History Headscratchers / ThePunisher2017

*** BDSM can happen fully clothed; that was what Bennett was getting when Frank broke into his quarters to attack him. As for the rest, we don't see what Russo did after the killing was finished, but it's fair to assume that he doctored the scene as needed before leaving, especially since he'd already killed the prostitute before he brought Bennett to the room. Leave a bloody knife, move the bodies a bit, toss some stuff on the floor, and between that and the known relationship between the two, the conclusions are obvious. Since we never see anything about a followup investigation mentioned later on aside from David mentioning it being reported in the newspapers, it's fair to assume that whatever the State Police found was sufficient for them to consider it an open and shut case and move on.

* So how much of Rawlins' efforts to get rid of Frank ware about getting rid of a witness to Operation Cerberus, and how much of it was him simply exerting petty revenge over Frank taking his eye from him?

* So how much of Rawlins' efforts to get rid of Frank was about getting rid of a witness to Operation Cerberus, and how much of it was him simply exerting petty revenge over Frank taking his eye from him?

** It was probably exactly that. Curtis was intent on creating a safe space where everyone could talk about whatever they needed to, and probably felt O'Connor just needed a forum to vent his frustrations. Once he saw that O'Connor was becoming a PoisonousFriend to Lewis, a kid Curtis has become very invested in because he's the most obviously-damaged person at the group, Curtis did some digging and learned the O'Connor really had no place being in that group at all, and was using it and its members for his own ends. Unfortunately, it was too late for Lewis.

*** As I said, by real-world standards, Karen ''should'' have severe PTSD from all of the above incidents. She certainly had it after killing Wesley (because there's no other explanation for why she'd be having nightmares of Fisk coming to kill her right after the shooting). The way she acts, though, is probably chalked up to the fact that in the world of fiction, characters are supernaturally resilient to trauma so that they can continue to be active participants in the plot, that is, unless the PTSD is crucial to the plot or a character's personality (like with Frank or with Jessica Jones). It's just like Matt recovers from nasty knife wounds and concussions rather quickly, or Frank's ability to keep fighting despite all his injuries here, and we all accept it. As for the gun control debate, well, [[Administrivia/RuleOfCautiousEditingJudgment that's a whole can of worms to be saved for another thread.]]

*** Matt's superhuman hearing was good enough that when he was rescuing Frank from the Irish, even with heavy gunfire going on, he heard Frank whispering "penny and dime". Directing his hearing toward the sniper fire after everything is said and done seems to be within his ability.

*** I’m not sure what the headscratcher here is. Matt has superhuman senses that are not physically possible which means they are limited to the writer’s imagination. If he can sense Frank during a fight, then that’s what he does. After all, he sensed a gunman from the next building over right before Reyes' office was shot up. In the climax, the fighting stopped for a few moments after Elektra died. When Matt stood up to continue the fight, that’s when Frank made his first move. Matt turned in the direction of the shot and either detected him via radar or picked up on through other means described above. Additionally, from Matt's perspective, if someone were sniping bad guys on a roof, it would have to be Frank. Well, that or an ESU sniper. But if it were an ESU sniper in the vein of the one who shot Detective Blake, well, Matt would have heard the radio chatter of him communicating with his supervisor.

** Frank's death was faked BEFORE Elektra died and Frank took out the ninjas. It just seems odd that the Hand would let that slide.

** It wasn't a huge leap. The four guys weren't just connected. Because despite Russo's line about them likely working for all sort of groups, their history almost exclusively points at Anvil. Russo's guarded difficulty, the odd behavior of the fifth man (he shot one of his own, and you could say that even in the midst of a heated firefight, she'd notice the one pushed out), lined up coincidences about information she gave Russo and the activities against her (remember how she figured out her office was bugged from simply looking at the timing between when she learned about Gunner and when Gunner was killed). She also noted Sam's expression of surprise, as if he'd recognized the man who killed him.

** Given how he said that in a previous episode and didn't react to it it's possible she told him about it off-screen, it's just adding up how detached he is about the whole thing that might tipped her off

** Reyes fasttracked the trial to prevent Nelson & Murdock from mounting a decent defense. Obviously, in real life, a case of Frank's magnitude would take at least a year to get to trial. Long enough for Matt, Karen and Foggy to assemble and vet a proper team of witnesses. With this in mind, both Curtis and Russo were probably out of town. Russo was probably doing working overseas with Anvil, and Curtis was probably at an insurance convention or doing something else.

** He also likely DID check O'Connor's records at first...but just to verify he served at ALL. It wasn't until O'Connor went too far, that he did a deeper check. The questions "Is this person a vet?", and "Is this person telling the whole story?" are not always hand-in-hand. Until Lewis, he was nothing more then an annoyance...and, quite frankly, O'Connor might have HELPED by providing a Devil's Advocate, or someone for the group to focus a bit of constructive anger/annoyance on. If they start sounding like O'Connor? They know to back off. It's not until Lewis, that the group had someone INCREDIBLY messed up.

** He has CIA on his side so if someone asks no he is Petey Castegliani, it was all a misunderstanding and Punisher is dead.

** Yes, it's a little odd that Frank didn't ask about Matt after everything they went through in season 2 of ''Daredevil'', especially with Karen being around. But then you have to remember, Karen's interactions with Frank in ''Daredevil'' were all told from Karen's perspective. If you look at the interactions from Frank's perspective, Frank never really had any time to just chat with Karen. He only ever reached out to her when he needed to hit her up for information (like Micro) or when he was protecting her from some imminent threat (the Blacksmith and Lewis). Then there's that scene in the courtroom at Frank's trial where it's heavily suggested that Frank picked up on who Matt really is, but it was never brought up. This means that Frank might not know that Karen knows Matt is Daredevil. If that's the case, it would seem pretty odd for Frank to ask about Matt considering how Matt wasn't actually working on Frank's case as much as the others, instead being interested in helping Elektra fight ninjas. If anything, it would've made more sense for Frank to ask about Foggy.

[[folder:Where does the Gnucci fit in]]

** Since all we saw of the Gnuccis consisted of one group being robbed by low level thugs before being killed, it seems they aren’t that powerful as of yet. The New York underworld was in a state of disarray this point: Fisk was locked up, slowly building up his FBI extortion racket and waiting for his leverage on Ray Nadeem to run its course, the Hand has been destroyed, Harlem's gangs that had been decimated by Diamondback are still regrouping, and the three gangs involved in the murder of Frank’s family have been wiped out. There is always room for new organizations to rise up.

** He is likely wearing an improved outer tactical vest given he got it from Schoonover's military grade stash. Those are made to take direct impact of a bullet from rifles and have ceramic plates that can stop armor piercing bullets. For a base comparison, it's like the body armor the Ukrainian was wearing in ''Series/LukeCage2016'' to test the Judas bullets in the footage that Shades shows to Cottonmouth. Notice how aside from the initial shock, the guy was laughing until it exploded. Also Matt's armor was never made for guns, Melvin built it to resist blades and pipes.

On top of that, Lewis was actually a lot more volatile than anyone O’Connor, Curtis, or his own father wanted to admit. For Curtis and his dad, it's understandable why they'd miss the signs. Once they recognize how far he’s spiraling and they try to control Lewis and force him to get more help, it's too late as the damage is already irreparable. He feels hurt and betrayed. Moreover, they had blinders up about how dangerous Lewis could be not just to himself but to others and really even didn't think that he could be dangerous to others at all. We, as the audience, see how close Lewis was to suicide, when he tried eating the barrel of his gun. I think that possibility is all that Curtis and his dad saw before it was too late. His dad, thinking that the only way he’d hurt others would be by accident (the way he almost died waking up Lewis from a nightmare) and Curtis, thinking that Lewis just now might kill himself in that foxhole when he dug it. That Lewis could pick up O’Connor’s political position to a terroristic extreme and kill others? Curtis didn't remotely recognize that until Lewis went and did it. [[TheWoobie And his poor dad… almost certainly found out from the news. What a terrible way.]]

** Except Frank was found there by Micro and had he not erased the surveillance camera they would have found Frank a while ago and Frank at least killed the last guy with his own gun. Russo didn't do anything to look like both both killed each other. So if you compare the Gnucci shoot-out with the dominatrix killing they need also someone mentionning the video feed from nearby recorded no one entering or leaving the house.
** That's playing with a lot of supposition too, first that the bdsm happened with the guy fully clothed and his suitcase ready to leave, no one fighting back and Russo leaving the knife which we didn't see happen.
*** BDSM can happen fully clothed; that was what Bennett was getting right before Frank came knocking. As for the rest, we don't see what Billy did after the killing was finished, but it's fair to assume that he doctored the scene as needed before leaving, especially since he was willing to go so far as to kill the prostitute and leave her body on the scene. Leave a bloody knife, move the bodies a bit, toss some stuff on the floor, and between that and the known relationship between the two, the conclusions are obvious. Since we never see anything about a followup investigation mentioned later on aside from David mentioning it being reported in the newspapers, it's fair to assume that whatever the State Police found was sufficient for them to consider it an open and shut case and move on.

** This is TruthInTelevision. It's really hard to recall faces, especially faces that were only shown several months back on some high-profile murder case that may have bounced across the news (and ultimately is small potatoes compared with, you know, deathbots trying to piledrive a city into the planet, an alien invasion, a major government organization collapsing, a building falling into the heart of the city, multiple vigilantes running around town, and all the planet's superheroes tearing up an airport), while you're personally dealing with all the issues surrounding your husband's recent death. If Sarah thought he looked familiar, she would have passed it off as coincidence, like every other person probably would, because "Pete" is acting nothing even remotely like what the media was presenting Frank Castle as.

** There are a LOT of guys in New York City that look vaguely like Frank Castle. Nobody there wants to make eye contact with anyone. It’s been months since the trial, he’s supposed to be dead, and 99.99% of people in New York City don't care. Plus Frank deliberately kept a hood up and had minimal interactions with the public at large. You also need to consider that not everyone gets injected with a daily dose of news that they magically shelve in their brains, and even if they did, most of them wouldn't be able to recall yesterday's news if they had two hands and a flashlight.

Thus, when we meet Karen in ''The Punisher'', she's still not over the pain of losing Matt, as Deborah Ann Woll has said in interviews. She's got a little shrine to Matt in her living room. She's clearly taken up day drinking. She's impatient and easily exasperated by Ellison, who she should be able to open up to, but can't because that would mean having to tell him the truth about Matt's identity. Hell, Karen doesn't even want to talk to Frank about what has been going on with her. She isn't speaking to Foggy. And it even extends to her recklessness regarding Lewis Wilson. In that moment, Karen isn’t being rational, but she doesn't care what happens to her or anyone around her at this point, because she wants to feel something other than the loss she is suffering. She's intentionally putting herself in danger as an adrenaline rush, to ignore the pain she doesn’t want to deal with. Her heart still vies for Matt. She needs him as much as he needs her.

** A whole forest is hard to clean up. Getting the [=PMCs=]' bodies is as easy as breathing, since they had helmet-mounted cameras and likely trackers on them to find. Since Micro called the cops, they probably only had time to grab the bodies and run otherwise they would have followed Micro's track if they had enough tie to find Gunner's body. All they could take was their own men and their weapons. Everything else, like spent shell casings, had to be left behind.

* I'm pretty sure if a US Senator receives a public death threat on air, then the Secret Service would immediately take over all security for said asset? On top of that, why hire Anvil? They turn out to be completely incapable of even basic security measures, like having two guards outside the door, or letting their CEO be on site. An actual private security firm would at least have been less controversial to the Senator's gun control voter base AND perhaps have been better prepared. Or a combination of Private Security and Secret Service?

** Anvil ''is'' a private security firm. That and the mistakes that they made actually mirror the kind of mistakes that other security firms like Blackwater have made in the past when guarding [=VIPs=]. This had been similarly acknowledged when Russo was hiring operatives for the ambush on Dinah's SWAT team, as he told them "There's not much of anything I can do about a Website/YouTube video of you guys opening up on a bunch of Iraqi civilians."

** Immediately afterwards Frank makes a detour back to New York to take out the Hand ninjas, then begins systematically hunting down the Blacksmith's cartel, probably using information he got from the shed (it seemed to be Schoonover's command center as well). Russo and Rawlins probably assumed it was a gang war erupting between what remained of the Kitchen Irish, the Hand, and the Blacksmith cartel, and it was easier to let it play out then to get directly involved. Anvil had already been established, so Russo had a reliable source of income that let him live like AManOfWealthAndTaste which is what he was after all along, and Rawlins had been promoted to the point that he didn't directly need extra funding to oversee his pet projects. Thus the Blacksmith Cartel was simply an afterthought at this point, and it was easier to let it fall apart once they realized Schoonover was dead as he was the only one who could implicate them.

** Remember that ANVIL is mostly made of dishonorably discharged soldiers so Russo can do wet work. Even if Lewis was competent it would have ended poorly for him.
** Curtis was so against it because it was a band aid solution. Rather than try to deal with what he was going through, Lewis wanted to just escape reality and go back to a war zone. So it's very likely Curtis was right to believe Lewis was too unstable to be able to “watch someone’s back”. It's also possible that Curtis was still convinced that he could help Lewis manage his PTSD, and the auspices of a sketchy PMC are not the most conducive.

** Curtis could say whatever he wanted, but he's a battered and injured man in a house with a corpse and had a bomb wired to him. The police are very likely going to treat anything he says to them as having dubious crediblity due to sheer trauma, and will be hunting for Frank regardless because he is a known criminal vigilante. Even if Curtis gives a shining testimony to how Frank saved him, Frank is still a known mass-murderer, and the police will be after him if only to bring him in and straighten out the story.

** It's not like Lance was a gangster. He was just a moron desperate to pay back his debt. After the heist, he and Donny don't even have to talk to each other or have a fall-out. The only reason he wanted him dead is the threat of the Gnuccis tracking him down and making him give up Lance and the others, which we saw them preparing to do when Frank caught up to them.

** The only thing we know for certain, when correlating this with the other shows, is that ''The Punisher'' takes place after ''The Defenders'' and before ''Daredevil'' season 3, during the time period where Matt is presumed to be dead following the destruction of Midland Circle. This can be deduced from Karen’s general state of mourning and wardrobe choices[[note]]Primarily blacks and blues, the colors of sadness and mourning[[/note]], as well as the fact that if Matt were still alive and kicking, there’s no way he would have sat on the sidelines once Lewis publicly threatened Karen on the radio.[[note]]Remember that he was tipped into freakout mode when the Hand kidnapped Karen, his immediate reaction to Sowande threatening the heroes' loved ones was to immediately run to Karen's office, or the fact he immediately dropped what he was doing and headed to the church when he learned Fisk ordered a hit on her[[/note]] How long after ''The Defenders'' that the events of ''The Punisher'' take place, though, is harder to tell. At best, it's probably a few weeks, since the Empire State Building is lit up in red during the first episode when Frank is working on the construction site (much like it was in Danny's last shot in ''The Defenders''), while in episode 2, Ellison can be seen holding a newspaper that's headlined "Chaos Under the Streets." And in ''Daredevil'' season 3, it's not really established how long it's been since ''The Defenders'', although it's very likely Ellison's attitude with Karen for investigating Fisk against his explicit instructions not to is the result of ongoing tensions from what happened with Lewis.

*** Another thing to consider is that Karen has spent enough time with Matt and with Frank to know they are totally different animals. Frank is a killer and has been for a while. Karen met him this way. Matt has never been a killer, not when he met her and not now. Even teetering on the edge has shown Matt goes dark and pushes everyone away. It will eat at his soul if he crosses that line and make him question if not completely lose his faith, the thing that helps him stay grounded, and that’s obvious to Karen (and everyone). To put it another way, Karen's line of thinking is "treat people according to what you believe is best for them rather than just apply blanket morality to every situation". It’s also pointless to argue with a guy like Frank, while Matt can still be reasoned with.

** From the Kandahar flashbacks, it looks like they were led to think it was Frank because Frank expressed the most vocal opposition to Agent Orange. Given the way he protested against the operation that he knew was a death trap, the way he flipped out and punched out Rawlins' eye after said mission inevitably went south, and both Agent Orange and Schoonover would have every reason to think that Frank was the most likely of the team to snitch. Gunner, on the other hand, he didn't confront anyone with what he saw when he saw Schoonover and Colonel Bennett stuffing the [=KIA=]s with drugs. It's possible he didn't say anything because he wanted to tip off Madani once he had something airtight that was irrefutable proof of Operation Cerberus's illegal existence, without raising any suspicions from the plotters. He got something when it came to the Zubair assassination. Given Rawlins' callousness and general lack of regard for the men under his command (up to and including Russo), he obviously didn't care enough to know which soldiers were which. Frank, on the other hand, was aware that the tape couldn't have been made by him because he was the one shooting Zubair, and he'd connected with Gunner early on, so he knew right away where Gunner was standing, and where Gunner was standing lined up with the angle of the footage.
** It's never said out loud, but the show seems to strongly imply that Rawlins assumed Frank leaked the video because of their personal conflict. If Rawlins' judgment was clouded by his bitterness toward Frank, it might also explain why he didn't realize someone other than Frank had filmed it since Frank is in the video. Or there had been so many tortures and killings that [[ButForMeItWasTuesday he couldn't recall the details of that one]], and didn't look at it closely enough to see who was on screen. No one in the government who saw the video recognized his voice either, despite his prominent position in the CIA, so evidently the masks and yelling were effective disguises.

Why did Pilgrim kill Marlena outside the jail?
* Throughout all of his pursuit of Amy, Pilgrim made perfectly clear that he did it because he believed it was ''necessary'', not because he wanted to do it, or because he enjoyed it. Marlena on the other hand had just said that she very much wanted to kill "Castiglione" out of personal revenge. This probably made her a sinner worthy of death in his eyes.
** Also possibly because she had called attention to herself and become a loose end? The rest of her crew was dead, but people were becoming curious about her and might find out more if they exerted themselves, becoming a risk for Marlena and his community. She'd acted without asking for permission, as she said, and these were the consequences...
* The police at the station had run her through the system and confirmed her identity. Even if they eliminated the officers, it would still be logged in the system that she was one of their last three checks right before they went silent. She was a loose end that could potentially lead back to who she was working for. If they discover her body then there's no point in the Feds looking for Marlena.

** [[TruthInTelevision You're seriously underestimating]] just how [[SociopathicSoldier depraved]] [[WarForFunAndProfit Private Military Contractors]] can get.

** Senators do not typically get Secret Service. The exceptions are when they’re running for President, when they happen to have an immediate family who served as president/vice president, when they’re traveling overseas, or if they’re leadership (the Senate Leaders, etc). You could make a case that since there was indeed a threat against the Senator and Karen, hiring private security would not be out of the question or Secret Service would indeed get involved. You might even have the NYPD or the New York State Police on hand. If anything, what's unrealistic about the whole thing is that the private security they did hire were wearing uniforms. For the kind of money that's changing hands for a premium outfit like Anvil, and to have them in an environment where they are guarding and essentially staffing a high profile Senator who is sensitive about the appearance of hired security, those guys should be plain clothes/wearing cheap suits.

** Immediately afterwards Frank makes a detour back to New York to take out the Hand ninjas, then begins systematically hunting down the Blacksmith's cartel, probably using information he got from the shed (it seemed to be Schoonover's command center as well). Billy and Rawlins probably assumed it was a gang war erupting between what remained of the Kitchen Irish, the Hand, and the Blacksmith cartel, and it was easier to let it play out then to get directly involved. Anvil had already been established, so Billy had a reliable source of income that let him live like AManOfWealthAndTaste which is what he was after all along, and Rawlins had been promoted to the point that he didn't directly need extra funding to oversee his pet projects. Thus the Blacksmith Cartel was simply an afterthought at this point, and it was easier to let it fall apart once they realized Schoonover was dead as he was the only one who could implicate them.

** Did Karen ever disclose to anyone afterward that she went to Colonel Schoonover's place? It's possible that she did tell Matt about it after the fact (Matt would have noticed the cut on her face thanks to his senses), but we only see part of the whole "I'm Daredevil" reveal conversation in ''Daredevil'' season 3. We know on-camera that Karen told Ellison that she had an idea of someone she could talk to about Frank as a good person, to write about his personal/human-interest story first and the descent into The Punisher second, but she didn’t explicitly tell Ellison that it was Colonel Schoonover. Her car got wrecked, but it wasn't in his driveway. It's possible she didn't call the cops, since Frank was in the woods, but she would’ve had to call AAA or another towing company to get her car towed, which is a record that Dinah wouldn’t have. And no one else was at home with Schoonover when Karen arrived, so no one else (aside from, again, Matt) knows she was actually there. There's a lot that happened offscreen that we didn't see. It's possible that Karen lied, and said she got into a wreck on her way to Schoonover's house, or got in a hit-and-run. Or maybe her car was able to start and she left in it and lied about her injuries occurring elsewhere when she went to the hospital (since she had to have at least partially dislocated her shoulder and all that) So maybe no one knows Karen had any presence anywhere near Schoonover’s death either. And she simply told Ellison that the lead didn’t want to talk to her or some other excuse without ever having to divulge that the person was the now-deceased Schoonover.

** While prolonged exposure therapy is a valid treatment for PTSD, even that therapy relies on safe exposure to the triggers and is about reducing the distress caused by the trauma reminders. Joining Anvil would only work for Lewis in combination with some really extensive in-house therapy, in which someone like Curtis would be with him every step of the way. And that option isn't viable because we're talking about Lewis being in potential life-or-death situations and his emotional state is too unpredictable/volatile for that by far. He would perhaps put other people's lives at risk with his responses, and that is just the ''best case'' scenario in Curtis's opinion.

** Curtis could say whatever he wanted, but he's a battered and injured man in a house with a corpse and had a bomb wired to him. The police are very likely going to consider any testimony he gives suspect due to sheer trauma, and will be hunting for Frank regardless because he is a known criminal vigilante. Even if Curtis gives a shining testimony to how Frank saved him, Frank is still a known mass-murderer, and the police will be after him if only to bring him in and straighten out the story.

** They weren't fake police uniforms, her husband was shot and "killed" by Carson Wolf, the Special Agent in Charge for the DHS field office for New York City. Sarah was suspicious because the fake cop was acting a little off, asking questions about who's home and so forth (so he can determine if all the Liebermans are in one place). And with everything going on, she'd be stupid not to be a little suspicious.

** Wolf was also accompanied by DHS SWAT officers, and regardless, David was shot by ''law enforcement''. It doesn't matter which alphabet agency it was that shot him, it's going to make her inherently distrustful of law enforcement in general when one shot her husband.

*** Cops are indeed allowed to "harass" (read, detain) people if they feel they're disturbing the peace. Your example of forcing a blowjob doesn't compare here, because that's committing an outright unjustified crime, but ejecting a person who is causing trouble is acceptable. Now, what the cop did there was outside of the line, as Lewis wasn't disturbing the peace and the cop was making up serious charges on the spot, but legally, yeah, a cop could cite disturbing the peace as a reason to eject an individual from a public place.
*** It's also important to note that, in this case, Lewis and O'Connor were purposely using a "letter of the law over the spirit of the law". Really, the problem wasn't what they were doing, but ''where'' they were doing it. Handing out pamphlets is not ''technically'' a protest...but, for all intents and purposes, they are making a political ''statement'', on the steps of a courthouse. That's the sort of place where, in order to make a political statement and handle such things, you are ''required'' to have a permit, and how Lewis and O'Connor were doing it was in an obtrusive and obvious manner. The cop was a prick and probably was having a bad day or needed to be sent back to the academy, and getting arrested was one of the crucial factors towards Lewis's downward spiral. But, generally? What Lewis was doing was one step below the "sovereign citizen" stuff you see activists try to pull all the time at traffic stops. Cops have broad discretion to at least ''detain'' someone, and in some instances "being an asshole" can be reasonable enough suspicion. This is one of those situations where ''both'' parties were in the wrong. The cop was, quite frankly, a RabidCop...but, arguing "You can't arrest me" to a cop...in many instances can, in fact, be grounds for arrest. Quite frankly? Lewis should have sucked it up and grabbed the permit. And "disturbing the peace" is also explicitly something that cops have broad discretionary power. And Lewis and O'Connor were being loud and obvious...which again, is exactly why permits are required for such things. Yes, it was just two people, but those two people were intentionally making sure everyone could hear them. [[http://criminal.findlaw.com/criminal-charges/disturbing-the-peace.html You may have "freedom of speech" and "freedom of assembly" in the United States, but those two things do not come without restrictions.]]
*** Man that was a lot of text to say that you don't believe people have freedoms if the cops don't like those freedoms. Luckily you are wrong, the cop was wrong, and Lewis should have focused his vengeance on that cop where it would have been utterly justified.
*** Lewis wouldn't be justified in going after the cop. The cop was just doing his job.

[[/folder]]

[[folder: Does Anvil pay that well?]]
* Apparently ''every single employee'' of Anvil, including the desk-bound computer geeks, gets such a fat paycheck that they are perfectly okay with committing murder, arson, kidnapping, assault, torture, trying to set a woman and her child on fire, impersonating a police officer, killing cops and federal law enforcement agents like it ain't no thing... Seriously, one wonders if even Bill Gates could buy that kind of loyalty.

** Legal matters aside vis-a-vis Officer involved shooting and "Execution" vs. "Good shoot"... the whole point of that operation was to find out who was after Frank, and to question them about Kandahar... the other four died in a firefight, couldn't be avoided. Shooting the last man, when you don't 'have to' defeats the purpose of the whole operation... had Russo gone down alongside of the others, it would have been a 'good shoot' and they'd have had to make due following the paper trail his involvement would have generated, but that was not plan A.

** Karen seems very isolated in ''The Punisher''. This is further supported by the way she speaks about loneliness and how she pushes to remain in touch with Frank somehow. She seems to not even be in touch with Foggy at this point (though we're to assume Foggy probably called her to see if she was okay after the Lewis incident), so Matt's "death" certainly seems to have had far-reaching consequences that have a big impact on her later behavior in ''Daredevil'' season 3. Karen probably compartmentalizes her grief, but around Frank, she seems to drop the act. She's also emotional/tearful in the "Where does it end, Frank?" conversation in a way that very much speaks of raw emotions lurking under the surface.

* Why weren't Curtis or Billy character witnesses at Frank's trial? The only witness we had to Frank being a good person was Colonel Schoonover, and while he did provide a good witness for the defense, a couple more would have been better.
** Reyes fastracked the trial to prevent Nelson & Murdock from mounting a decent defense. In real life, a trial of Frank's magnitude would happen months after the arrest, if not ''years''. Long enough for Matt, Karen and Foggy to assemble and vet a proper team of witnesses. With this in mind, both Curtis and Russo were probably out of town. Russo was probably doing working overseas with Anvil, and Curtis was probably at an insurance convention or doing something else.

*** She was supportive of Daredevil. Thinking Matt as cheating doesn’t really factor in to her support of vigilante justice.

** Frank is basically drawing the line between terrorist and vigilante as he sees it. He actively targets those society at large generally would consider criminals, but who have mostly escaped the consequences of their actions through corrupt means. In short, when he uses fear and/or indirect methods, it's targeted at those who have convinced themselves they no longer have to worry about fallout, and who he is trying to trace or work towards: and, they very quickly ''know'' who is gunning for them and, more specifically, ''why'' from almost the start, since he tells them (even when he should still pretend to be dead, he talks directly to the body cameras on the mercenaries who targeted him in the forest). Even if their unhappy goons may not have a clue who is handing out the knuckle sandwich with complimentary sides of bullets and death: however, most goons he takes out know that doing shady shit has risks, even if they hoped never to meet them. When Frank gets a bystander killed, it's usually an accident or honest mistake (which, granted, doesn't undo the carnage). Lewis, however, doesn't make this distinction from the get-go: ''anybody'' associated with those "against" him is a valid target in his eyes. He hits as many people as possible with indiscriminate means to sow fear in those who have not done anything actively illegal by any measure but his own and/or who simply have a job or opinion he doesn't agree with. And, he hits people who have no reason to see him coming without warning. Remember that his anonymous manifesto to Karen happened after the fact. It's a fine distinction and YMMV on how much is due to delusion, but it's Frank's.
** Frank isn't being literal here. He's being metaphorical. His targets are generally people who already know who is targeting them and why. Lewis is more indiscriminate about who gets hurt.

** In Frank's interactions with Karen, Matt is basically the elephant in the room. Frank is tiptoeing around the issue of Matt's death. For example, when he meets Karen, he doesn't say something like "How have you been?" or "How's Murdock doing? He still running in those red pajamas of his?" because he knows damn well that her boyfriend just died, and saying something like that doesn't show much tact. He also avoids subjects like her new job, because asking about it would lead to asking Karen why she left Nelson & Murdock (which inevitably would mean having to talk about Matt), or him asking Karen why she is being so nice to him after he was supposedly dead to her.
** From a storytelling perspective, it kinda makes sense why Matt's "death" isn't discussed: ''The Punisher'' was designed to be a stand-alone story, and designed to not rely on viewers having watched the other shows. A show's writing needs to stand up on its own merit rather than its association with other big names. This isn't a ''Defenders'' story or ''Daredevil'' story, it's a ''Punisher'' story. Now, ''The Punisher'' wasn't entirely successful in that part, since Frank was introduced in ''Daredevil'' Season 2, and the Colonel Schoonover plotline from that show is what sets up the events of this show, but for the most part the show remains pretty isolated. The Doylist explanation is that the writers thought that mentioning Matt’s "death" would be too confusing for first-time viewers who hadn’t watched ''The Defenders'' or ''Daredevil''. So they settled for small acknowledgements– the photo in her apartment, her state of sadness throughout the show, etc.– things that were meaningful to ''Daredevil'' fans without being overt.\\

** A reason why Matt wouldn't be so much as mentioned is because these shows are character-driven shows first and comic book shows second. Plus the tones don't run. It takes away from ''The Punisher'' world of a military conspiracy out to get Frank, if Karen mentions details about Matt "dying" fighting mystical ninjas. Plus, technically Karen's an outsider to the ''Punisher'' storyline, since she's got no connections to the skeletons of Frank's past.

** Even if he thought of patting the sleeves pretty sure Billy would just use the fact that he extended his arm to pat him down to take the advantage as well as when he took advantage of Stein's shock. Also given Billy surrendered when he said freeze he can't shoot him in the back just because Billy killed SWAT team, otherwise he might as well shoot him after handcuffing him from Internal Affairs. Also keep in mind Sam would prefer have him alive and answer questions than trying to shoot him from a somewhat long distance.
** Because law enforcement officers and agents are not executioners. Their job is to arrest suspects to allow due process to run its course, not determine guilt or innocence in the heat of a single moment. Billy was not an immediate threat to Sam (that Sam was aware of), and he had the opportunity to arrest him without killing him, so he was legally required to attempt to do so. Now, if he had seen Billy shoot that cop, maybe Sam would have shot Billy on sight. He also should never have gone close to Billy in the first place without first waiting for Dinah to arrive, [[IdiotBall but that's a different trope.]]
** This was foreshadowed in Russo's introductory episode: When Sam and Madani were training at Anvil (as part of Madani's BS lie spun up to have an excuse to speak to Russo), Sam freezes over the charging hostage. He locks up in tense situations, and Russo knows it. So he exploited that.
** Legal matters aside vis-a-vis Officer involved shooting and Execution vs Good shoot... the whole point of that Mission was to find out who was after Frank, and to question them about Kandahar... the other four died in a firefight, couldn't be avoided, but shooting the last man, when you don't 'have to' defeats the purpose of the whole operation... had he gone down alongside of the others, it would have been a 'Good Shoot' and they'd have had to make due following the paper trail his involvement would have generated, but that was not plan A

** Karen seems very isolated in ''The Punisher''. This is further supported by the way she speaks about loneliness and how she pushes to remain in touch with Frank somehow. She seems to not even be in touch with Foggy at this point (though we're to assume Foggy probably called her to see if she was okay after the Lewis incident), so Matt's "death" certainly seems to have had far-reaching consequences that will have a big impact on her in ''Daredevil'' season 3. Karen probably compartmentalizes her grief, but around Frank, she seems to drop the act. She's also emotional/tearful in the "Where does it end, Frank?" conversation in a way that very much speaks of raw emotions lurking under the surface.
** A reason why Matt wouldn't be so much as mentioned is because these shows are character shows first and comic book shows second. Plus the tones don't run. It takes away from ''The Punisher'' world of a military conspiracy out to get Frank, if Karen mentions details about Matt "dying" fighting mystical ninjas. Plus, technically Karen's an outsider to the ''Punisher'' storyline, since she's got no connections to the skeletons of Frank's past.

** At the ''Punisher'' ACE Comic-Con panel in January 2018, Jon Bernthal and Ebon Moss-Bachrach suggested that a scene ''had'' been shot where Frank talked with Karen about Matt's "death" was discussed, but it was cut for various reasons.[[note]]This possibly was either in between Frank approaching Karen on the street and walking into her apartment. But more likely, it was part of the conversation they have by the bridge in episode 5. That conversation has them discussing things like Karen wanting Frank to have an 'after', the need to keep each other safe, Karen's comments about being alone, etc. Thematically, making the conversation on her end be about Matt would slot in very neatly[[/note]] On the same token, though, it's possible that ''The Punisher'' couldn't discuss Karen's state of mourning due to outside factors. Namely, that since ''Daredevil'' is Karen's home show, her reaction to Matt's "death" is something that needed to be saved for season 3 of ''Daredevil'', not for ''The Punisher''. I can see how maybe Lightfoot and Bernthal wanted to do that bit, ultimately the conversation about Matt was probably cut because it would risk having huge impacts on how Karen is portrayed in ''Daredevil'' season 3. From a writing standpoint, it makes sense that they could've explored it, but on a grander scale, it just had to be edited out. So that's why she never mentions that she's paying Matt's rent or anything.
** ''The Punisher'' definitely takes place during the time period in between ''The Defenders'' and ''Daredevil'' season 3 where Matt is recovering in the convent. Karen’s general unhappiness in her scenes as well as the shrine to Matt in her apartment are the two key things to look out for. Plus, if Matt were still around, there’s no way he would have sat idle once Lewis threatened Karen on the radio. And losing Matt would definitely color Karen's interactions with Frank. In ''The Defenders'', she was worried that Matt’s vigilantism was going to ruin his life, and then (as far as she knows) it got him killed. So that’s got to affect her attitude toward any other vigilantes she knows and cares about.
** Yes, it's a little odd that Frank didn't ask about Matt after everything they went through in season 2 of ''Daredevil'', ESPECIALLY with Karen being around. But you have to remember that all of Karen's scenes with Frank in ''Daredevil'' were being told from Karen's perspective. Try seeing the interactions from Frank's perspective: Frank never really had any time to just chat with Karen. He only ever reached out to her when he needed to hit her up for information or when he was protecting her from some imminent threat. Then there's that scene in the courtroom at Frank's trial where it's heavily suggested that Frank picked up on who Matt really is, but it was never brought up. This means that Frank might not know that Karen knows Matt is Daredevil. If that's the case, it would seem pretty odd for Frank to ask about Matt considering that they made it a point in ''Daredevil'' Season 2 that Matt wasn't actually working on Frank's case as much as the others, instead being interested in helping Elektra fight ninjas. If anything, it would've made more sense for Frank to ask about Foggy.

** Since all we saw of the Gnuccis consisted of one group being robbed by low level thugs before being killed, it seems they aren’t that powerful as of yet. Keep in mind, Fisk was slowly building up his FBI extortion racket from prison and waiting for his leverage on Ray Nadeem to run its course, the Hand has been destroyed, Harlem's gangs are regrouping, and the three gangs involved in the murder of Frank’s family have been wiped out. There is always room for new organizations to rise up.

** It's possible, but Lewis never seemed to really want help in the first place. Being betrayed by O'Connor, still being convinced by his lies, the corrupt cop, etc, were definitely the perfect storm that sent him over the edge.

*** There's even an argument to be made that Lewis was just looking out for an excuse to hurt somebody (because there are a lot of incongruities in his behavior and his rhetoric that show that he doesn't believe his own bullshit). Lewis is actually a lot like Matt in that regard[[note]]since Matt deep down enjoys hurting people and Foggy even suggested in "Nelson v. Murdock" that putting that molester father in the hospital was about Matt having an excuse to hit somebody[[/note]].

On top of that, Lewis was actually a lot more volatile than anyone - O’Connor, Curtis, his own father - wanted to admit. For Curtis and his dad, it's understandable why they'd miss the signs. Once they recognize how far he’s spiraling and they try to control Lewis and force him to get more help, it's too late as the damage is already irrepairable. He feels hurt and betrayed. Moreover, they had blinders up about how dangerous Lewis could be not just to himself but to others and really even didn't think that he could be dangerous to others at all. We, as the audience, see how close Lewis was to suicide, when he tried eating the barrel of his gun. I think that possibility is all that Curtis and his dad saw before it was too late. His dad, thinking that the only way he’d hurt others would be by accident (the way he almost died waking up Lewis from a nightmare) and Curtis, thinking that Lewis just now might kill himself in that foxhole when he dug it. That Lewis could pick up O’Connor’s political position to a terroristic extreme and kill others? Curtis didn't remotely recognize that until Lewis went and did it. [[TheWoobie And his poor dad… almost certainly found out from the news. What a terrible way.]]

*** They weren't expecting a black-ops trained death squad willing to shoot it out with the police. Most criminals, when confronted with a fully-equipped tactical unit of federal law enforcement, tend to surrender. That and it's rare to expect an elite squad of mercenaries who are willing to fight to the death to run around on US soil; they were expecting a group of armed organized crime hitmen who might shoot back, not ex-military black-ops types. Madani said as much after the shootout. Also keep in mind that most of those guys in that group ''might'' have been willing to drop their weapons and surrender, as they hesitated and seemed about to give up, but Russo decided the outcome for everyone by opening fire immediately.

*** That part about "Pete" acting nothing like Frank Castle also helps, as the context also counts. It's just like how in real life, many people won't recognize a celebrity unless they're wearing a ton of makeup, wearing nice clothes, and well-lit.
** There are a LOT of guys in New York City that look vaguely like Frank Castle. Nobody there wants to make eye contact with anyone. It’s been months since the trial, he’s supposed to be dead, and 99.99% of people in New York City don't care. Plus Frank deliberately kept a hood up and had minimal interactions with anyone who wasn’t integral to the plot. You also need to consider that not everyone gets injected with a daily dose of news that they magically shelve in their brains, and even if they did, most of them wouldn't be able to recall yesterday's news if they had two hands and a flashlight.

** She just made herself a target anyway after calling him a coward, so they would just have been a bomb put in the Bulletin, plus unless she read the script she shouldn't know ANVIL are just extra that can't stop a mentally perturbed man, that's usually the first thing security expect and prepare for.

** In addition, Rawlins had no reason to believe that anyone would be out there looking for Gunner. If his body was found, it would be assumed he was a hunter who died from a misfire. Nine fully-armed commandos dying in close proximity, however? That would be a state police investigation, bare minimum, and might get bumped up to FBI or Homeland if their ties to Anvil were uncovered.

** Russo is the founder and pretty much the only one running it, because surprisingly there are not a lot of people you can trust when you recruit people to commit shady stuff. Like that tactician aspect means jack shit if you don't find someone you think won't snitch on you. Plus Russo fits perfectly as TheFace more than any PTSD ridden soldier he recruits to do wet work.

** Since Russo founded Anvil after his discharge, and this was no more than two to three years ago, it's still a relatively new company. As CEO / Owner / founder, he'd naturally still be in a position to be glad handing and preening to make the company look attractive... and he's still close enough to the field that his recruits (such as they are) would still see him as one of them. It would only be as Anvil gets larger and larger that Russo becomes less of a 'soldier' that he'd need a middle man on that side, and if Anvil doesn't have too many contracts, he'd still be able to manage them personally.

** Anvil ''is'' a private security firm. That and the mistakes that they made actually mirror the kind of mistakes that other security firms like Blackwater have made in the past when guarding [=VIPs=].
** This had been similarly acknowledged when Russo was hiring operatives for the ambush on Dinah's SWAT team, as he told them "There's not much of anything I can do about a Website/YouTube video of you guys opening up on a bunch of Iraqi civilians."
** Senators do not typically get Secret Service. The exceptions are when they’re running for President, when they happen to have an immediate family who served as president/vice president (like Hillary Clinton), when they’re traveling overseas, or if they’re leadership (the Senate Leaders, etc). You could make a case that since there was indeed a threat against the Senator and Karen, hiring private security would not be out of the question or Secret Service would indeed get involved. You might even have the NYPD or the New York State Police on hand. What is ridiculous is that the private security they did hire were wearing uniforms. For the kind of money I assume is changing hands for a premium outfit like Anvil, and to have them in an environment where they are guarding and essentially staffing a high profile Senator who is sensitive about the appearance of hired security, those guys would be plain clothes/wearing cheap suits.

** Did Karen ever disclose to anyone afterward that she went to Colonel Schoonover's place? It's possible that she did tell Matt about it after the fact, but we don't know what was said in the "I'm Daredevil" reveal conversation. We know on-camera that Karen told Ellison that she had an idea of someone she could talk to about Frank as a good person, to write about his personal/human-interest story first and the descent into The Punisher second, but she didn’t explicitly tell Ellison that it was Colonel Schoonover. Her car got wrecked, but it wasn't in his driveway. It's possible she didn't call the cops, since Frank was in the woods, but she would’ve had to call AAA or another towing company to get her car towed, which is a record that Dinah wouldn’t have. And no one else was at home with Schoonover when Karen arrived, so no one else (aside from maybe Matt) knows she was actually there. There's a lot that happened offscreen that we didn't see. It's possible that Karen lied, and said she got into a wreck on her way to Schoonover's house, or got in a hit-and-run. Or maybe her car was able to start and she left in it and lied about her injuries occurring elsewhere when she went to the hospital (since she had to have at least partially dislocated her shoulder and all that) So maybe no one knows Karen had any presence anywhere near Schoonover’s death either. And she simply told Ellison that the lead didn’t want to talk to her or some other excuse without ever having to divulge that the person was the now-deceased Schoonover.

** Remember that ANVIL is mostly made of dishonorably discharged soldiers so Russo can do wet work, even if Lewis was competent it would have ended poorly for him.

** While prolonged exposure therapy is a valid treatment for PTSD, even that therapy relies on safe exposition to the triggers and is about reducing the distress caused by the trauma reminders. Joining Anvil would only work for Lewis in combination with some really extensive in-house therapy, in which someone like Curtis would be with him every step of the way. And that option isn't viable because we're talking about Lewis being in potential life-or-death situations and his emotional state is too unpredictable/volatile for that by far. He would perhaps put other people's lives at risk with his responses, and that is just the ''best case'' scenario in Curtis's opinion.

** Considering that her husband was supposedly shot and killed by men wearing fake police uniforms, it makes sense that she's inherently suspicious of cops at this point.

** The only thing we know for certain, when correlating this with the other shows, is that ''The Punisher'' takes place after ''The Defenders'' and before ''Daredevil'' season 3, during the time period where Matt is presumed to be dead following the destruction of Midland Circle. This can be deduced from Karen’s general state of mourning and wardrobe choices[[note]]Primarily blacks and blues, the colors of sadness and mourning[[/note]], as well as the fact that if Matt were still alive and kicking, there’s no way he would have sat on the sidelines once Lewis publicly threatened Karen on the radio.[[note]]Remember that he was tipped into freakout mode when the Hand kidnapped Karen, and his immediate reaction to Sowande threatening the heroes' loved ones was to immediately run to Karen's office[[/note]] How long after ''The Defenders'' that the events of ''The Punisher'' take place, though, is harder to tell. At best, it's probably a few weeks, since the Empire State Building is lit up in red during the first episode when Frank is working on the construction site (much like it was in Danny's last shot in ''The Defenders''), while in episode 2, Ellison can be seen holding a newspaper that's headlined "Chaos Under the Streets." And in ''Daredevil'' season 3, it's not really established how long it's been since ''The Defenders'', although it's very likely Ellison's attitude with Karen for investigating Fisk against his explicit instructions is the result of ongoing tensions from what happened with Lewis.

** It wasn't supposed to be a debate about guns, it was a discussion about a recent terrorist act. Karen was likely invited because she deliberately provoked Lewis in her article, while Senator Ori wanted to be there to use the event as a soapbox for his anti-gun campaign (and Ian the station manager who oversaw accepted because bringing a politician on the air, especially one who's up for reelection, draws in crucial demographics). While you could make a case that the announcers would likely try to rerail the conversation about the original subject, the Netflix series take artistic license when it comes to media or public speech.

* That's what Karen writes in her op-ed about Lewis. Why does that critique not extend to her old pal Frank, but does apply to Matt? I find it weird how Karen approves of Frank going on a homicidal rampage of revenge but wasn’t ok with Matt beating bad guys up and leaving them for the cops.