History YMMV / ZonesOfThought

** ''The Children of the Sky'': [[spoiler: Vendacious]] upholds the tradition of horrifically evil villains and maybe even surpasses his predecessors, if not in scale and inventiveness of evil deeds, then in [[ForTheEvulz sheer sadism]] and [[EvilIsPetty pettiness]]. This guy adopts most of Flenser's methods, such as manipulation, treachery, absolute ruthlessness, and totalitarian control through physical and mental torture. And uses them to pit the two greatest centers of civilization in the world against each other, when neither side has any real reason for conflict. [[spoiler: Vendacious]] thinks that justifications are for the weak; he recognizes that his actions are meant to [[ForTheEvulz stroke his own ego and enjoy the feeling of power]], and is perversely proud of that. He [[BadBoss deliberately makes his own underlings' lives hell]], just to see with how much tyranny he can get away with.

** ''A Fire Upon the Deep'': Flenser [[NamesToRunAwayFromReallyFast got his name]] from his first steps as an EvilutionaryBiologist -- vivisection. Later, after becoming a ruler, he went far, far beyond that, among other things essentially turning MindRape of his subjects into a semi-industrial process. Flenser is a [[ItsAllAboutMe heartless sociopath]], who demands absolute loyalty from his underlings, but has none to them. To him, everyone is a tool, although [[ManipulativeBastard he can hide that well until the time comes]]. He murders followers and discards even his trusted bodyguards without a second thought. His own second-in-command (who, as revealed later, was essentially his offspring as well) hated him more than anything in the world, but too mentally scarred to resist. His striving to {{take over the world}} seems almost not worth mentioning compared to his other aspects. The book gives many glimpses into Flenser's mind and about the only non-horrible thing there is his ability to enjoy the beauty of nature.

** ''The Children of the Sky'': [[spoiler: Vendacious]] upholds the tradition of horrifically evil villains and maybe even surpasses his predecessors, if not in scale and inventiveness of evil deeds, then in [[ForTheEvulz sheer sadism]] and [[EvilIsPetty pettiness]]. This guy adopts most of the old Flenser's methods, such as manipulation, treachery, absolute ruthlessness, and totalitarian control through physical and mental torture. And uses them to pit the two greatest centers of civilization in the world against each other, when neither side has any real reason for conflict. [[spoiler: Vendacious]] thinks that justifications are for the weak; he recognizes that his actions are meant to [[ForTheEvulz stroke his own ego and enjoy the feeling of power]], and is perversely proud of that. He [[BadBoss deliberately makes his own underlings' lives hell]], just to see with how much tyranny he can get away with.

** ''A Fire Upon The Deep'': Flenser [[NamesToRunAwayFromReallyFast got his name]] from his first steps as an EvilutionaryBiologist -- vivisection. Later, after becoming a ruler, he went far, far beyond that, among other things essentially turning MindRape of his subjects into a semi-industrial process. Flenser is a [[ItsAllAboutMe heartless sociopath]], who demands absolute loyalty from his underlings, but has none to them. To him, everyone is a tool, although [[ManipulativeBastard he can hide that well until the time comes]]. He murders followers and discards even his trusted bodyguards without a second thought. His own second-in-command (who, as revealed later, was essentially his offspring as well) hated him more than anything in the world, but too mentally scarred to resist. His striving to {{take over the world}} seems almost not worth mentioning compared to his other aspects. The book gives many glimpses into Flenser's mind and about the only non-horrible thing there is his ability to enjoy the beauty of nature.

** ''A Deepness in the Sky'': Tomas Nau leads The Emergents. As part of their defeat of the rival Qeng Ho, Nau rapes and kills their fleet commander in front of her daughter. Following that Nau has the daughter mind-wiped and charms her into falling for him. Because the mind-wipe is imperfect, every so often Qiwi remembers what happened, tries to kill Nau, who then has her scrubbed and starts the process again. This continues for decades.

** It is stated explicitly in Chapter Eight in a Fire Upon the Deep that Pham is from a male-dominated culture, unlike the rest of humanity - which Sjandra is surprised at, as 'virtually the opposite of the matriarchy that all Beyonder humanity descended from.'

** In ''The Children of the Sky'', Nevil Storherte spends most of the novel coming across as a weaselly but charismatic manipulator, hungry for power. Not particularly violent; he is not apparently complicit with some violent kidnappings early on (that is, he's complicit with the kidnappings, just not with them being violent), and when violence is done for his benefit, it's generally shown to be Vendacious indulging his truly evil urges rather than acting on Nevil's orders. So all in all, the only real harm he does seems to be due to his his seditious actions, not any actual violence or violent orders. Then, quite suddenly, he [[spoiler:fires an explosive WaveMotionGun into a crowd of civilians in an attempt to kill one person who ''might'' be there]]. Later, he even blames--''privately'', suggesting that he ''actually believes what he's saying''--his intended target for what happened.

* MemeticMutation: Hexapodia is the key insight!

** ''A Fire Upon The Deep'': Flenser [[NamesToRunAwayFromReallyFast got his name]] from his first steps as an EvilutionaryBiologist -- vivisection. Later, after becoming a ruler, he went far, far beyond that, among other things essentially turning MindRape of his subjects into a semi-industrial process. Flenser is a [[ItsAllAboutMe heartless sociopath]], who demands absolute loyalty from his underlings, but has none to them. To him, everyone is a tool, although [[ManipulativeBastard he can hide that well until the time comes]]. He murders followers and discards even his trusted bodyguards without a second thought. His own second-in-command (who, as revealed later, was essentially his offspring as well) hated him more than anything in the world, but too mentally scarred to resist. His striving to {{take over the world}} seems almost not worth mentioning compared to his other aspects. The book gives many glimpses into Flenser's mind and about the only non-horrible thing there is his ability to enjoy the beauty of nature.

** Tomas Nau from ''A Deepness in the Sky'' leads The Emergents . As part of their defeat of the rival Qeng Ho, Nau rapes and murders their fleet commander in front of her daughter. Following that Nau has the daughter mind-wiped and charms her into falling for him. Because the mind-wipe is imperfect, every so often Qiwi remembers what happened, tries to kill Nau, who then has her scrubbed and starts the process again. This continues for decades.
** Flenser from ''A Fire Upon The Deep'' [[NamesToRunAwayFromReallyFast got his name]] from his first steps as an EvilutionaryBiologist -- vivisection. Later, after becoming a ruler, he went far, far beyond that, among other things essentially turning MindRape of his subjects into a semi-industrial process. Flenser is a [[ItsAllAboutMe heartless sociopath]], who demands absolute loyalty from his underlings, but has none to them. To him, everyone is a tool, although [[ManipulativeBastard he can hide that well until the time comes]]. He murders followers and discards even his trusted bodyguards without a second thought. His own second-in-command (who, as revealed later, was essentially his offspring as well) hated him more than anything in the world, but too mentally scarred to resist. His striving to {{take over the world}} seems almost not worth mentioning compared to his other aspects. The book gives many glimpses into Flenser's mind and about the only non-horrible thing there is his ability to enjoy the beauty of nature.
** [[spoiler: Vendacious]] from ''The Children of the Sky'' upholds the tradition of horrifically evil villains and maybe even surpasses his predecessors, if not in scale and inventiveness of evil deeds, then in [[ForTheEvulz sheer sadism]] and [[EvilIsPetty pettiness]]. This guy adopts most of the old Flenser's methods, such as manipulation, treachery, absolute ruthlessness, and totalitarian control through physical and mental torture. And uses them to pit the two greatest centers of civilization in the world against each other, when neither side has any real reason for conflict. Any justification for this, or grand goal behind this? [[spoiler: Vendacious]] thinks that justifications are for the weak - he recognizes, that his actions are meant to stroke his own ego and enjoy the feeling of power, and is perversely proud of that. He deliberately makes his own underlings' lives hell, just to see with how much tyranny he can get away with.

* MoralEventHorizon: Tomas Nau: when we meet him he's already over the horizon by several million klicks -- but it takes time for the truth to come out. If he hadn't already passed it before, we see several [=MEHs=] for him in text, but the biggest one is probably [[spoiler: that he keeps Qiwi as a lover while still keeping around video footage of the time he raped and murdered her mother; then repeatedly allows her to find out about this and then wipes her memory of the event]].

* GeniusBonus: There are subtle hints throughout ''A Fire Upon The Deep'' that Sjandra Kei is a matriarchal society. One of which is the fact that nearly every character's last name ends in -ndot. As in "Dottr" or "Daughter of," in keeping with Scandinavian naming conventions.

* IronWoobie: Pham Newen. [[spoiler:His highest dream was to make the Qeng Ho a permanent civilization and beat the limitations of the Slow Zone. Instead he was betrayed and his followers scattered across space and time. Dug out of the hole he chose to die in, he discovers Focus may make his dream possible - at far too high a price - and gives it up. ''Then'' he discovers, quite by accident, the Zones of Thought that would make his dream ''truly'' possible...and gets them ''backward,'' ultimately ending up a semi-automaton of a Power. He couldn't buy a break with all the archives in the High Beyond.]]

** [[spoiler: Vendacious]] from ''The Children of the Sky'' upholds the tradition of horrifically evil villains and maybe even surpasses his predecessors, if not in scale and inventiveness of evil deeds, then in [[ForTheEvulz sheer sadism]] and [[EvilIsPetty pettiness]]. This guy adopts most of the old Flenser's methods, such as manipulation, treachery, absolute ruthlessness, and totalitarian control through physical and mental torture. And uses them to pit the two greatest centers of civilization in the world against each other, when neither side has any real reason for conflict. Any justification for this, or grand goal behind this? [[spoiler: Vendacious]] thinks that justifications are for the weak - he recognizes, that his actions are meant to stroke his own ego and enjoy the feeling of power, and is perversely proud of that. He deliberately makes his own underlings' lives hell, just to see with how much tyranny he can get away with. [[spoiler: As it happened in the end, with less than he thought.]]

** Tomas Nau from ''A Deepness in the Sky'' and, apparently, the entire ruling class of Emergents. It seems like Thomas Nau in particular is trying to collect atrocities the way normal people collect stamps. Rape, genocide, and slavery are his favorites, and the he has all sorts of futuristic tools to help him with all three.
** The original Flenser and Steel from ''A Fire Upon the Deep'', although both the new Flenser and [[spoiler:the Steel remnant]] are actually good-aligned, due to the addition or subtraction of members of their packs - Tines function as group minds whose identities and personalities [[StarfishAliens change]] with the composition of their packs.
** [[spoiler: Vendacious]] hits this stage in ''Children of the Sky''. Not that he wasn't a sadistic and selfish asshole who betrayed his country and parent [[ForTheEvulz apparently for the hell of it]] in the first book, but in the sequel he gets alot more screentime to establish [[ChronicBackstabbingDisorder the true]] [[FantasticRacism scope]] [[ItsAllAboutMe of his]] [[TortureTechnician evilness]].

** Flenser and Steel from ''A Fire Upon the Deep'', although this only applies to the past Flenser -- by the time Flenser appears in the story, he's partly a different person, due to the Tines being small-scale hive minds. [[StarfishAliens It's complicated.]]

* [[IronWoobie Titanium Woobie]]: Pham Newen. [[spoiler:His highest dream was to make the Qeng Ho a permanent civilization and beat the limitations of the Slow Zone. Instead he was betrayed and his followers scattered across space and time. Dug out of the hole he chose to die in, he discovers Focus may make his dream possible - at far too high a price - and gives it up. ''Then'' he discovers, quite by accident, the Zones of Thought that would make his dream ''truly'' possible...and gets them ''backward,'' ultimately ending up a semi-automaton of a Power. He couldn't buy a break with all the archives in the High Beyond.]]

* [[IronWoobie Titanium Woobie]]: Pham Newen. [[spoiler:His highest dream was to make the Qeng Ho a permanent civilization and beat the limitations of the Slow Zone; he was betrayed, his followers scattered across space and time. He discovers Focus may make his dream possible - at far too high a price - and gives it up. Then he discovers, quite by accident, the Zones of Thought that would make his dream ''truly'' possible...and gets them ''backward,'' ultimately ending up a semi-automaton of a Power. He couldn't buy a break with all the archives in the High Beyond.]]

* [[IronWoobie Titanium Woobie]]: Pham Newen. [[spoiler:His highest dream was to unite the Qeng Ho; he was betrayed, his followers scattered across space and time. He discovers Focus may make his dream possible - at far too high a price - and gives it up. Then he discovers, quite by accident, the Zones of Thought that would make his dream ''truly'' possible...and gets them ''backward,'' ultimately ending up a semi-automaton of a Power. He couldn't buy a break with all the archives in the High Beyond.]]

* AuthorTract: ''A Deepness in the Sky'' often veers in this direction, particularly whenever there are comparisons between the Emergent civilization and Qeng Ho.

* DownerEnding: If you read both ''A Fire Upon The Deep'' and ''A Deepness in the Sky'', [[spoiler:you realize that at the end of ''A Deepness in the Sky'', Pham Nuwen points his fleet towards the unthinking depths of the galaxy, where (most likely) everyone dies in a futile attempt to learn the wonders of the galaxy -- which happen to lie in the opposite direction. Pham Nuwen gets reassembled thirty thousand years later.]]
* HumansAreSpecial: Averted. Humans are not special at all. Well, except Pham Nuwen, who is so awesome [[spoiler: that a PhysicalGod who was as above normal sapients, as they are above fish, admitted to not being able to invent a personality like his.]]
** [[spoiler: it wasn't that Old One couldn't have invented Pham, Old One had to ''tone him down'' in order to use him.]]

** Flenser and Steel from ''A Fire Upon the Deep'', although this only applies to the past Flenser -- by the time Flenser appears in the story, he's partly a different person. Literally. [[StarfishAliens It's complicated.]]

* TrueNeutral: The Qeng Ho traders.