History Headscratchers / TalesOfXillia2

* This troper doesn't understand how Ludger could possibly beat the ENTIRE XILLA 1 CAST, Gaius and Muzet without dying. Ludger isn't more skilled than the party who (with the exception of Elize) Have been fighting and training longer than he has. Ludger's powers may be broke but there is no way that he could be able to take on Milla Maxwell, 5 Great Spirits, King Gaius, The Conductor, Two Martial Artists, A Trained Mercenary and a Enhanced Child. All of these people attack him at once. Putting aside the fact that it is eight on one (twelve if you count the Four), those are all incredibly powerful individuals. If you wanted to argue that Ludger could take each of them in a one-on-one, then while I might not agree with you in regards to certain individuals, I could maybe suspend my disbelief for that. But all of them? At once? I don’t care how “hax” Ludger’s power is supposed to be, nor do I care how upset he is. That’s simply not possible to me, from a realistic standpoint considering the parameters set in this universe with regards to those characters. It Seems more like a Forced and Contrived convenience to say "Wow Ludger is such a Badass he can kill the Whole Party" really it is more like a Light Novel. Where the Character is only a "Badass" So the player can project themselves onto them.

** That...still doesn't make sense because Ludger is coming at them with the intention of Killing. They would all be going all out, especially if he killed even one of them. As for [[Spoiler: Victor]], it is never stated if he killed them at once, if he thought them separately or in pairs, so that is a kind of vague. it is also shown that Victor had a full Chromatus, but Ludger only had a level 2 at that part in the story, so him fighting on par with Victor made no sense. Also the AxCrazy thing makes even less since because then he would be wide open for any type of hit and blow, seeing as how his skills would actually be diminished from Lack of coherent thought. The Chromatus may be a gift that is granted to the Kresnik clan by a stronger spirit, but still realistically in the context of the Story, it wouldn't be strong enough to handle Lord Maxwell and 5 Great Spirits. and then on top of that Ludger is still a normal human himself, like King Gauis, despite having all this power. From an in story point of view, he wouldn't survive that battle realistically, in the context of the Xillia Universe. The Bad Ending trys to present this as a "Quick and Effortless" Battle for the Stu/Player Insert Ludger, but it is clearly breaking established Power settings. it makes no sense. down to the wire.
** Victor is no where near in good condition when they fighting against him justified he has been suffers from Divergence Catalyst from very long time as well as it's cause his mental issue as well (and he still get an upperhand anyway until Elle and DC both screw him). Power-level wise Chromatus (Which has it's setback) is strong enough to fight against Great Spirit, Going from plot pov, the party still has a hard time dealing with Chronos while Bisley can beat the him without a sweat and they can't even beat him until Ludger unlock his 4th Level. The "Quick and Effortless" is Jossed, The screen after the fight clearly show that Ludger, while won the fight he doesn't [[CurbStompBattle curb stomp]] them as it's was already a night time which mean the battle actually last pretty long contrast to his duel with [[Spoiler: Julius]]. And to remind you that this ending is "non-canon" this never actually happen but is it's possible? maybe. (Say [[TalesOfDestiny]] Leon in his route).

** This Troper remembers that Ludger is just standing still covered in light blood, not his own blood. The light amount of Blood insinuates that the fight did not take that long. and to think that Ludger could dodge all 5 Great Spirits, 6 if you count Muzet there as well, while fighting the entire Xillia Cast and Gaius, at the same time, is ludicrous. The whole Ending is crazy in somehow stating that Ludger would somehow still be alive, because even though Chromatus shakes off Bullets, I doubt it would shake off Multiple wounds that would be causing Death to him. Heck we know that Milla, Gaius and Muzet would be fighting to kill and that alone is really more than enough to take down Ludger in the terms of the actual universe. But Xillia 2 doesn't care about actual in game characters powers and established parameters. They changed everything so that Ludger could all of a sudden be more powerful than the entire party because of his "Hax" powers, but I don’t care how “hax” Ludger’s power is supposed to be, nor do I care how upset he is. That’s simply not possible to me, from a realistic standpoint considering the parameters set in this universe with regards to those characters. I’m sorry, but there is no conceivable way he can win this and still be a believable character within this universe. It simply is not believable even a little bit. but of course, Ludger is a Self-insert/Gary Stu character, so him being able to win for no other reason than existing allows him to win. he was literally conceived to be the player’s self-insert power fantasy, and so the player has to be all powerful at all times. What better way to make the dudes playing feel powerful than to give them a guy that can beat down all of the above? It is the ultimate power fantasy this series has to offer, actual story and character integrity be damned. There’s no other way it makes sense.
** How can the fight doesn't last long? Considering the environment around and you would see it. Also to remind that Great Spirit themselves in this universe aren't practically god or invincible and can easily get themselves killed if they get a direct hit. Considering 2 of the strongest spirits get owned by a normal humans in both games. Not to mention Ludger also goes [[NextTierPowerUp 75% Chromatus]]for the first time as well.
** No Great Spirits are not invincible in the Xillia Universe but they are extremely powerful beings capable of God Like Feats. Sealing away worlds, ruling over all the elements, controlling time, traversing the dimensional boundaries etc etc. the only spirit we see get owned is Chronos, since Maxwell was actually crushing the party just fine in Xillia 1 until Milla Showed up and basically weakened him, thus allowing for Gaius and Muzet to come in and fight and restrain a tired Maxwell. But in the Bad Ending everyone is at their top conditions. Sure the Chromatus regenerates Ludger I doubt it can keep up with how quickly he would actually be getting damaged. His power up still shouldn't matter since he is losing to Bisley and to Chronos again in the end of the game. The Bad Ending and really the whole game just hypes up and over powers the Chromatus for the sake of Ludger never losing. This Troper agrees with the Original Troper. It just isn't possible in the context of the Xillia Universe. But hey, not like Xillia 2 actually paid any attention to what Xillia 1 did since it Retcon's most of the stuff.

** Minor nitpick but there is other surviving members of the Kresnik Clan outside the named characters, they were simply not powerful enough and not well-known enough to be worth mentioning unless you talk to the NPCs in the Spirius Building thus Elle isn't the last of the Kresnik Clan.

[[WMG: How did Elle not recognize [[spoiler:Ludger as Victor, her father, from the very beginning?]]]]

** They never lost their moral objections - Origin's simply the only one who could do it in time (and efficiently), so they'd just want to get it over with. As for the catalysts, Origin said he'd destroy all fractured dimensions, and he did - even when Elle or Ludger became them, they didn't become fractured dimensions; just vanished completely. This obviously made them the last ones included to destroy in Origin's efforts, since it would take a little time to do so. As for the Kresniks, that depends. The Chromatus was granted to the Kresnik family as part of Origin's Trial... which one way or another, they just ended. It could have been taken from the Kresnik line, as there would no longer be any need for the Chromatus, since it's purpose was a 'test of power' and the ability to destroy fractured dimensions (ie no longer needed). If not... well the reason so many Kresnik's abused the power was because of the wish of Origin's Trail, which again they just completed... the only one left (that we know of) is Elle, who may/may not have the power herself, and wouldn't use it anyway if she did. In the Semi-Good Ending, this would restart the problem, because of the Victor implication... but in the True Ending, the last (known) remaining Kresnik would have no interest in using it anyway, because she wants to live to honor Ludger.

** Not much was actually Retconned, aside from the spirit clime thing... and anyway, Ludger only loses to Chronos because of his time-rewind ability, when otherwise he overpowered him once he got strong enough. Bisley had a lot of strength and the power of Origin through Elle, and therefore enough power to overpower Ludger's Chromatus... BUT without it, Ludger could quite possibly match him, even before Lvl 4 Chromatus then completely overpowers him. It is ''entirely'' conceivable that Ludger could kill the entire party, not all at the same time but over a period of time, in such context (the lack of blood is more of a discretion thing; it's not completely indicative, especially since by that logic, stabbing someone for their catalyst should get more blood than we're shown). Especially since for the Great Spirit's he's facing - Milla and Muzet - he would just need to destroy their bodies, which would disperse their spirit essence (not actually kill them). They are powerful, but they aren't invulnerable; even Chronos isn't, because he relies on his time-rewind to heal damage, rather than nullifying it from the start.

** Not much was actually Retconned, aside from the spirit clime thing... and anyway, Ludger only loses to Chronos because of his time-rewind ability, when otherwise he consistently overpowered him once he got strong enough. Bisley had a lot of strength and the power of Origin through Elle, and therefore enough power to overpower Ludger's Chromatus... BUT without it, Ludger could quite possibly match him, even before Lvl 4 Chromatus then completely overpowers him. It is ''entirely'' conceivable imo that Ludger could kill the entire party, not all at the same time but over a period of time, in such context. Especially since for the Gods he's facing - Milla and Muzet - he would just need to destroy their bodies, which would disperse their spirit essence (not actually kill them). They are powerful, but they aren't invulnerable; even Chronos isn't, because he relies on his time-rewind to heal damage, rather than nullifying it from the start.

** No Great Spirits are not invincible in the Xillia Universe but they are extremely powerful beings capable of God Like Feats. Sealing away worlds, ruling over all the elements, controlling time, traversing the dimensional boundaries etc etc. the only spirit we see get owned is Chronos, since Maxwell was actually crushing the party just fine in Xillia 1 until Milla Showed up and basically weakened him, thus allowing for Gaius and Muzet to come in and fight and restrain a tired Maxwell. But in the Bad Ending everyone is at their top conditions. Sure the Chromatus regenerates Ludger I doubt it can keep up with how quickly he would actually be getting damaged. His power up still shouldn't matter since he is losing to Bisley and to Chronos again in the end of the game. The Bad Ending and really the whole game just hypes up and over powers the Chromatus for the sake of Ludger never losing. This Troper agrees with the Original Troper. It just instant possible in the context of the Xillia Universe. But hey, not like Xillia 2 actually paid any attention to what Xillia 1 did since it Retcon's most of the stuff .

** This Troper remembers that Ludger is just standing still covered in light blood, not his own blood. The light amount of Blood insinuates that the fight did not take that long. and to think that Ludger could dodge all 5 Great Spirits, 6 if you count Muzet there as well, while fighting the entire Xillia Cast and Gaius, at the same time, is ludicrous. The whole Ending is crazy in somehow stating that Ludger would somehow still be alive, because even though Chromatus shakes off Bullets, I doubt it would shake off Multiple wounds that would be causing Death to him. Heck we know that Milla, Gaius and Muzet would be fighting to kill and that alone is really more than enough to take down Ludger in the terms of the actual universe. But Xillia 2 doesn't care about actual in game characters powers and established parameters. They changed everything so that Ludger could all of a sudden be more powerful than the entire party because of his "Hax" powers, but I don’t care how “hax” Ludger’s power is supposed to be, nor do I care how upset he is. That’s simply not possible to me, from a realistic standpoint considering the parameters set in this universe with regards to those characters. I’m sorry, but there is no conceivable way he can win this and still be a believable character within this universe. It simply is not believable even a little bit.but of course, Ludger is a Self-insert/Gary Stu character, so him being able to win for no other reason than existing allows him to win. he was literally conceived to be the player’s self-insert power fantasy, and so the player has to be all powerful at all times. What better way to make the dudes playing feel powerful than to give them a guy that can beat down all of the above? It is the ultimate power fantasy this series has to offer, actual story and character integrity be damned. There’s no other way it makes sense.

* So they wish Origin to destroy all the Fractured Dimensions. Apparently they lost their moral objections to destroying other worlds to save their own now they're not doing it themselves. But the bigger question is, does that really save their world? In both normal endings, at least one person becomes a catalyst '''after''' the dimensions are destroyed and there are still descendants of Kresnik who can use the chromatus and turn into more catalysts. Doesn't the ending just restart the whole mess from the beginning?

** It never was stated that Victor killed all of them at once, but he did kill all of them (save Gaius apparently, but he was crippled). Also, you assume being AxCrazy would make him open to blows, because he's not operating at peak condition or rational thought - there's no evidence that's the case in all instances here. Victor was Ax-Crazy, weakened from becoming a Divergence Catalyist, yet still fought at peak-for-weakened-state power, enough to basically match Ludger's lvl 2 Chromatus + the party (except when he got stabbed at the very end). Similar applies to Ludger in the Bad Ending, because they are the same person: he's a man who's been pushed over the edge, with only one goal: protect his brother, which means killing them all... and unlike Victor, he is ''not'' weakened in any meaningful way by that point. That would focus his adrenaline, sharpen the reflexes/skills, and so forth... and where it was presented that it was 'quick and effortless'? Ludger was bleeding in said ending, completely unmoving out of apparent exhaustion (until Julius's pain got his attention), and nothing says he did so that easily - not to mention, all logic says it was an intense battle. Speaking of which, Ludger is a regular human, but as we saw from Victor when he got shot down in the beginning, the Chromatus can brush off fatal wounds fairly easily (seen by the bullets 'falling' out of his body), and Ludger was no doubt using it a lot, if not near-full-time... the others cannot say the same thing for ''their'' mortal wounds. And even if Ludger is facing Maxwell and Five Great Spirits, if Ludger can dodge all their attacks in either form (look at Ridueax, who did the same thing when Milla was released), that power isn't a guarantee for the party... a great effort to overcome, but not an impossibility... which basically applies to the whole fight itself.

** It never was stated that Victor killed all of them at once, but he did kill all of them (save Gaius apparently, but he was crippled). Also, you assume being AxCrazy would make him open to blows, because he's not operating at peak condition or rational thought - there's no evidence that's the case in all instances here. Victor was Ax-Crazy, weakened from becoming a Divergence Catalyist, yet still fought at peak-for-weakened-state power, enough to overpower Ludger's lvl 2 Chromatus + the party (except when he got stabbed at the very end). Similar applies to Ludger in the Bad Ending, because they are the same person: he's a man who's been pushed over the edge, with only one goal: protect his brother, which means killing them all. That would focus his adrenaline, sharpen the reflexes/skills, and so forth... and where it was presented that it was 'quick and effortless'? Ludger was bleeding in said ending, completely unmoving out of apparent exhaustion (until Julius's pain got his attention), and nothing says he did so that easily - not to mention, all logic says it was an intense battle. Speaking of which, Ludger is a regular human, but as we saw from Victor when he got shot down in the beginning, the Chromatus can brush off fatal wounds fairly easily (seen by the bullets 'falling' out of his body), and Ludger was no doubt using it a lot, if not near-full-time... the others cannot say the same thing for ''their'' mortal wounds. And even if Ludger is facing Maxwell and Five Great Spirits, if Ludger can dodge all their attacks in either form (look at Ridueax, who did the same thing when Milla was released), that power isn't a guarantee for the party... a great effort to overcome, but not an impossibility... which basically applies to the whole fight itself.

** Victor is no where near in good condition when they fighting against him justified he has been suffers from Divergence Catalyst from very long time as well as it's cause his mental issue as well (and he still get an upperhand anyway until Elle and DC both screw him). Power-level wise Chromatus (Which has it's setback) is strong enough to fight against Great Spirit, Going from plot pov, the party still has a hard time dealing with Chronos while Bisley can beat the him without a sweat and they can't even beat him until Ludger unlock his 4th Level. The "Quick and Effortless" is Jossed, The screen after the fight clearly show that Ludger, while won the fight he doesn't [[CurbStompBattle curb stomp]] them as it's was already a night time which mean the battle actually last pretty long contrast to his duel with [[Spoiler: Julius]]. And to remind you that this ending is "non-canon" this never actually happen but is it's possible? maybe. (Say [[TalesOfDestiny]] Leon in his route).

** That...still doesn't make sense because Ludger is coming at them with the intention of Killing. They would all be going all out, especially if he killed even one of them. As for [[Spoiler: Victor]], it is never stated if he killed them at once, if he thought them separately or in pairs, so that is a kind of vague. it is also shown that Victor had a full Chromatus, but Ludger only had a level 2 at that part in the story, so him fighting on par with Victor made no sense. Also the AxCrazy thing makes even less since because then he would be wide open for any type of hit and blow, seeing as how his skills would actually be diminished from Lack of coherent thought. The Chromatus may be a gift that is granted to the Kresnik clan by a stronger spirit, but still realistically in the context of the Story, it wouldn't be strong enough to handle Lord Maxwell and 5 Great Spirits. and then on top of that Ludger is still a normal human himself, like King Gauis, despite having all this power. From an in story point of view, he wouldn't survive that battle realistically, in the context of the Xillia Universe. The Bad Ending trys to present this as a "Quick and Effortless" Battle for the Stu/Player Insert Ludger, but it is clearly breaking established Power settings. it makes no sense. down to the wire.

** Look closely at the cutscenes when Ludger [[spoiler: and Victor]] go full out; they're so good that they block each other's bullets while moving. That's the normal skill level, enough to handle three different weapon styles at once, skilled at all of them - the Chromatus is an entirely different power level granted by Spirits higher than Lord Maxwell him/herself (let alone Muzet or the Four Great Spirits). In the Bad Ending's cutscene, this fully allowed him to meet and attack all eight of them at once... and those were just brief skirmishes, where the Chromatus' only limit is the person's body (outside of gameplay). In addition, most of the Xillia cast are normal humans, despite wielding artes/weapons/skills - only Milla and Muzet are not, but they are still spirits that have taken human form, and therefore have human weakness (whether killing them did so for real, or 'merely' dissipated the masses of mana that were their human forms). In the end it would be difficult, incredibly exhausting... but possible...

* I believe Bisley wanted to have all the spirits be stripped of their freewill and become pretty much become tools of humanity that simply keep the world going instead of treating them like living beings who have their own will, emotions and thoughts, not getting rid of them in general.
* If million catalysts are made, doesn't humanity technically speaking failed the trial? Even if Julius was healed, unless Origin decides to be lenient to Bisley like what he did Elle's ending, humanity is doomed.

* This troper doesn't understand how Ludger could possibly beat the ENTIRE XILLA 1 CAST, Gaius and Muzet without dying. Ludger isn't more skilled than the party who (with the exception of Elize) Have been fighting and training longer than he has. Ludger's powers may be broke but there is no way that he could be able to take on Milla Maxwell, 5 Great Spirits, King Gaius, The Conductor, Two Martial Artists, A Trained Mercenary and a Enhanced Child. All of these people attack him at once. Putting aside the fact that it is eight on one (twelve if you count the Four), those are all incredibly powerful individuals. If you wanted to argue that Ludger could take each of them in a one-on-one, then while I might not agree with you in regards to certain individuals, I could maybe suspend my disbelief for that. But all of them? At once? I don’t care how “hax” Ludger’s power is supposed to be, nor do I care how upset he is. That’s simply not possible to me, from a realistic standpoint considering the parameters set in this universe with regards to those characters.
It Seems more like a Forced and Contrived convenience to say "Wow Ludger is such a Badass he can kill the Whole Party" really it is more like a Light Novel. Where the Character is only a "Badass" So the player can project themselves onto them.
** The point is the party has no intention to 'kill' him while Ludger has an intention and willing to do so including throwing his life away as he properly went AxCrazy at that point. [[spoiler: Victor]] also did manage to do this in his dimension. There is also Chromatus's body enhancement and healing factor (If you remembered Victor himself got gundown by the whole group of agents and survived) to keep him going.

It Seems more like a Forced and Contrived convenience to say "Wow Ludger is such a Badass he can kill the Whole Party" really it is more like a Light Novel. Where the Character is only a "Badass" So the player can project themselves onto them.

* The Fractured and Prime dimension version of the same cannot exist in the prime dimension, okay. But does this honestly work for Alt Milla [[spoiler: and Victor]]? Considering Alt Milla is ''vastly'' different from Prime Milla in that her personality and way of growing up are nothing alike and that Alt Milla has lost her position as Lord of Spirits, would she still count as the same 'Milla' in the prime dimension? [[spoiler: Milla herself didn't disappear because Alt Milla appeared, after all; she was shoved into the dimensional abyss by Chronos, apparently.]] The same goes for [[spoiler: Victor]]. [[spoiler: He is an older version of Ludger, with a different Chromatus and further advanced.]] Doesn't this mean that [[spoiler: Alt Milla sacrificing herself to bring Prime Milla back turned it into a StupidSacrifice]]? [[spoiler: And made Victor's plan pointless and unnecessary, since he would not have disappeared from the prime dimension, because he is so different from that Ludger?]]