Follow TV Tropes

Following

History Fridge / TheWheelOfTime

Go To

OR

Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None


*** Considering that [[spoiler: the Dark One has been completely re-sealed]], it's ''extremely'' doubtful that Moghedien and Graendal remain immortal [[spoiler: if they ever really were at all; immortality was what the Dark One promised his Chosen, but apart from Ishamael- who drew the True Power so heavily it would have killed him if he ''wasn't''- they only demonstrated the extreme longevity common to all AoL channelers, plus milennia in stasis when they didn't age. Promising immortality and not actually delivering except to the one guy on your team who ''wanted'' to die seems a fairly Dark One-ish move]].

to:

*** Considering that [[spoiler: the Dark One has been completely re-sealed]], it's ''extremely'' doubtful that Moghedien and Graendal remain immortal [[spoiler: if they ever really were at all; immortality was what the Dark One promised his Chosen, but apart from Ishamael- who drew the True Power so heavily it would have killed him if he ''wasn't''- they only demonstrated the extreme longevity common to all AoL [=AoL=] channelers, plus milennia in stasis when they didn't age. Promising immortality and not actually delivering except to the one guy on your team who ''wanted'' to die seems a fairly Dark One-ish move]].
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None



to:

* Mat, the man with supernatural luck, marries a woman who goes on to name herself Fortuona. He quite literally married Lady Luck.

Changed: 60

Removed: 89

Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
Excise Thread Mode natter


** Rand himself is very similar to Myth/KingArthur, who drew from a stone the mystic blade Caliburn (he got Excalibur from the Lady of the Lake, not the stone) and was advised by the wizard Merlin. Lord al'Thor the Dragon drew from the Stone of Tear the mystic blade Callandor and one of his advisers is the bard Thom Merrilin and the other is Moiraine both similar names to "Merlin". He is also closely tied to “the Amyrlin”, to add confusion to the mix.
*** Caliburn and Excalibur are the same sword. The Sword in the Stone didn't have a name.

to:

** Rand himself is very similar to Myth/KingArthur, who drew a sword from a stone stone, weilded the mystic blade Caliburn (he got Excalibur from the Lady of the Lake, not the stone) Caliburn/Excalibur, and was advised by the wizard Merlin. Lord al'Thor the Dragon drew from the Stone of Tear the mystic blade Callandor and one of his advisers is the bard Thom Merrilin and the other is Moiraine both similar names to "Merlin". He is also closely tied to “the Amyrlin”, to add confusion to the mix. \n*** Caliburn and Excalibur are the same sword. The Sword in the Stone didn't have a name.
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None


*** Also, the Aes Sedai aren't the only channeling group, and the other two major ones hide only from Aes Sedai. Everyone in the Aiel and Sea Folk knows that a lot of their Wise Ones and Windfinders can channel. Neither have enslaved their cultures like Shara has; in fact, channeling doesn't even count much among Wise One hierarchy, and even Windfinders are only thirds--in-command on their ships, at best (behind Sailmistresses and Cargomasters). It seems half the world has problems with channelers (Seanchan, Shara, and the Isle of Madness), while the other half does fine with them.

to:

*** Also, the Aes Sedai aren't the only channeling group, and the other two major ones hide only from Aes Sedai. Everyone in the Aiel and Sea Folk knows that a lot of their Wise Ones and Windfinders can channel. Neither have enslaved their cultures like Shara has; in has, or Seanchan did (with additional information confirming that the continents of Seanchan were ruled by Aes Sedai warlords for millennia after the breaking, the factions not having come together White Tower style). In fact, channeling doesn't even count much among Wise One hierarchy, hierarchy (a nebulous thing which a) seems to change based on circumstance and rules that even Egwene, who knows the Wise Ones better than practically anyone, doesn't understand, and b) ultimately boils down to 'nobody crosses Sorilea'), and even Windfinders are only thirds--in-command on their ships, at best (behind Sailmistresses and Cargomasters). It seems half the world has problems with channelers (Seanchan, Shara, and the Isle of Madness), while the other half does fine with them.



** It's implied by many Aes Sedai and out-right said in at least one internal monologue that it is the same as rape. But her having the ability to find him is just too useful so they don't publicly punish her for it.

to:

** It's implied by many Aes Sedai and out-right said in at least one internal monologue that it is the same as rape. But her having the ability to find him is just too useful so they don't publicly punish her for it.it - though in one of her better moments, Cadsuane gives her a memorable tongue-lashing for it, pointing out both its immorality and sheer stupidity, and while what is done is done, it is only the very specific circumstances that spare Alanna from a penance for the ages.



** There's another case of something messing with reincarnation- Mashadar. It's one of the only two things that can keep the Dark One from reviving his Chosen (the other being balefire, which we know from WordOfGod stymies the Dark One because of how it screws with time, but doesn't actually keep the soul from being reincarnated normally), and WordOfGod indicates that this isn't because it destroys the soul, but because if the Dark One tried to bring them (in this case, Sammael) back, they'd [[CameBackWrong Come Back Wrong]]. Now ''that'' implies that the corruption basically "sticks" to the soul, as it were. So would it get "cleaned off" in the time between death and eventual rebirth, or would it still be there? Think about what people under the effects of the "Mordeth power" (Mat, Fain's Whitecloaks, etc.) are like, and now imagine being ''born like that''. *shudder*

to:

** There's another case of something messing with reincarnation- reincarnation - Mashadar. It's one of the only two things that can keep the Dark One from reviving his Chosen (the other being balefire, which we know from WordOfGod stymies the Dark One because of how it screws with time, but doesn't actually keep the soul from being reincarnated normally), and WordOfGod indicates that this isn't because it destroys the soul, but because if the Dark One tried to bring them (in this case, Sammael) back, they'd [[CameBackWrong Come Back Wrong]]. Now ''that'' implies that the corruption basically "sticks" to the soul, as it were. So would it get "cleaned off" in the time between death and eventual rebirth, or would it still be there? Think about what people under the effects of the "Mordeth power" (Mat, Fain's Whitecloaks, etc.) are like, and now imagine being ''born like that''. *shudder*
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None


** Considering that Merlin is the mysterious hero of many King Arthur stories...
** Rand himself is very similar to King Arthur: King Arthur Pendragon drew from a stone the mystic blade Caliburn (he got Excalibur from the Lady of the Lake, not the stone) and was advised by the wizard Merlin. Lord al'Thor the Dragon drew from the Stone of Tear the mystic blade Callandor and one of his advisers is the bard Thom Merrilin and the other is Moiraine both similar names to "Merlin". He is also closely tied to “the Amyrlin”, to add confusion to the mix.

to:

** Considering that Merlin Myth/{{Merlin}} is the mysterious hero of many King Arthur stories...
Myth/ArthurianLegend...
** Rand himself is very similar to King Arthur: King Arthur Pendragon Myth/KingArthur, who drew from a stone the mystic blade Caliburn (he got Excalibur from the Lady of the Lake, not the stone) and was advised by the wizard Merlin. Lord al'Thor the Dragon drew from the Stone of Tear the mystic blade Callandor and one of his advisers is the bard Thom Merrilin and the other is Moiraine both similar names to "Merlin". He is also closely tied to “the Amyrlin”, to add confusion to the mix.
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None

Added DiffLines:

** Also, if Rand and Lew Therin are any indication, the Dragon always brings about the dawn of a new age.
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
Dewicked trope


* More of an AdultFear kind of FridgeHorror than most, and a bit Fridge TearJerker, but Perrin didn't actually undo the Compulsion Lanfear put on him. He resisted the effects long enough to kill her for the sake of the world, thanks largely to his love for Faile, but his brain was still warped into loving her when he did it. That, on top of the general Two Rivers WouldntHitAGirl mindset... no wonder he was crying his eyes out afterward.

to:

* More of an AdultFear kind of a FridgeHorror than most, and a bit Fridge TearJerker, but Perrin didn't actually undo the Compulsion Lanfear put on him. He resisted the effects long enough to kill her for the sake of the world, thanks largely to his love for Faile, but his brain was still warped into loving her when he did it. That, on top of the general Two Rivers WouldntHitAGirl mindset... no wonder he was crying his eyes out afterward.
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
Dewicking Disambig


* The Seanchan view women who can [[WitchSpecies channel]] as dangerous animals that must be [[PowerNullifier leashed]] and made a damane or they will harm everyone around them. The main setting of the westlands shows this is utterly unnecessary. Then Leilwin Shipless makes a remark about how Aes Sedai must be leashed otherwise they will enslave everyone else and turn them into their property. And in Shara this is heavily implied to actually have happened. The only reason this hasn't happened in the westlands or other neighbouring regions is because the Aes Sedai have prevented any other group of channelers from doing this by making them stay hidden or be recruited by the white tower. The Seanchan actually have a very realistic point.

to:

* The Seanchan view women who can [[WitchSpecies channel]] channel as dangerous animals that must be [[PowerNullifier leashed]] and made a damane or they will harm everyone around them. The main setting of the westlands shows this is utterly unnecessary. Then Leilwin Shipless makes a remark about how Aes Sedai must be leashed otherwise they will enslave everyone else and turn them into their property. And in Shara this is heavily implied to actually have happened. The only reason this hasn't happened in the westlands or other neighbouring regions is because the Aes Sedai have prevented any other group of channelers from doing this by making them stay hidden or be recruited by the white tower. The Seanchan actually have a very realistic point.
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None

Added DiffLines:

**** Considering also that time is cyclical, and neither Moghedien nor Graendal are known to have lived through seven Ages, it is highly unlikely that they will live through the next seven Ages either.
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
Added example of Amyrlin Seat to discussion of Rand/King Arthur parallels.


** Rand himself is very similar to King Arthur: King Arthur Pendragon drew from a stone the mystic blade Caliburn (he got Excalibur from the Lady of the Lake, not the stone) and was advised by the wizard Merlin. Lord al'Thor the Dragon drew from the Stone of Tear the mystic blade Callandor and one of his advisers is the bard Thom Merrilin and the other is Moiraine both similar names to "Merlin".

to:

** Rand himself is very similar to King Arthur: King Arthur Pendragon drew from a stone the mystic blade Caliburn (he got Excalibur from the Lady of the Lake, not the stone) and was advised by the wizard Merlin. Lord al'Thor the Dragon drew from the Stone of Tear the mystic blade Callandor and one of his advisers is the bard Thom Merrilin and the other is Moiraine both similar names to "Merlin". He is also closely tied to “the Amyrlin”, to add confusion to the mix.

Added: 929

Changed: 977

Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
Clarification and alternative theory


* Far Madding, the city with ter'angreal prohibiting channeling, was allegedly created shortly after the Breaking and got the idea for the ter'angreal from Ogier stedding. The Ogier gave sanctuary to male channelers after the Breaking, but they [[AddictiveMagic needed their saidin fix]] too badly and always left. Far Madding is an island with only three bridges to it, and no weapons allowed. It would have been a perfect place to put male channelers so they couldn't do any more damage, and also couldn't leave. Far Madding's rather extreme matriarchal customs (even for Randland) and the number of strong female channelers from Far Madding supports this possible history. Though, if a person born with the spark or the ability to learn never left Far Madding, they'd never know they could channel. So the strong channelers could be the result of a lack of culling later on, not just a higher base population in the beginning.

to:

**[[spoiler: Lanfear]] was wearing the Mask of Mirrors and so did not want Mat to be able to touch her and reveal the illusion.
* Far Madding, the city with ter'angreal prohibiting channeling, was allegedly created shortly after the Breaking and got the idea for the ter'angreal from Ogier stedding. The Ogier gave sanctuary to male channelers after the Breaking, but they [[AddictiveMagic needed their saidin fix]] too badly and always left. Far Madding is an island with only three bridges to it, and no weapons allowed. It would have been a perfect place to put male channelers so they couldn't do any more damage, and also couldn't leave. Far Madding's rather extreme matriarchal customs (even for Randland) and the number of strong female channelers from Far Madding supports this possible history. Though, if a person born with the spark or the ability to learn never left Far Madding, they'd never know they could channel. So the strong channelers could be the result of a lack of culling later on, not just a higher base population in the beginning.
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None


** It's probably relatively safe most of the time. Clearly the Dark One doesn't have limitless power to throw around (or he'd break everything constantly), so if you're not ta'veren and aren't one of his big enemies, it's mostly safe to say it. Additionally, the seals are weakening now; it was probably safe to say it for most of the past 3000 years.

to:

** It's probably relatively safe most of the time. Clearly the Dark One doesn't have limitless power to throw around (or he'd break everything constantly), so if you're not ta'veren and aren't one of his big enemies, it's mostly safe to say it. Additionally, the seals are weakening now; it was probably safe to say it for most of the past 3000 years.years.
* Fridge Tearjerker: At the end of the series, [[spoiler:Rand (in Moridin's body), Elayne, Aviendha, and Min]] are all bonded to each other. The first three will outlive the last by several hundred years at least. That means they will all feel the effects of "losing a Warder" and have to deal with the resulting depression.
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None


* At first, the continent-wide bad reputation of the Red Ajah seems undeserved and a case of ProtagonistCenteredMorality. After all, they're the Ajah that deal with men who can channel. When your small town is dealing with one, insane or otherwise, they're the ones most likely to show up to deal with it, and at that point depending on the damage done you'd be damned glad to see them. And yet even non-channeler characters are nervous of them. Given events of the books however, in hindsight it becomes clear there are two very major reasons for this:

to:

* At first, the continent-wide bad reputation of the Red Ajah seems undeserved and a case of ProtagonistCenteredMorality. After all, they're the Ajah that deal with men who can channel. When your small town is dealing with one, insane or otherwise, they're the ones most likely to show up to deal with it, and at that point depending on the damage done you'd be damned glad to see them. And yet even non-channeler characters are nervous of them. Given events of the books however, in hindsight it becomes clear there are two very three major reasons for this:



** Thirdly, before the time of the books, the only two Amyrlin Seats ever to be raised from the Red Ajah were both stripped of office for bringing the Tower into disrepute: one for betraying the nation of Manetheren to the Shadow during the Trolloc Wars, the other for trying to reduce Artur Hawkwing to a puppet king and thereby turning his entire empire against the Aes Sedai. Even with the particulars lost to history, the fact that the Red were responsible for some of the Tower's most disastrous missteps could have contributed too their bad image.

to:

** Thirdly, before the time of the books, the only two Amyrlin Seats ever to be raised from the Red Ajah were both stripped of office for bringing the Tower into disrepute: one for betraying the nation of Manetheren to the Shadow during the Trolloc Wars, the other for trying to reduce Artur Hawkwing to a puppet king and thereby turning his entire empire against the Aes Sedai. Even with the particulars lost to history, the fact that the Red were responsible for some of the Tower's most disastrous missteps could have contributed too to their bad image.

Added: 554

Changed: 3

Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None


** after the Aiel War, there was a continent-wide hidden massacre of men who could ''potentially'' channel perpetrated by the Black Ajah. While not ''every'' hit is likely to have been done by a once-member of the Red, certain conversations between Red Sitters make it clear that they participated in this, as an Ajah, though likely without knowing why. If many, many, ''many'' mysterious deaths all over the continent kept happening for over at most a decade (since it seemed to have stopped by Rand's maturity, and is likely to have been what killed Thom's nephew), and there's always a Red sister hanging around at the time...
** Secondly, Pevara makes it clear that the Red Ajah is the one that is ''specifically trained to counter channelers'', particularly ''male'' channelers, in combat. If they practice on each other, that means that every member of the Red Ajajh has logged in more channeler-to-channeler combat hours than anyone else in the whole White Tower. By making the division of the Tower along Ajah lines, and by trying to position it such that the Red Ajah takes the most heat, and remain ostracized even after the division with Salidar was resolved, the Shadow has made the Ajah with the most chance of winning in combat against its Dreadlords into the ''least'' trusted part of the Tower. If Egwene hadn't gone to great lengths to reintegrate the Red into the Tower, the Ajah most experienced in channeler-to-channeler combat might have been held back from key engagements with Dreadlords due to being ostracized and severely crippled the Tower's combat ability.

to:

** after After the Aiel War, there was a continent-wide hidden massacre of men who could ''potentially'' channel perpetrated by the Black Ajah. While not ''every'' hit is likely to have been done by a once-member of the Red, certain conversations between Red Sitters make it clear that they participated in this, as an Ajah, though likely without knowing why. If many, many, ''many'' mysterious deaths all over the continent kept happening for over at most a decade (since it seemed to have stopped by Rand's maturity, and is likely to have been what killed Thom's nephew), and there's always a Red sister hanging around at the time...
** Secondly, Pevara makes it clear that the Red Ajah is the one that is ''specifically trained to counter channelers'', particularly ''male'' channelers, in combat. If they practice on each other, that means that every member of the Red Ajajh has logged in more channeler-to-channeler combat hours than anyone else in the whole White Tower. By making the division of the Tower along Ajah lines, and by trying to position it such that the Red Ajah takes the most heat, and remain ostracized even after the division with Salidar was resolved, the Shadow has made the Ajah with the most chance of winning in combat against its Dreadlords into the ''least'' trusted part of the Tower. If Egwene hadn't gone to great lengths to reintegrate the Red into the Tower, the Ajah most experienced in channeler-to-channeler combat might have been held back from key engagements with Dreadlords due to being ostracized and severely crippled the Tower's combat ability. ability.
** Thirdly, before the time of the books, the only two Amyrlin Seats ever to be raised from the Red Ajah were both stripped of office for bringing the Tower into disrepute: one for betraying the nation of Manetheren to the Shadow during the Trolloc Wars, the other for trying to reduce Artur Hawkwing to a puppet king and thereby turning his entire empire against the Aes Sedai. Even with the particulars lost to history, the fact that the Red were responsible for some of the Tower's most disastrous missteps could have contributed too their bad image.
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
added detail to example.

Added DiffLines:

** It's implied by many Aes Sedai and out-right said in at least one internal monologue that it is the same as rape. But her having the ability to find him is just too useful so they don't publicly punish her for it.
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
expanded on example


** Rand himself is very similar to King Arthur: King Arthur Pendragon drew from a stone the mystic blade Caliburn (he got Excalibur from the Lady of the Lake, not the stone) and was advised by the wizard Merlin. Lord al'Thor the Dragon drew from the Stone of Tear the mystic blade Callandor and one of his advisers is the bard Thom Merrilin.

to:

** Rand himself is very similar to King Arthur: King Arthur Pendragon drew from a stone the mystic blade Caliburn (he got Excalibur from the Lady of the Lake, not the stone) and was advised by the wizard Merlin. Lord al'Thor the Dragon drew from the Stone of Tear the mystic blade Callandor and one of his advisers is the bard Thom Merrilin.Merrilin and the other is Moiraine both similar names to "Merlin".
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None

Added DiffLines:

** Early on in ''Winter's Heart'', Tuon catches Mat sneaking out of the ''damane'' kennels in [[spoiler:the attic of the Tarasin Palace]]. Naturally, he's just [[ChronicHeroSyndrome agreed to help Teslyn and another Aes Sedai escape]], but he tells Tuon he was bringing snacks to a ''damane'' he knew before she was collared. [[WhenSheSmiles She thinks this is very sweet]]...rather like many girls in our Age might react upon seeing that a boy they know is fond of dogs or other animals.[[note]]She also notes that some people might be tempted to [[RapeIsASpecialKindOfEvil take advantage]] of a powerless woman wearing a leash; although she's as disgusted by the idea as Mat is, there's no doubt that it must happen sometimes back in Seanchan.[[/note]]
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None

Added DiffLines:

*** However, Aviendha has already made changes from what she saw in the vision, from the small (changing the names of her future children) to big (getting Rand to put the Aiel in the Dragon's Peace, the Aiel declaring they will not fight the Seanchan). It's also worth noting that the vision never revealed what happened to Mat or Min after the Last Battle. With Min becoming the Empress's Truthspeaker, she may well prevent whatever led to Tuon's death (the conflict between the Seanchan and the Aiel didn't happen until after this), allowing her to react to the above conflict of beliefs. Between that and Mat and Min's overall influence, it is entirely likely the Seanchan not only won't take over the world, but they will pass through that conflict of beliefs and come out the other side a better culture, without slavery.
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None

Added DiffLines:

** In addition, the place probably had a ''much'' higher proportion of both male and female banished channelers sent there (''any'' channelling criminal could be thrown across those bridges with the throwers being smug in the knowledge that they couldn't do a huge amount to escape). So, the city was likely drip-fed difficult channelers over the centuries between the Breaking and the White Tower finally getting strong enough to act as the stilling and severing Law and Order for rogues for the most of the continent. And, these channelers would have to merged with the baseline genepool, thereby ''increasing'' the proportion of channeling genes within a relatively closed population. Possibly also boosting the stubbornness levels, too.

Top