Doctor Who

oh my god

why is that a thing

...I mean, it released in December of 2010. The Big Finish audio version.

It was a thing that was sold on CDs. For, y'know, money. That some people bought.

Just knowing that makes me die a little inside.

The name "Celestial Toymaker" is racist? Or does he have a proper name nobody brings up because it's so racist?

Celestial

I mean, it's explained in the actual essay? In the link?

Do people just not click links?

edited 20th Oct '14 7:00:49 PM by unnoun

I never heard of that. I thought he was just "celestial" because he was a godlike being out in space somewhere.

The Most Totally Closed Mind (The Celestial Toymaker.)

You are confirming my "not clicking links" theory.

Man, I wish that the Doctor had used a cannon. Then we can put the debate whether cannon exists in Doctor Who to rest.

Oh wait...

I knew about that meaning of celestial because of a book about dragons and uptight naval officers.

Edit: It suddenly occurs that the Celestial Madonna was a half-Vietnamese woman. Who married a space tree. That was meat puppeting her dead boyfriend.

But the point being that its possible that it was a play on that meaning of celestial all along which makes the story that much worse than it already was.

Yay!

edited 20th Oct '14 7:05:55 PM by Bocaj

Rose used a cannon once.

...I kinda like that Turn Left had a Time Machine with Mirrors and Static Electricity in it.

And I find it sorta neat that, the fact that a Time Machine used static electricity was enough for the Doctor to guess that the Daleks were involved somehow.

I mean. The Daleks are kinda static creatures? Unchanging?

Like the thing with the Cybermen being weak to gold. The sci-fi explanation is actually kinda weak compared to the weird alchemical mystical one.

edited 20th Oct '14 7:11:51 PM by unnoun

They fly now and don't need static electricity. Plus once they were religious fundies instead of nazis.

"We tried positive and negative electricity, but neither works. So we tried static."

I'm not quite sure whether Daleks using static electricity was meant to be a pun to their static nature: their first appearance have them using static electricity because that's the kind of "energy" that people associate with gliding on the floor, which the first Daleks were kind of forced to be on until they fixed that problem in Dalek Invasion of Earth.

A Trickster or a Warrior (The Ribos Operation)

I'm posting quotes I like, or that I think illustrate points.

I mean. I can post some Shabogan Graffiti quotes if anyone wants?

The Commodity Strikes Back.

But before asking a question about the quotes, maybe reading the essay they're from that I'm linking might be a good idea first?

EDIT: Or, y'know. Bug the writer about it instead of me?

I mean. Just some possible thoughts?

edited 20th Oct '14 7:42:19 PM by unnoun

Also Ten is kinda really self-righteous. I'd go so far as to say that it's his main character trait.

I remember a quote, I can't remember by who, saying that ethics are a middle class thing. The rich can't be bothered with them and the poor can't afford to have them.

edited 20th Oct '14 8:04:29 PM by asterism

...Was I too mean there? I think I was too mean.

Sorry!

This is my punishment.

EDIT: I mean. That video really does give me this profound sense of... I'm going to say futility.

EDIT: I want to be Jane if I grow up.

EDIT: So apparently Human Nature is getting a re-release. Finally.

That's neat.

edited 20th Oct '14 9:32:39 PM by unnoun

I think that essay was reading waaaaaaay too much into the title. Besides that and the dress, the Toymaker doesn't have anything that'd mark that he's supposed to be Chinese. I don't think that anyone even used that word that way by the 1960's.

Except that he provided evidence that the word was still being used that way. And pointed out that even if it wasn't the serial contains the "n" word. And the blatantly racist accent of the guy playing the Toymaker.

What if you just called him "The Toymaker", not using the word "Celestial" at all?

There's some lines from the novelization. Which, y'know, was done by the original script editor for the serial.

And a few sentences later:

Yes he was played by a white guy. So was most of the cast of Marco Polo.

Yay Taiey!

edited 21st Oct '14 5:34:17 AM by unnoun

Wait, what Chinese dress? the Celestial Toymaker is clearly based off of the face playing cards. It's meant to go with his whole "games" theme.

I mean, Gerry Davis seems to disagree with you.

...And the face playing cards may also be Chinese dress.

The case that the Celestial Toymaker is a "racist" character is awfully weak. Mandarin robes aside, does Micheal Gough ever look or act like he's Chinese? No. Does he mock Chinese culture? No. Does the story itself ever address the subject in any way? No.

If it's all about an English actor supposedly playing a Chinese man, then we'd better be prepared to toss Marco Polo out on its ear as well. Not to mention a English actor playing a Mexican in "The Enemy of the World", which is clearly racist. I mean, come on, how dare they?

There's his affected accent. It's definitely not Received Pronunciation. Or any British accent whatsoever.

I mean, there's also the fact that the Toymaker is stupid.

See, the difference between Toymaker and Talons is that Talons is actually well-made and had clever writing. Which in some ways might make the racism worse. Easier to dismiss, ignore.

As a serial, The Celestial Toymaker is kinda dull. And poorly-written. And doesn't seem to have an actual point to existing.

edited 21st Oct '14 5:44:35 AM by unnoun

When I listen to Micheal Gough speak in "the Celestial Toymaker", I don't hear that much difference between how he sounds in "Arc of Infinity" or the Batman films. I honestly don't hear this "foreign accent" that you or Mr. Sandifer claim is there. I just hear Gough speaking.

All that other stuff about the character being stupid or having no point to existing or badly written or whatever is neither here nor there when it comes to the question of racism.

edited 21st Oct '14 5:49:15 AM by andersonh1

I mean. His logic puzzle is blatantly Towers of Hanoi.

...Goddammit I have less than five minutes.

And, again, there's the novelization by the fucking script editor. I don't think you want to argue intent on this one.

Hell, as script editors go Gerry Davis is the one that's known for rewriting scripts uncredited a lot. He gets a lot of the credit for the Cybermen. They're jointly owned by his estate and Pedler's.

I mean, the same is not true of, say, the Daleks, who aren't partly owned by Whitaker.

edited 21st Oct '14 5:51:07 AM by unnoun

Never seen (or heard, whatever) Celestial Toymaker so I can't comment but I'd like to share something I found on wtffanfiction:

This is honestly kind of wonderful.

edited 21st Oct '14 5:53:59 AM by PurpleDalek