3 will probably be released already.

• CK 2 with the Empire of Europe, Africa, and Western Asia
• Much improved and more substantial CK 2 to EU 4 converter
• America-Eurasia-Africa-Australia Empire in EU 4
• extensive EU 4 to V3 converter
• V3 is essentially the Empire as an EU (irl) that is at UN (irl) levels.
• V3 to Ho I 4 converter in this sense is essentially just "modernizing" the in-game world lol
• Ho I 4 is same as V3, that all countries are vassals of one Imperial Dynasty, but would still be at a "world war" with each other, LOL

edited 24th Feb '15 7:40:20 PM by entropy13

I'm reading this because it's interesting. I think. Whiskey, Tango, Foxtrot, over.

I seem to recall one of the devs basically saying "We'd like to extend CKII to China, but trying to do that with the current game would be crazy and basically unplayable".

---

So far as I can tell, there are pretty much no problems that can't be solved by drowning them in LC retinues. Great in skirmish, great in melee, and stackwiping in pursuit.

edited 25th Feb '15 10:31:17 AM by Balmung

I just got faced with a sweet Karmic Death in CKII.

My Emperor had a lot of bad traits (cruel, gluttonous, greedy) and no real positive ones, so I roleplayed him as a tyrant. I decided that the War focus would be most in character for him. I had him duel a rival and, because he was a tyrant, I had him kill his opponent. All of the now-dead rival's children became my character's rivals. One of them started a plot to kill me and I couldn't get her to end the plot, so I had her assassinated. Sadly, my involvement became public. Her children all became my rivals. When her eldest son came of age, I dueled him. This time, he won and killed me just like I killed his grandfather.

Dueling's great. It's like assassination with less hassle (and slightly less dishonor) if you have good personal combat skill.

Also, I'm so close to establishing the Empire of Ivalice that I can taste it. I mean, I technically can do it, but I'm trying to get one or two more de jure kingdoms, and I've almost got Volga Bulgaria and Perm in addition to all of de jure Scandinavia, Rus (and half of Ruthenia), Scotland, Pomerania, Lithuania, and some chunks of Wales and England Ordallia that I drifted into my kingdom (the duchies of Cornwall and Northumbria). Also, got an oddball inheritance on Santiago (well, one of my vassal dynasts did), thus securing a second Cathar holy site. Two holy wars and I can add Koln, and if Byzantium keeps up the pressure, Rome and Jerusalem could follow soon after.

Also, the reformed Tengrists have as good as won their Great Holy War against Hungary, which is screwed because they went Orthodox and nobody of any consequence is Orthodox anymore. And the new Papess tried to declare a Crusade for Sicily, and promptly re-tanked the Catholic moral authority by getting owned in the Crusade. In part because BYZ is big, and in part because I can solve pretty much anything by throwing LC at it.