Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None
Changed line(s) 25 (click to see context) from:
** The first of the early warning signs that Mary Crawford is a BitchInSheepsClothing seem less blatant when looked at through modern eyes: She makes an open criticism of her uncle, a philanderer who quickly moved his long-time mistress into his home after the death of his long-suffering wife. Although this could be called oversharing today, Fanny and Edmund see it as a serious breach of propriety for her to speak disrespectfully of her guardian even though they agree that he sounds awful.
to:
** The first of the early warning signs that Mary Crawford is a BitchInSheepsClothing seem less blatant when looked at through modern eyes: She makes an open criticism of she openly criticises her uncle, a philanderer who quickly moved his long-time mistress into his home after the death of his long-suffering wife. Although this could be called oversharing today, Fanny and Edmund see it as a serious ''serious'' breach of propriety for her to speak disrespectfully of her guardian guardian, even though they agree that he sounds awful.
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None
Changed line(s) 27 (click to see context) from:
** After Maria elopes with Henry and Mr. Rushworth divorces her, she's regarded as ruined forever and effectively banished to the rural countryside for what will likely be the rest of her life. While society still doesn't look kindly on adultery today, such a fate is overkill to most modern readers, especially since Henry doesn't suffer any consequences other than knowing he's lost any chance with Fanny.
to:
** After Maria elopes with Henry and Mr. Rushworth divorces her, she's regarded as ruined forever and effectively banished to the rural countryside for what will likely be the rest of her life. While society still doesn't look kindly on adultery today, such a fate is extreme overkill to most modern readers, especially since Henry doesn't suffer any lasting consequences for the affair other than knowing he's lost any chance with Fanny.
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None
Added DiffLines:
*** Add to this the fact that Mrs. Price, her sister, is described as having a similar temperament but with none of the luxury to be idle, instead running a poorly-managed household, and one wonders if it isn't a hereditary issue.
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None
Changed line(s) 9 (click to see context) from:
** Quite a few Janeites wish the novel had ended with Fanny/Henry Crawford and Edmund/Mary Crawford instead of Fanny/Edmund, despite that Austen always strives to show that true love arises from similarity of character and that [[SurprisinglyRealisticOutcome bad boys will not change for a good girl]]. This probably isn't helped by the fact Fanny/Edmund doesn't get that much "screentime" compared to their interactions with the Crawfords. While Fanny is decidedly against Henry, ''Edmund'' spends most of the book falling in love with Mary, hoping that Mary can be convinced to wed a clergyman after all, convincing himself Mary will improve her morals, etc, etc, and not thinking about Fanny romantically at all.
to:
** Quite a few Janeites wish the novel had ended with Fanny/Henry Crawford and Edmund/Mary Crawford instead of Fanny/Edmund, despite that Austen always strives to show that true love arises from similarity of character and that [[SurprisinglyRealisticOutcome bad boys will not change for a good girl]]. This probably isn't helped by the fact Fanny/Edmund doesn't get that much "screentime" compared to their interactions with the Crawfords. While Fanny is decidedly against Henry, ''Edmund'' spends most of the book falling in love with Mary, hoping that Mary can be convinced to wed a clergyman after all, convincing himself Mary will improve her morals, etc, etc, and not thinking about Fanny romantically at all. In addition, Austen does note at the end of the book that if Henry had kept improving himself and not eloped with Maria, leading to the split between Edmund and Mary, Fanny ''would'' have come to accept him.
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None
Changed line(s) 24 (click to see context) from:
** The first of the early warning signs that Mary Crawford is a BitchInSheepsClothing seem less blatant when looked at through modern eyes: She makes an open criticism of her uncle, a philanderer who quickly moved his longtime mistress into his home after the death of his long-suffering wife. Although this could be called oversharing today, Fanny and Edmund see it as a serious breach of propriety for her to speak disrespectfully of her guardian even though they agree that he sounds awful.
to:
** The first of the early warning signs that Mary Crawford is a BitchInSheepsClothing seem less blatant when looked at through modern eyes: She makes an open criticism of her uncle, a philanderer who quickly moved his longtime long-time mistress into his home after the death of his long-suffering wife. Although this could be called oversharing today, Fanny and Edmund see it as a serious breach of propriety for her to speak disrespectfully of her guardian even though they agree that he sounds awful.
Changed line(s) 26 (click to see context) from:
** The happy ending is the heroine [[KissingCousins marrying her cousin]]. This isn't the only first-cousin couple depicted in Austen's work, but it is the only one where the main character is involved. Though there wasn't a taboo against such relationships at the time (it was more important that the two branches of the family were of the same social class), it's still hard for many modern readers not to feel weird about it.
to:
** After Maria elopes with Henry and Mr. Rushworth divorces her, she's regarded as ruined forever and effectively banished to the rural countryside for what will likely be the rest of her life. While society still doesn't look kindly on adultery today, such a fate is overkill to most modern readers, especially since Henry doesn't suffer any consequences other than knowing he's lost any chance with Fanny.
** The happy ending is the heroine [[KissingCousins marrying her cousin]]. This isn't the only first-cousin couple depicted in Austen's work, but it is the only one where the main character is involved. Though there wasn't a taboo against such relationships at the time (it was more important that the two branches of the family were of the same social class), it's still hard for many modern readers not to feel weird aboutit.it, especially since they grew up in close proximity in the same house.
** The happy ending is the heroine [[KissingCousins marrying her cousin]]. This isn't the only first-cousin couple depicted in Austen's work, but it is the only one where the main character is involved. Though there wasn't a taboo against such relationships at the time (it was more important that the two branches of the family were of the same social class), it's still hard for many modern readers not to feel weird about
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None
Changed line(s) 18 (click to see context) from:
** There are very suggestive scenes between Fanny (Frances O'Connor) and Mary (Embeth Davidtz) in the 1999 movie, at least for as long as Fanny isn't a serious contender for anyone's hand in marriage.
to:
** There are very suggestive scenes between Fanny (Frances O'Connor) (Creator/FrancesOConnor) and Mary (Embeth Davidtz) in the 1999 movie, at least for as long as Fanny isn't a serious contender for anyone's hand in marriage.
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None
Changed line(s) 9 (click to see context) from:
** Quite a few Janeites wish the novel had ended with Fanny/Henry Crawford and Edmund/Mary Crawford instead of Fanny/Edmund, despite that Austen always strives to show that true love arises from similarity of character and that [[SurprisinglyRealisticOutcome bad boys will not change for a good girl]].
to:
** Quite a few Janeites wish the novel had ended with Fanny/Henry Crawford and Edmund/Mary Crawford instead of Fanny/Edmund, despite that Austen always strives to show that true love arises from similarity of character and that [[SurprisinglyRealisticOutcome bad boys will not change for a good girl]]. This probably isn't helped by the fact Fanny/Edmund doesn't get that much "screentime" compared to their interactions with the Crawfords. While Fanny is decidedly against Henry, ''Edmund'' spends most of the book falling in love with Mary, hoping that Mary can be convinced to wed a clergyman after all, convincing himself Mary will improve her morals, etc, etc, and not thinking about Fanny romantically at all.
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None
Changed line(s) 17 (click to see context) from:
>'''Fanny:''' Very well -- very much. I like to hear her talk. She entertains me; and she is so extremely pretty, that [[EvenTheGirlsWantHer I have great pleasure in looking at her]].
to:
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None
Changed line(s) 5 (click to see context) from:
** The famous direct reference to slavery, in which Fanny brings up her attempt to introduce the topic at dinnertime as an example of her efforts to be more outgoing. It's so parsimonious that people--regular readers and scholarly ones with [=PhDs=]--have been trying to figure it out ever since: what did Fanny mean by asking about it? What are her (and Edmund's) feelings on the subject? Why would Sir Thomas approve of it being introduced? Fanny imputes her other cousins' silence to boredom, which is plausible, but the phrase "dead silence" is also a dramatic and telling one that implies discomfort. There's also much speculation about Austen's motives in including the scene, whether it was an unthinking reference to a common source of wealth back then, or if her portrayal of the Bertrams and their source of wealth is a social commentary that's less apparent to modern readers (Austen was known to admire several abolitionist writers).[[note]]Note that Sir Thomas' West Indies estates makes it plain that he is some kind of slaveholder, but this is the only place where slavery is mentioned by name rather than implication.[[/note]]
to:
** The famous direct reference to slavery, slavery. Sir Thomas' "West Indies estate" makes the Bertrams stand out in which Austen canon as the only main family who are definitely slaveowners, even if there are none on their home property. Then, Fanny brings up her attempt to introduce the topic at dinnertime as an example of her efforts to be more outgoing. It's so parsimonious that people--regular readers and scholarly ones with [=PhDs=]--have been trying to figure it out ever since: what did Fanny mean by asking about it? What are her (and Edmund's) feelings on the subject? Why would Sir Thomas approve of it being introduced? Fanny imputes her other cousins' silence to boredom, which is plausible, but the phrase "dead silence" is also a dramatic and telling one that implies discomfort. There's also much speculation about Austen's motives in including the scene, whether it was an unthinking reference a casual choice to a common source of found the Bertrams' wealth back then, upon, or if her portrayal of the Bertrams and their source of wealth is a was social commentary that's less apparent to modern readers (Austen was known to admire several abolitionist writers).[[note]]Note that Sir Thomas' West Indies estates makes it plain that he is some kind of slaveholder, but this is the only place where slavery is mentioned by name rather than implication.[[/note]]
Changed line(s) 24 (click to see context) from:
** The first of the early warning signs that Mary Crawford is a BitchInSheepsClothing seem less blatant when looked at through modern eyes: She makes an open criticism of her uncle (a philanderer who moved his mistress into the home after his wife's death). Such criticism of her guardian was considered a highly disrespectful action in that time.
to:
** The first of the early warning signs that Mary Crawford is a BitchInSheepsClothing seem less blatant when looked at through modern eyes: She makes an open criticism of her uncle (a uncle, a philanderer who quickly moved his longtime mistress into the his home after the death of his wife's death). Such criticism long-suffering wife. Although this could be called oversharing today, Fanny and Edmund see it as a serious breach of propriety for her to speak disrespectfully of her guardian was considered a highly disrespectful action in even though they agree that time.he sounds awful.
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None
Changed line(s) 10 (click to see context) from:
** There is also the viewpoint that Fanny's happiest ending would have her married to neither the caddish Henry or her stuffy cousin Edmund, but instead living in that cottage with William that he mentions while fantasizing about his career.
to:
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None
Deleted line(s) 14 (click to see context) :
** Edmund from the [[Film/MansfieldPark 1999 film]] (Creator/JonnyLeeMiller) and Edmund from the 2007 film (Creator/BlakeRitson) went on to appear together in ''Series/{{Emma}}'' (2009) as [[IdealHero Mr. Knightley]] and [[{{Jerkass}} Mr. Elton]] respectively.
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None
Added DiffLines:
** The famous direct reference to slavery, in which Fanny brings up her attempt to introduce the topic at dinnertime as an example of her efforts to be more outgoing. It's so parsimonious that people--regular readers and scholarly ones with [=PhDs=]--have been trying to figure it out ever since: what did Fanny mean by asking about it? What are her (and Edmund's) feelings on the subject? Why would Sir Thomas approve of it being introduced? Fanny imputes her other cousins' silence to boredom, which is plausible, but the phrase "dead silence" is also a dramatic and telling one that implies discomfort. There's also much speculation about Austen's motives in including the scene, whether it was an unthinking reference to a common source of wealth back then, or if her portrayal of the Bertrams and their source of wealth is a social commentary that's less apparent to modern readers (Austen was known to admire several abolitionist writers).[[note]]Note that Sir Thomas' West Indies estates makes it plain that he is some kind of slaveholder, but this is the only place where slavery is mentioned by name rather than implication.[[/note]]
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None
Changed line(s) 1 (click to see context) from:
* AlternativeCharacterInterpretation: Jane is both scathing and understanding of her own creation, the woefully inadequate Lady Bertram. However, modern readers might wonder at some underlying heart, neurological or autoimmune dysfunction that would have been undiagnosable at Austen's time of writing, particularly if she was based on a or several living templates. Add the highlighted terrible education, the low social expectations of "proper ladies with money", no worthwhile support systems ''and'' Mrs Norris sticking her oar in for her own selfish reasons... How much of that flighty, inconsistent demeanour ''is'' actually personal, wilfully chosen laziness as Jane suggests some of it is, rather than symptomatic of ignored physiological, psychosocial and cognitive issues combining into something horrible for all concerned? Is Lady Bertram just a violent disposition or an unlucky fortune away from MadwomanInTheAttic, rather than her primarily self-imposed isolation from other family members due to an inbuilt inability to cope she would always have little chance to control, even were she to have a better education or regard for others?
to:
* AlternativeCharacterInterpretation: AlternativeCharacterInterpretation:
** Jane is both scathing and understanding of her own creation, the woefully inadequate Lady Bertram. However, modern readers might wonder at some underlying heart, neurological or autoimmune dysfunction that would have been undiagnosable at Austen's time of writing, particularly if she was based on a or several living templates. Add the highlighted terrible education, the low social expectations of "proper ladies with money", no worthwhile support systems ''and'' Mrs Norris sticking her oar in for her own selfish reasons... How much of that flighty, inconsistent demeanour ''is'' actually personal, wilfully chosen laziness as Jane suggests some of it is, rather than symptomatic of ignored physiological, psychosocial and cognitive issues combining into something horrible for all concerned? Is Lady Bertram just a violent disposition or an unlucky fortune away from MadwomanInTheAttic, rather than her primarily self-imposed isolation from other family members due to an inbuilt inability to cope she would always have little chance to control, even were she to have a better education or regard for others?
** Jane is both scathing and understanding of her own creation, the woefully inadequate Lady Bertram. However, modern readers might wonder at some underlying heart, neurological or autoimmune dysfunction that would have been undiagnosable at Austen's time of writing, particularly if she was based on a or several living templates. Add the highlighted terrible education, the low social expectations of "proper ladies with money", no worthwhile support systems ''and'' Mrs Norris sticking her oar in for her own selfish reasons... How much of that flighty, inconsistent demeanour ''is'' actually personal, wilfully chosen laziness as Jane suggests some of it is, rather than symptomatic of ignored physiological, psychosocial and cognitive issues combining into something horrible for all concerned? Is Lady Bertram just a violent disposition or an unlucky fortune away from MadwomanInTheAttic, rather than her primarily self-imposed isolation from other family members due to an inbuilt inability to cope she would always have little chance to control, even were she to have a better education or regard for others?
Added DiffLines:
** Some scholars have suggested that Lieutenant Price sexually abuses his daughters due to the unspecified "crude jokes" he makes at Fanny's expense when she visits Portsmouth and all of the daughters of the Price household (Susan, Betsy, and their late sister) finding it very important to own and keep a knife for themselves.
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None
Changed line(s) 9 (click to see context) from:
* HilariousInHindsight: Mary Crawford blames Fanny for her brother eloping with Maria Rushworth, saying no harm would have been done if she had just married him, and his relationship with Maria "would have all ended in a regular standing flirtation, in yearly meetings at Sotherton and Everingham." A few decades later, it's like Anne Bronte read that alternate ending, wondered, "WhatIf", and wrote ''Literature/TheTenantOfWildfellHall'' to answer the question.
to:
* HilariousInHindsight: HilariousInHindsight:
** Mary Crawford blames Fanny for her brother eloping with Maria Rushworth, saying no harm would have been done if she had just married him, and his relationship with Maria "would have all ended in a regular standing flirtation, in yearly meetings at Sotherton and Everingham." A few decades later, it's like Anne Bronte read that alternate ending, wondered, "WhatIf", and wrote ''Literature/TheTenantOfWildfellHall'' to answer thequestion.question.
** Edmund from the [[Film/MansfieldPark 1999 film]] (Creator/JonnyLeeMiller) and Edmund from the 2007 film (Creator/BlakeRitson) went on to appear together in ''Series/{{Emma}}'' (2009) as [[IdealHero Mr. Knightley]] and [[{{Jerkass}} Mr. Elton]] respectively.
** Mary Crawford blames Fanny for her brother eloping with Maria Rushworth, saying no harm would have been done if she had just married him, and his relationship with Maria "would have all ended in a regular standing flirtation, in yearly meetings at Sotherton and Everingham." A few decades later, it's like Anne Bronte read that alternate ending, wondered, "WhatIf", and wrote ''Literature/TheTenantOfWildfellHall'' to answer the
** Edmund from the [[Film/MansfieldPark 1999 film]] (Creator/JonnyLeeMiller) and Edmund from the 2007 film (Creator/BlakeRitson) went on to appear together in ''Series/{{Emma}}'' (2009) as [[IdealHero Mr. Knightley]] and [[{{Jerkass}} Mr. Elton]] respectively.
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None
* BrokenBase: Some people feel that various adaptations of ''Mansfield Park'' itself, notably the 1999 movie and the 2007 film, are utter travesties of the book, based on statements by filmmakers in each case saying that they didn't find the character of Fanny very interesting. Other people feel that the adaptations are an improvement, on account of Fanny becoming less of an ExtremeDoormat.
Deleted line(s) 14 (click to see context) :
* {{Macekre}}: Some people feel that various adaptations of ''Mansfield Park'' itself, notably the 1999 movie and the 2007 film, are vile travesties of the book, based on statements by filmmakers in each case saying that they didn't find the character of Fanny very interesting. Other people feel that the adaptations are an improvement, on account of Fanny becoming less of an ExtremeDoormat.
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None
Changed line(s) 5 (click to see context) from:
** Quite a few Janeites wish the novel had ended with Fanny/Henry Crawford and Edmund/Mary Crawford instead of Fanny/Edmund, despite that Austen always strives to show that true love arises from similarity of character and that [[RealityEnsues bad boys will not change for a good girl]].
to:
** Quite a few Janeites wish the novel had ended with Fanny/Henry Crawford and Edmund/Mary Crawford instead of Fanny/Edmund, despite that Austen always strives to show that true love arises from similarity of character and that [[RealityEnsues [[SurprisinglyRealisticOutcome bad boys will not change for a good girl]].
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None
Changed line(s) 7 (click to see context) from:
* HardToAdaptWork: This one tends to get skipped over whenever there's a new rush of Austen adaptations. Two of the three existing adaptations rework Fanny's personality because she's even more deeply internal a character than Elinor Dashwood or Anne Elliot (who also get ignored by their family but have a greater sense of self-worth and direction). The darker themes and the values dissonance surrounding cousin romance and the allusion to slavery also make for an AudienceAlienatingPresence for some, given the general tone of Austen's other works.
to:
* HardToAdaptWork: This one tends to get skipped over whenever there's a new rush of Austen adaptations. Two of the three existing adaptations rework Fanny's personality because she's even more deeply internal a character than Elinor Dashwood or Anne Elliot (who also get ignored by their family but have a greater sense of self-worth and direction). The darker themes and the values dissonance surrounding cousin romance and the allusion to slavery also make for an AudienceAlienatingPresence AudienceAlienatingPremise for some, given the general tone of Austen's other works.
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None
Changed line(s) 4 (click to see context) from:
* [[FanPreferredCouple Fan Preferred Couples]]: Quite a few Janeites wish the novel had ended with Fanny/Henry Crawford and Edmund/Mary Crawford instead of Fanny/Edmund, despite that Austen always strives to show that true love arises from similarity of character and that [[RealityEnsues bad boys will not change for a good girl]].
to:
* [[FanPreferredCouple Fan Preferred Couples]]: Couples]]:
** Quite a few Janeites wish the novel had ended with Fanny/Henry Crawford and Edmund/Mary Crawford instead of Fanny/Edmund, despite that Austen always strives to show that true love arises from similarity of character and that [[RealityEnsues bad boys will not change for a goodgirl]].girl]].
** There is also the viewpoint that Fanny's happiest ending would have her married to neither the caddish Henry or her stuffy cousin Edmund, but instead living in that cottage with William that he mentions while fantasizing about his career.
* HardToAdaptWork: This one tends to get skipped over whenever there's a new rush of Austen adaptations. Two of the three existing adaptations rework Fanny's personality because she's even more deeply internal a character than Elinor Dashwood or Anne Elliot (who also get ignored by their family but have a greater sense of self-worth and direction). The darker themes and the values dissonance surrounding cousin romance and the allusion to slavery also make for an AudienceAlienatingPresence for some, given the general tone of Austen's other works.
** Quite a few Janeites wish the novel had ended with Fanny/Henry Crawford and Edmund/Mary Crawford instead of Fanny/Edmund, despite that Austen always strives to show that true love arises from similarity of character and that [[RealityEnsues bad boys will not change for a good
** There is also the viewpoint that Fanny's happiest ending would have her married to neither the caddish Henry or her stuffy cousin Edmund, but instead living in that cottage with William that he mentions while fantasizing about his career.
* HardToAdaptWork: This one tends to get skipped over whenever there's a new rush of Austen adaptations. Two of the three existing adaptations rework Fanny's personality because she's even more deeply internal a character than Elinor Dashwood or Anne Elliot (who also get ignored by their family but have a greater sense of self-worth and direction). The darker themes and the values dissonance surrounding cousin romance and the allusion to slavery also make for an AudienceAlienatingPresence for some, given the general tone of Austen's other works.
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None
Changed line(s) 2 (click to see context) from:
** Edmund Bertram is largely portrayed fairly positively...but it cannot be ignored that the kindness he shows Fanny, for which she falls in love with him, is mostly just basic human decency, made to appear exceptional by the fact that it's still better treatment than Fanny receives from anyone else at Mansfield. And even then, his treatment of her is InnocentlyInsensitive ''at best''. Edmund's AllAboutMe tendencies are better-hidden than his siblings' but this is still the man who responds to what he believes is Fanny's heartbreak over a man who was courting her seducing her cousin by begging her to think of ''his'' heartbreak over Mary's support of her brother.
to:
** Edmund Bertram is largely portrayed fairly positively...but it cannot be ignored that the kindness he shows Fanny, for which she falls in love with him, is mostly just basic human decency, made to appear exceptional by the fact that it's still better treatment than Fanny receives from anyone else at Mansfield. And even then, his treatment of her is InnocentlyInsensitive ''at best''. Edmund's AllAboutMe ItsAllAboutMe tendencies are better-hidden than his siblings' but this is still the man who responds to what he believes is Fanny's heartbreak over a man who was courting her seducing her cousin by begging her to think of ''his'' heartbreak over Mary's support of her brother.
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None
Changed line(s) 2 (click to see context) from:
** Edmund Bertram is largely portrayed fairly positively...but it cannot be ignored that the kindness he shows Fanny, for which she falls in love with him, is mostly just basic human decency, made to appear exceptional by the fact that it's still better treatment than Fanny receives from anyone else at Mansfield. And even then, his treatment of her is InnocentlyInsensitive ''at best''. Edmund's It'sAllAboutMe tendencies are better-hidden than his siblings' but this is still the man who responds to what he believes is Fanny's heartbreak over a man who was courting her seducing her cousin by begging her to think of ''his'' heartbreak over Mary's support of her brother.
to:
** Edmund Bertram is largely portrayed fairly positively...but it cannot be ignored that the kindness he shows Fanny, for which she falls in love with him, is mostly just basic human decency, made to appear exceptional by the fact that it's still better treatment than Fanny receives from anyone else at Mansfield. And even then, his treatment of her is InnocentlyInsensitive ''at best''. Edmund's It'sAllAboutMe AllAboutMe tendencies are better-hidden than his siblings' but this is still the man who responds to what he believes is Fanny's heartbreak over a man who was courting her seducing her cousin by begging her to think of ''his'' heartbreak over Mary's support of her brother.