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All Comments
Team 8- A Different Team, A Different Story
Good review so far! I admit, I stopped my liveblog on this because I lost interest in the fanfiction itself. I just couldn't force myself to read it a third time. XD

ScorpioRat (edited by: ScorpioRat)
I'm glad to hear you like it so far. Out of curiosity, what caused you to lose interest in the fanfic?
Valiona
The honorifics abuse and random Japanese wore on me, I admit. I don't think I would have minded it as much if the dialogue and prose felt a little more natural. Like I said before, it was my third time through after having read it twice 5-6 years ago, so I knew what was going to happen and therefore had no motivation to keep reading on. Hinata's one of my favorite characters and the first couple of chapters really showed how OOC she was along with everyone else. I could tolerate it before, but I couldn't now that I understand her character a little better.

My rule in writing fanfiction now is to not use a character too much if I can't grasp their motives, personality, and reasoning they run on. Otherwise they come off as wrong. And if I can't, at least try to keep their presence to a minimum and treat them with respect. This author failed at that in multiple places, and not even his nail can give me a logical reason for the rampant OO Cness.
ScorpioRat (edited by: ScorpioRat)
Yes, Hinata being far less confident than in canon gets on my nerves, although in my case, the fact that it does is part of what motivates me to write this; when writing reviews to fanfiction, or a liveblog like this, criticism tends to write itself more easily than praise does. Hinata's also one of my favorite Naruto characters, and it's a disheartening to see her reduced to this.
Valiona
I would agree on the Gratuitous Japanese. It can taje one out of being immensed in the story. Plus as having written fanficton myself and using japanese phrases and honorfic's myself (usually swear words when i find it amusing or getting crap past the radar). it's easy to ge tthem wrong unless you have studied japanese.

Yeah i don't get why the author of the fic bashes the hyuga the way he does, shame as he is a fine writer overall, but this and overlooking naruto's own flaws etc bring the quality of the fic down.

Still a great fic, but as tv tropes ymmmv page says, his tenancy to do black and stupid evil villians is a negative in his work i feel.

But great liveblog so far on this fic, your doing a great job.
romancechina88
Shino is actually pretty emotional in canon. He fought Kankuro during the Invasion of the Leaf just because he felt cheated in the Chunin Exams, and then was annoyed when he couldn't go on the Sasuke Retrieval mission.

And yeah, the Hyuga Clan/Hiashi bashing gets old really fast.

ScorpioRat
That's true, even if Shino's emotions are fairly understated.

You'll hear more about the Hyuga Clan/Hiashi bashing whenever he does something notable, reaches a new low, or forgoes a chance to Pet the Dog or develop as a character.
Valiona
yeah i have to agree on the village's hatred of naruto here is a bit excessive. Since while he wasn't treated very well in cnaon, he did bring some of it on himself at times with his pranks and bratty loud behaivour and mouth.There is a reason why even iruka scolds him at times, cause he knows naruto isn't perfect and has a tenancy to put his foot in his motuh at times in part one.

not that i defend the way he was treated at times, but you know the saying if you act like a brat, expect to be treated like one.

i agree on the level of detail in this fic, it is really good at times, i like fic's that do that sort of thing, add or build on what canon didn't do or implied. fleshing out a world's universe, background etc.

Ah yes as you said, too many fic bash naruto wearing orange while ignoring how a lot of characters in naruto wear just as bad clothes for ninjas. plus orange in some circunstances is a good color for a ninja to wear. plus it fits with his way of ninja as he likes to proclaim a lot.

Another fine review blog chapter. Keep it up.
romancechina88
And here's the first instance of Team 7 bashing. I have no idea where the Kiba is a sexist thing came from at all. And considering that half the original Team 7 drama came from Naruto and Sasuke trying to one-up each other, shouldn't this newer team theoretically run smoother since Kiba actually does respect and acknowledge Sasuke's abilities?
ScorpioRat
The fic has some cases of people being labeled as sexist, as well as implying that girls becoming kunoicihis is a relatively new thing and that Kurenai often has to deal with sexism, so I suspect Kiba got tarred with that same brush. I understand that a lot of people believe Naruto, as a series, is sexist, but there aren't that many sexist characters in it, nor is there much of a trend toward sexism in the universe.
Valiona
Yeah, I don't think the series is very sexist in-universe. Kunoichi are not usually considered less deadly than a male ninja, it's just that many female characters get shorter ends of the stick due to the author's decisions. They were meant to be equals in theory, but the execution of the plot didn't support girls very well in the end product.

There's definitely not many actively sexist characters though.
ScorpioRat
i always found the scene where team 7 and team 8 run into each other very weird. As Sasuke i don't think would hang out with either sakura or Kiba, since at that part of the show he kept very much to himself,thought everyone including kakashi would hinder him. I'm not sure overall how sasuke views kiba, since Sasuke never interacts really with the others unless he has to. Since Sasuke even before he lost his family didn't hang out with anyone, and that didn't seem to change as he grew and the series went on.

Yeah the series isn't sexist in universe, well part from Shiramaku's view on women at times in part one, but he grew out of that. Yeah the problem lies in how kishimoto use the women in the series. Hell he even said once he 'forgot' about Sakura, and she's one of the main characters and female lead of the series.

my guess on team 7 passing the bell test, is like in canon dumb luck due to the team members (kiba trying to do it by himself, sakura and sasukes reasons staying the same). Something along those lines and sasuke and sakura deciding to feed kiba due to him being tied up. That's my guess there.

Another good review overall
romancechina88
yeah by this time in the fic, i was getting a bit annoyed at how kurenai's views and teachings seem to always work, when there are flaws in both which have been overlooked in the fic i feel.

The third hokage conceding the arugement was yeah too easy, though it can tie into how he views overall he has been too reasonable and nice as the hokage, which he has really, since he left danzo and Orochimaru get away with a lot of acts that helped shape the series.

But yeah you have a point about kurenai winning arugments too easily, since she never helped Naruto before, so she is in a way just as guilty as the third hokage, Kakashi and as later on when she bashes jiarya (tough not without some cause) of neglecting naruto.

Just my view of coruse as always.

Persoanlly i never Hinata to be an interesting character, she' sweet and her crush on naruto is cute in it's ownw ay, i just feel her role in the series starts and ends with naruto, i mean what's her amibiton in life outside of naruto, what does she view of the village? etc, of course that's the same problem with sakura as well to some degrees, and some of the other women in naruto as well. Not all of them, but a certain degree of the women in naruto can come off this way. Satellite Love Interest is the trope that come sot mind ehre, something i am not fond of overall.

Another fine review keep it up

romancechina88
I personally think canon Kakashi is a fairly good, yet realistic teacher. He teaches his students a fair amount about being ninjas (not as much in the way of jutsus but it can be said for other teachers, save for Guy, whose teaching methods and jutsus are really only good for Lee). However, he can't do everything for them, as while he gives a fairly compelling speech about revenge, he doesn't succeed in turning Sasuke away from that path.

Kurenai didn't help Naruto before, and it's worth noting that she was, in canon, fairly convinced he had no chance against Kiba. Perhaps she would be somewhat more favorable toward him if she was able to watch his development for longer, but I doubt she would be this effective.

Hinata has a fair number of pre-existing goals before meeting Naruto, wanting to live up to her family's expectations, and be there for her friends (the later is why Neji suggests, not without reason, that the main reason she came as far as she did was so that Shino and Kiba would not have to quit). She certainly wants to get together with Naruto, but also looks to him as an inspiration to accomplish her other goals.
Valiona
I would agree that kakashi was a decent teacher and that what happened to team 7 was out of his control. Espsecially Sasuke, as that was more due to Itachi beating him up and mindraping sasuke again, which happened thanks to itachi midnraping kakshi first and that sunglasses guy aiba stupdiy giving info on him away when sasuke was visiting the jouins in kakashi's room.

Plus kakashi put more focus on sasuke overall because he with vadiity saw sauske at more risk of being corrupted than Naruto and the fact Sasuke reminded him of himself as well as the adien on kakashi shows.

I meant in my comment more of how kunerai goes on about kakashi's flaw in the fic etc than kakshis teaching views in canon

Plus the fact Sasuke's flaws and obession with revenge drove his actions in leaving the village.

Yeah true hinata has those things as well so it isn't totally around naruto, again i don't hate her, i just think she isn't very interesting very much and find the anime's team overuse of her a bit overblown, when they flanderize Sakura for no good reason, not that she's a much better character, just wasted overall and underused.

But yeah agree with your points above.

romancechina88
Here, Hiashi seems to engage in displays of wanton cruelty that serve no purpose, and is completely stuck in his ways, unwilling to change.

So, a Saturday morning cartoon villain. I don't think a self-touted more realistic take on a shounen manga should be going in that direction.

So when does Hiashi get a mustache to twirl while he cackles evilly?
MFM
That's an apt way of putting it, although Hiashi doesn't go so far as to openly identify as and express pride in being evil.

Curiously enough, a fair number of Saturday morning cartoon villains don't do anything as terrible or dark as abusing their children, with some notable exceptions (Avatar's Fire Lord Ozai).
Valiona
I think I'd like Hiashi more in this fanfiction if he did have a handlebar mustache and twirled it. At least I would be able to laugh at him then instead of being horribly disappointed.
ScorpioRat
Yeah it can be hard to say just how powerful a character should be, espsecially the main one, since Naruto has worked in ways for his power ups, depsite have the trappings of many shonen hero's, while Sasuke unfortanlity came to have many given powers through his super lottery power, plot armor and that Kishimoto has pulled some asspulls on him at times i.e. the great snake escape being the worst i feel.

Yeah Naruto being too cynical is weird, especially since the series always favors his idealism, even when it can come across as questionable and stupid. Me i like idealism when it's done right, but with naurto i'm mixed, in part one i liked it, but as part two went on, i think kisihimoto hasn't handled it as well.

That and the fact Danzo exists as a character to mainly critize the whole idea of cynicism in many ways. Of course this was written before part two began i think and danzo wasn't round til then. But yeah i share yor view on Naruto's cynicalism, since the idea of him being cyncial is weird to read about in a way i think.
romancechina88
Taking away Naruto's idealism and faith in people feels wrong, I agree. And I think Naruto would start to wonder if he's being used as a tool, but only if the thought was planted by someone else first. And then he'd convince himself that he's just paranoid a few minutes later anyway.

Oh, and the way a jutsu works is explained in the manga, by the way. As a summary: Each jutsu has a certain amount of chakra it needs to function, and if more is created than necessary, then the extra just goes to waste and the jutsu isn't perfect. Kind of like overfilling a cup with water. Underfilling it means the jutsu fails completely (like when Naruto makes a crappy clone or nothing at all).
ScorpioRat
Ah yes Hanabi, one of those characters who is such fuel for fanfic writing that there is never one way of writing her. Plus since she has hardly appeared since part one, it makes it hard to say what exactly her canon personality and traits are exacty.

yeah Mizuki was a jackass, but did raise some points on Iruka and how he viewed naruto, hence why in some ways he makes even more of an effort to be there for Naruto.

I think it's hard to match up to the canon battles with haku and Zabuza hence why stations of canon can come into play quite a bit in fanfic's, since they helped to shape naruto in ways, especially haku's talk to him about protecting those you care about, along with kakashi's fight with zabuza being one of the few he has in part one.

that and the two were great characters and one right in terms of angst, especially in my view when naruto calls zabuza out for showing no emotion to haku's sacrfice. Pus the awesome way zabuza killed gaoto and died, that really hsowed to me how good kishimoto's writing could be at times, a touch i feel has been lost as part two went on.

another good review.

romancechina88
Honestly, the fic feels like it's what would happen if Protagonist-Centered Morality started to change the universe itself. The author absolutely has to make sure anyone who's on the titular team is always in the right, so anyone who could antagonize them does and anyone who does antagonize them has zero sympathetic traits. That way, nobody can possibly misconstrue anything in this fic to see the team as in the wrong. At least, that's the intent.
MFM
rc88,

Yes, those one-scene characters do vary quite a bit in their characterization, but you can only take them so far before they seem at odds with what little you know about them. Hanabi isn't the worst case of this, but there isn't that much evidence *for* her behavior.

That's a good point about Haku's lesson, and how it can be difficult to match with canon. This battle also doesn't teach Naruto any sort of lesson, but merely challenges him in how well he can stick with what he has learned so far.

MFM,

I agree. Part of the reason why Jerkass Has a Point and Dumbass Has a Point can be effective is how they can show that who's right and who's wrong isn't always certain, and how sometimes, you might find yourself agreeing with someone you never think you would.
Valiona
agree with above comments, yes there is little evidence for hanabi's behaviour in this fic. as it makes her less believeable as a character i feel.

i always liked how in part one sasuke got to make some good points from time to time. like when he told sakura she was annoying and she was thw weakest member of their team, which even she came to admit int he forest of death, but sakura got to call him out for his cowardice against orchimaru later on.

One person can't be right all the time, no matter how good, smart or capable they are.

yes the battle above helps to show naruto's training so far, showing hoe hs is progressing and that is what was needed there.

Thank you for the haku mention, i wonder since we later hear about what did happen there in this fic's universe and that haku ran into this time, i wonder if the lession he gave stuck to that person. doubt it. Plus the fact things end a bit differently as well.

I wonder if the effect's in the long term will be noticeable, proabably not, but spectating is part of the fun.
romancechina88
Fun fact: Shino's father's real name is actually Gen, based on the Anime Profile books. Not many people use it though.

And we now have the typical Asshole!Hanabi. Yaaaay...
ScorpioRat
some very nice points made above, naruto isn't stupid just book dumb which depsite what some peolpe think isn't the same thing. his book dumbness has affected him at times like the exams and how he learns as well.

I think one of the reasons canon has gone the way it has is because kishimoto has been writing by the pants of his seat, not a bad thing overlal, but it has affected some of the writing like itachi's being an anti villain al along and some of the ass pulls that have come with it.

you could say naruto went too far in the opposite direction of having humilty as the series went on and unwilling to see other peoples belief. Not willing to see at times that some hard decisions have to be made i.e. sasuke as he got worse and showed no signs at all of ever coming back tot he village.

I feel the idealism in naruto was good in part one, but in part two i feel kishimoto went too far with it as it went on and it affected the quality of it. again sasuke as the example, forgiveness and redemption are only possiblie if the person or people in question as willing to work for it, and sasuke i feel is not and still doesn't consider other peoples view or that his actions have been self centred throughout part two.

Though that i put down to the protoganist centred morality for sasuke and a little bit for naruto as well on the sasuke front.

I always found some of naruto's humor at times to be a charming trait of his, plus it shows how he uses it and his boasting to grab attention and keep himself going at times when he is struggling with something and to contast him to sasuke's silence and brooding behaviour.

Yeah i can understand why some people like team eight more than the series, but to say it does eveeything better than canon is a bit much, since the series made it possiblie to exist in the first place. but that's just me again.

nice review as always.

romancechina88
I too liked the Nine-tails when it was a destructive demon, mainly because the whole "I was just mistreated so now I'm evil!" thing seemed like a massive cop-out when Naruto fixed all Kurama's problems wiht two encounters. If the fox needed to be redeemed, it should have been spread out more and made more obvious.

Adn yeah, killing equalling badassery is stupid considering there are plenty of manga heroes who have an oath against murder and are still really awesome. You know, like Kenshin, who deliberately has a backwards sword so he won't be able to take any more lives in battle.
ScorpioRat
Both of you have some good points. Naruto may not be perfect, but the elements it has are there for a reason. In For Want of a Nail fanfics like this, it's easy to tell where Kishimoto's influence ends and where the fanfic author's begins. Depending on the authors and their intentions, the difference can be slight or it can be vast, and the changes might fit or they might seem at odds with the tone of the original work. Team 8 isn't the worst case of it, but many of the examples of where the author steps in are noticeable and don't mesh with the canon elements.
Valiona
i agree on shino here, his bits in the story were always my favourite, partly due to me liking logical characters really overall, plus the use of some words in his bits were great i felt, always like it when a character uses interesting words.

i always like focus on lee, he's always been a very relateable character in naruto, maybe more so than naruto, consering how hard he works and how nice he is overall.

ah yes neji, yes he was definitley a jerkass at this point of naruto, but as you said he did consider lee a comrade on a level.

i feel team eight got into some of it's best bits around this part of it's story compared to the earlier chapters.

romancechina88
Now that I've finally caught up on this liveblog...XD

Hinata's self esteem really hurts in this fanfic, but it is thankfully going uphill now. I was getting kind of sick if that and Naruto's internal whining.
ScorpioRat
Part of the reason why I like Shino in this fic is the role he plays. The author could have taken the easy way out and made him the "extra" member of Team 8, since Naruto and Hinata are the main couple, and Kurenai has her own backstory. But the author gave him an interesting personality, character development, and interesting interactions with Naruto and Hinata that bring out his personality, which arguably makes him one of the best characters in this fic.
Valiona
You'd think the Hokage would you know, assign a personal doctor for Naruto it the regular ones keep trying to murder him.

That whole awkward discussion at Ichiraku about the missions involving dead people was a nice touch. It was a mature moment with no character bashing in sight. And yay, they didn't make Haku a girl, and he got his revenge for Zabuza!
ScorpioRat
The thing about Team 7 is that they seem to have a lot of bad things happen to them, and the narrative tells us that most of it is their fault. By contrast, while Team 8 isn't exactly fortunate, they aren't necessarily blamed for their troubles, or forced to see it as a necessary lesson for working on their flaws.
Valiona
That's an interesting difference you pointed out there. It's funny how Naruto and Hinata can angst until the cows come home, but Sasuke's whole family is dead (and killed by his evil brother right in front of him, no less) but gets no author sympathy despite the fact that a ton of his characters flaws might stem from trauma.
ScorpioRat
yeah i agree with the above points on how Naruto and hinata can angst on their problems and that's fine.

While Sasuke who while yes can be accused of dwelling too much on his obession with revenge and ignoring how the village treat's him like he wa sa god, you can't expect a twelve year old to just move on form a very tramatic expereince that would influence anyone of any age.

And that while his flaws do come from the trauma, it's understandable considering what his brother put him through.

Not to mentio how a lot of fans seem to forget how itachi is the one who screwed him up and yet get's treated like he's some wise and lovely person despite his actions being somewhat stupid and selfish.

of course the problem there for quite a few fans and myself overall lie's in i feel kishimoto's favourtism of the uchidia's which leads them to being uninteionally umsympathetic which is something the can be levied at a few character's in Naruto like i.e Nageto (which comes from his backstory being weakly told).

but enough on that, always love lee's drunken aspects, always hilarious to read or watch. Yeah i loved how Shino owned his elder's and that his clan aren't all in harony with each toher, add's tension and dimension to them which is always welcome.

as always you make great points in your reviews, not sure if you ever have watched Code geass, but if you have you should do a liveblog for dthe code geass fic dauntless, that would be quite interesting to see, since that fic being analised by you would be a joy to read and discuss int he comments section.
romancechina88
I remember Misato being one of my favorite O Cs in this fanfiction. And I completely forgot the omakes! It's a little weird that the same people who wrote them were okay with how Team 8 handles Team 7's characterization. When I curiously scanned some of the reviews, they were all positive. I never managed to find on with serious criticism in it.
ScorpioRat
The lack of serious criticism is actually not a problem limited to Team 8. For most fairly well-known fics, you'll see the following:

-The vast majority of reviews are one-liners, saying "This is awesome! Please update it!" -A slightly smaller percent are longer reviews, gushing over the fic. -A few reviews are mostly positive, but offer criticism of one part. -A small portion of reviews will offer brief criticism of one part of the fic, or a brief "this sucks" message. -Reviews that actually offer meaningful criticism are fairly rare.
Valiona
Boy, is that true... These type of fanfictions start to make me feel genuinely bad for Sakura, even though I'm usually kind of apathetic to her.
ScorpioRat
another fab review, you make valid points as always.

Definitley agree on the sakura front, yes she was a jerkass at times when she had the long hair, some of her porblesm with naruto are on naruto's part as well with his behiaviour and constant hitting on her playing some part in how she act's towards him. Not that it excuses her behaivour which sasuke righty calle dher out on when she dissed naruto having no parents.

but just berating her and putting her through shit isn't character development, especilly if it's just angst, the trope called for that is deus angst machina, which the writer will just pile on angst on a character instead of developing them.

Same with the hyuga clan here, putting them through revenge an humiltation isn't good development, it becomes quite tiring to read about after a little while.

Definitley agree on shino's mum, a good exmaple of how to do oc's right, funny, interesting and add's something to the scene's she is in. but doesn't dominate it at the expense of canon characters.

yeah reviews are often just what you said above, a shame since it doesn't tell the auhtor what they are getting right, wrong, where improvement could be had etc, the silent majority comes into mind here.

Nice work as always, looking foreward to future chapters.
romancechina88
ah yes orochimaru enters, the moment i felt the series grew the beard in terms of plot and how things developed. Especially how he was introducted as the grass genin, always remember the moment he appears behind anko after she got behind naruto. Estabish's how creepy he is, his love of messing wiht people and where anko got some of her personality from being his apprentice.

Plus it gave her the hint that he was around as well, a scene that worked on quite a few levels.

I agree on team 8 getting involved with team 7 here since it took away one of sasuke's best moments i felt when sakura called him out on his cowardice and he got to show his skills, along with a moment that i felt is still sakura's best moment in the series, the moment she started to grow as a character, symbolized perfectly by her cutting her own hair, and claming sasuke down. Stations of canon again isn't it.

I'm a bit annoyed dosu got killed, he was an interesting character i felt, catching on to how Orochimaru set his team up to pretty much die, he could have been a wild card in the exams, but got killed off to show gaara's power, naruto has always felt at times of having some potential interesting stuff never happen.

Anko being another i feel as well, why set up her character like that and not follow through. Shame but sometimes these things happen, especially in any series that has a load of characters.

Yeah i hope the fox is done better, thought the recent development of him was interesting in a way, but contradicted what had been seen of him throughout the series, gain another example of how kishimoto changes his plans on characters at times, course he couldn't plan everything out years before, but sometimes it is very noticeable how he doesn't plan thing ahead enough.

looking foreward to more reviews.
romancechina88
Sakura got the short end of this chapter, that's for sure. And Sasuke's curse seal is just a power boost now instead of a bad influence too?

I'm fine with the Nine-tails being pragmatic, because at least that means he's intelligent enough to work with Naruto when it benefits himself. He can learn to be nicer later with character development if he needs to, but in canon, he only originally helped out because his chakra can weaken the seal in large bursts.
ScorpioRat
Dosu showed a fair amount of insight about Orochimaru's motive, but he also wasn't very lucky, getting to the furthest possible point away from Sasuke, and the point at which he and Sasuke would need to defeat all other opponents in order to face each other(and Sasuke has the most difficult opponents in his half of the brackets).

Of course, Dosu does get to do more in canon than here, where he doesn't even learn anything about Orochimaru before he's killed by Sasuke.
Valiona
I'm more angry about what happens next chapter as a result of Hinata's match than her losing. But yeah, mixing up matches a little more would have been nice. It's good to see Choji shine for a bit.
ScorpioRat
So am I; you'll hear about it next installment.

Of course, part of my complaints were over *which* matches stayed the same. Sakura vs. Ino was a good one to keep the same, since they resolved their personal issues, and ended in a double KO. For Shikamaru, it wasn't that much of an issue that his opponents, in canon or in the fic, had little relevance to the plot. But Hinata got the same opponent and the same outcome in spite of everything that had gone differently, which is frustrating.
Valiona
  • slow clap*

I agree with that rant so much. I was so pissed at Kurenai for making that speech. And Hinata's complete lack of a spine is ridiculous. She's not learning from Naruto and getting stronger, she's just using him as an emotional crutch now.
ScorpioRat
That's a good distinction between the relationship between Naruto and Hinata in canon and their relationship with this fic. I suppose Hinata on the same team as Naruto, and thus being around him on a regular basis would have an impact on their relationship (for example, she'd quickly be forced to actually talk with him), but I don't think it would end up making her dependent on him, nor should it.
Valiona
yeah i have to admit, while i can understand to a certain extent kurenai's actions here, they were harsh and actually counter productive ina way, it was kinda like if you hate yourself why don't you just kill yourself kind of talk.

Plus it did overall seem to just overall show he horriblie the hyuga's are and how hinata's problems and flaws are of no cause of her own in ways.

I mean i suppose the auhtor was trying to play what he thought was something that canon underplayed, or decontruct what he saw was an abusive family thing, which while you could say has an element of truth to, thouhg the author does seem to not want to develop it beyond they are a bunch of horroblie people and from a reader's view i feel it's a shame somewhat.

Sometimes you just have say what's on your mind, of how you view something,

Good reviewing, hope you keep at it.
romancechina88
While it's almost impossible to show an abuser completely sympathetically, it's typically better to show them with some degree of realism, rather than making them into one-dimensional villains, which is what this fic seems to be doing.
Valiona
Considering Naruto has 2 dead parents, you'd think he'd sympathize. And I think Hiashi was more surprised that Neji was capable of learning the two Main Branch techniques with no outside help in canon. It was implied that Neji reverse engineered them just by seeing it done.
ScorpioRat
ah yes the naruto and neji fight, that fight to me is very ironic now considering the events in canon in the last year, with neji dying and naruto finding out about the six paths destiny stuff, I wodner if kishimoto thought back to the content in that fight when he wrote the above, the guy has an unfornatue bad habit of breaking his own aesops, though whether that's due to him or his editors or someone else who knows.

Yeah i found the whole bit with kurenai and jiraya stuff to be questionable, i mean yeah the guy is sexually harrsing women with his antic's of peeping on them and him writing those novels isn't everyon's cup of tea, but to somehow blame the sexism she gets (which i have been never seen in canon) on him writing them and say kakashi reading them, yeah that's a crap excuse for kurenai to take, if she wants to be taken seriously then maybe she should start respecting other's view's and not just critize everything that she fines wrong or offensive.

It feels like the author is making an issue out of something that wasn't a issue in universe, yeah i get it he doesn't like how women don't get to dominate the plot as much as men do in naruto.

But to bring up sexism in this way in universe. Not the place to i feel, and it actually can in a way make kurenai look like she's a straw feminist, which defeats the point of bringing up the issue in the first place.

yeah that remark by naruto was crossing over the line, espsecially since he knows how his father die.

yeah i found the whole naruto not taking the toad contact to not make any sense at all.

Remind me how did hayate survive here, i can't remember why he does, other than maybe the author liking him perhaps.

another fine review, keep it up
romancechina88
Scorpio Rat,

That's true, although if Neji's like Sasuke, he might make the suggestion that if Naruto never knew his parents, he doesn't know the pain of loss. Naruto doesn't have any excuse, though.

romancechina88,

Neji's Screw Destiny aesop was done with some caveats, as he concludes that one's efforts might not make a difference in the end, but those who try are the ones he considers strong. And I find Neji's sacrifice was not done for the sake of Hinata as the heiress, but presumably more as his cousin, and to save Naruto (the best hope the Alliance has of defeating Madara, Tobi and the Ten-Tails), which, in those regards, is similar to his father's canonical reasons for sacrificing himself.
Valiona
true that can be viewed that way, i'm just a bit cynical overall really, anything can be viewed in a certain way depending on how one's view are in life.

romancechina88
yeah i didn't get why if survelliance was high, then how did the invasion plan come into play.

Yes another canon moment twisted by the author to make the hyuga even worse, not good not good at all.

yeah i liked the iruka stuff in this fic, one of the reaosn i do like the fic is iruka's stuff in it, even if some of it is to make the hyuag suffer neednessly.

next few chapters the story starts to divere more from canon, especially what happens in chapter 20
romancechina88
I'm starting to wonder what the author has against the Hyuga in general...
ScorpioRat
I've noticed that when everything bad that's happened to a popular character can be laid at the feet of a character or group, they tend to lose favor in the fandom quite quickly. And so, because Hiashi can be blamed for Hinata's problems, he gets the brunt of her fans' ire and is demonized, even when it goes beyond what is reasonable.
Valiona
I think the author just took his nail too far here. What kind of event could possibly change a whole clan's attitude so fast?
ScorpioRat
Yeah, I don't think the old man would have promoted Naruto if he survived in canon either. He beat Neji, but there was more brute force and sheer tenacity involved than deep strategic though. Naruto hadn't yet gained enough respect to be an effective leader on a field. I do think he should have been promoted sometime before the war in Shippuden though.
ScorpioRat
While I agree that the lack of casualties during this fic's Sand-Sound invasion was strange, I think the author's intent was to show the greater intellect and pragmatism Naruto and his team had in comparison to canon, and having a number of casualties on par with canon would mitigate that.

Of course, I think doing something like that is stupid in the first place, so that doesn't really change my opinion of it at all.
MFM
Scorpio Rat,

I agree that Naruto could use a promotion, but wonder if all Chunins have to go through the typical steps. Perhaps they want to see how much of a leader he is, first, not just how powerful he is.

MFM,

Perhaps that's true, but it doesn't seem entirely due to Naruto's actions if the greater surveillance kept Hayate alive, and Naruto had no direct impact on the battle btween the Third Hokage and Orochimaru.
Valiona
Here's a little known fact. A ninja can be straight up appointed to Chunin and Jounin anytime teh Hokage wishes. So there really was no excuse to keep Naruto a genin for that long.
ScorpioRat
this was quite the wham chapter, kurenai dying, in some ways good as it can show anyone can die, but not good as it killed her off in a way too soon.

Personally i have never found itachi to be an interesting character, a boring one really due to him being a not good verison of stoic character, creepy yes but not interesting enough. Plus when he turned up the plot started to let itself become dominated by sasuke's clan which wasn't good since i felt it wasn't interesting really but to each his own on that.

that and he was overpowered made him boring to watch in fights, sasuke and kakashi mixed things up so they weren't completley reliant on the shaningan along wihtt he fact they had to earn their victories, itachi doesn't feel like he earns his really for me.

The problem i have with itachi's character overall is how he was handled in part two, the idea for him having done what he did was decent and should have made him more feshed out, the excution was very flawed i feel, since it wasn't really built up (some of the asspull powers for him and sasuke as well), too many rectons that strech belief, and some of the shilling he got later on, some of it was just plain facepalming for me, considering how dumb some of his actions were and damaging as well.

i know he has expressed regret, but sometimes it feels more like he is being humble to recieve praise and avoid resally anyone critizing how he handled things. But agian ymmv on that front, it's an issue many people have strong views on

His first appereance in part one for me tainted my opinion of him due to his mind rape of kakashi, which led to sasuke visiting him in bed, which led to that idiot aiba coming in and pretty much litting the fuse for shit to happen.

then itachi mind rapes sasuke again (there is no way to defend that, no logic for me to defend such an action, no matter what the intentions, mind raping someone is one of acts in my view is immoral in nearly everyway).for me Itachi lost any sympathy he could have got from those act's along, too tainted by his first characterizaiton to make the recton work enough for me.

Plus he made all of naruto's efforts in part two to bring sasuke back to the village pointless, it felt like a middle finger to the main character and that is just plain wrong in my book, though some of the reaosns are understandable considering sasuke listens to (which is always only someone from his clan).

Again the idea was decent, excution of it left a lot to be desired.

enough on that issue.

Yeah i didn't like the bashing again of team seven, not needed.

the mary sue test has it's merits and flaws, but kurenai i feel does ffall into it in this fic, has flaws but they aren't really brought up and she wins her arugments too easily, you cold say she is a black hole sue who bends everything to her will and views.

nice rreview once again, good points made and interesting to read as always.

romancechina88
What flaws are you thinking about for the Mary Sue Litmus Test, exactly?

The test isn't perfect, but it also establishes how likely characters are to be Mary Sues, rather than definitively determining whether they are. For example, I took the test for a character in a fic that's been deleted, and he only got a 13, in spite of a fairly blatant showing of Gary Stu-ness by defeating many opponents at once, even when doing so is implausible.

It's also a good look at some of the factors that make a Mary Sue, especially in making the distinction that the factors have to be implausible for the story.
Valiona
true that is true. but sometimes i feel that people use it to either convince themsleves their character isn't suelish, or it convinces them they are when they aren't.

Mary sue has become a term that is greatly misused to describe a character who really a reader doesn't like at times, though doesn't mean the temr can't apply to some character's. it just feels it has been transformed into something that is so far away from what it was suppose to mean.

used the test myself ocne for an oc, and some of the traits there i'm not so sure are sueish really, think it just depends on how a writer uses some of the traits etc on the character and how it fit's in the universe in question.

That's just my view. the mary sue test item has it's use but also it's limits as well in my view.
romancechina88
I assume the author wanted to get the Tsunade arc out of the way ASAP, to prevent running into The Stations of the Canon too much. However, there were definitely better ways to do it.
MFM
That's a possibility. Then again, The Stations of the Canon didn't bother the author much in the past, especially as far as the Chunin Exams went.
Valiona
Was fun to read your thoughts on all of it. I admittedly only read the fic once, up to where it was updated a few years ago (IIRC, right at the end of the Chunin exams) and had heard many of the later developments (mainly Kurenai's death), but I never did catch up on it. I remember being mixed but generally positive on it, and my thoughts have changed some overall, but I do mostly agree with what you liked and disliked.

I also agree with your policy on maintaining a schedule when writing things like fanfics, though I should probably practice what I preach, since I generally lose interest in anything I write after a mere 2-3 chapters.
MFM
It's good to hear you liked it. I also kept that in mind when doing this liveblog, intending to finish what I started.
Valiona
well done finishing the blog so far.

some good points were made again, and the flaws i agree with some of them.

some of the scheule slip probabaly can be put down to the autor doing different fic's a professional novel and other matters. Annoying yes but as someone who has done fanfic writing myself understandable, consdering how it is done in one's own freetime, with no pay, quite a lot of effort at times, and the likihood of getting little to no attention or a lot of abuse.

keeping up motivation to do fanfic writing can be very diffcult at times, which i'm sure you have felt yourself.

but yes your views on it are valid. Seems like the most popluar fic's are the oens who take ages to update usually,

hope you plan to do more liveblogs of fic's, as i have commented before if you have watched code geass, then a liveblog on dauntless or megiddo would be great to see, since those two fic's are quite popluar and play about with canon in their own ways.

Can't think of other naruto fic's to review, sicne most don't interest me due to time travel which i hate, always feels like a lazy plot device to me. petpeeve all the way.
romancechina88
Awesome job of you for finishing this in one go like that.

IF you ever want to live blog another interestingly done AU Naruto fanfiction, I remember The Demon in the Hyuga Clan grabbing my attention. It's a long one though, stretching deep into Shippuden. And the author ended it with an outline for the rest of the plot since they couldn't finish it.
ScorpioRat
romancechina,

I liveblogged Boys Und Sensha-do, a Girls und Panzer fic in which boys are added to the all female sport of tankery.

Scorpio Rat,

I'll take a look into that fic; thanks for mentioning it.

However, I'm not sure if I'll ever liveblog it or the two romancechina88 mentioned, since it, as you say, is quite long (435,951 words, vs. Team 8's 255,693, and Boys und Sensha-do's 66,993). If I decide to liveblog another fanfic, it might be shorter than Team 8.

One thing the two fics I have liveblogged have in common is various points that set me off to a certain degree. For Team 8, it was primarily Chapter 15, as well as to a lesser extent, Chapter 14 and a few other points. For Boys und Sensha-do, it's Chapter 7, when Akio, the main OC, takes an unfairly harsh and ignorantly judgmental stance on Maho, my favorite Girls und Panzer character. In any case, any fic I choose to liveblog in the future will not only probably be somewhat shorter, but also have a few moments that provoke a similar reaction from me.

Thank you for your interest, readership and comments.
Valiona
I very much enjoyed this liveblog. You really have a nice style for expressing criticisms and positive's.
32ndfreeze
The long gaps between updates are because the author is alternating focus between this and their other active work: Harry Potter: Nightmares of Futures Past.
ChaosKnux
32ndfreeze,

I'm glad to hear that. At times, I wondered whether I was too hard on the fic.

Chaos Knux,

I realize that he's also been working on HP:NOFP, but that doesn't quite account for the more recent- and longer- delays. Team 8 has not been updated since September 6 of 2013, but HP:NOFP has not been updated for even longer, since October 19, 2012. Since he doesn't seem to be working on the latter at the moment, it makes me wonder if something is going on, for there to be gaps this long (typically, schedule slips like this don't happen without outside circumstances or lack of interest).
Valiona
Have been reading through your posts in effectively a single sitting, and while I don't agree with everything you say, and at times I think you're being quite strict and harsh, you still make it clear at the end that you don't hate this story by any means, and that there's plenty you still enjoy and appreciate about it. And for me, what's most important about ANY type of fan fiction is that both the audience and the writer are enjoying themselves. Not one. Not the other. Both. Maybe that's just unique to me, but that's how I feel. And while I do not know to what extent that the author of this particular story is having fun, I just hope it's as much fun as I've had. It's got it flaws, and not even some ones you brought up, but isn't when you can take something you enjoy, acknowledge its faults, and then either in spite of or in some cases even because of them say "You know what? I still love it anyway!" that you can yourself a true fan? That's my belief.

In the end, I acknowledge that as someone who's grown to have some personal grievances with the source material, especially with Shippuden, finding Team 8 about 2.5 years ago was like a breath of fresh air. Combined with its solid writing and that it proved to me some of the capabilities of fan fiction, I admit that I have a bias towards this story. After all, until last summer when I found Naruto: Demon's Path by Scribe of the Apocalypse, I viewed it as my all-time favorite Naruto story and one of the most well-written pieces of fan fiction that I had ever had the pleasure of reading. But while I don't agree with some of what you say, I can still respect your opinion.
LinkSeasonMaster
Link Season Master,

Just wondering, but what parts don't you agree with me on, and what do you think I'm "quite strict and harsh about?"

I agree that the author and the readers enjoying the story is important, and, all in all, I found it fairly enjoyable to do this liveblog.
Valiona
I was surprised when I woke up this morning to find team eight had been updated.

This was an interesting chapter for the most part, though like you some things did bug me like most of the above you mentioned.

Like the more shrilling of Kurenai, the negative bit on Ino, though where the line is between it being Shino's view or the Author's is one I'm not sure of.

Naruto convincing the fox a bit too easy I feel.

did like how Jiraya pointed out the canon three year skip, where Naruto seemed to not learn much from as most of his power ups came afterwards, which made the whole skip feel a bit pointless apart to age the characters and to give the anime time to not get ahead of it.

Hope much this will be updated is anyone's guess, but I still do like it as it is written well and has a lot of depth to it that few fic's have.

Off question now what did you think of the ending to Naruto. I'm not surprised where it went, I was just apathetic to it all after the long war arc and the quality of it dipping to at times bad levels, namely excusing Obito and Madera's actions way to easily and the whole black zetus plot twist being,, well it was just a real deflating moment for naruto for me personally.

But I digress, nice to see your latest review for this chapter, also I'm still around after going quiet for a while due to work life and many games lie Da Inquisition taking up my free time. As well as planning a trip to japan next month and seeing about getting that Code Geass Project I had in mind up and running again after regaining passion to do it.

Romancechina88
romancechina88
romancechina88,

Early on in the fic, the author had Kurenai, his personal mouthpiece, consider Ino "an incredible shrew, which would seem to indicate that it's not just Shino.

Over the timeskip in canon, Naruto didn't necessarily learn many new jutsus, but he became able to use the ones he had more effectively, and had subtler increases in his overall effectiveness as a fighter. Too many viewers seem to equate strength with the number of jutsus one has.

I enjoyed the ending, and don't believe that the quality dropped as many say, although I believe the Pain arc is still the best part of the series. I wouldn't say that Obito and Madara's actions were "excused", especially since the former says that he deserves to die alone.
Valiona
True kurenai had always been his mouthpiece.

The bit above the timeskip is also true, though the plot seemed to give Naruto and Sasuke powers up too much I felt towards the end.

The pain arc is where I felt the series should have ended, as that's where the stakes were at the highest and after that Kihsimoto had to to himself to get the same amount of tension, plus it was at that point I felt Kihsimoto started getting trifle with the backstories for the villains, it felt more like he was trying too hard to make them sympathetic while forgetting why they were villains.

The big problem with Obito I feel and some other people do is that in the end it felt like he got everything he wanted despite all of the actions he did throughout the series (not to mention some of Naruto's words about him being very questionable), and Madera gets really I feel an underserved send off despite his actions as well.

It really just depends on how sympathetic you find the Uchiha's as a whole, I feel they aren't considering how selfish their actions tend to be and how other characters always seem to defend them too much and not really called them out where they should be at times.

It just feels to me that the series has a bias for the Uchiha. They aren't held to the same treatment as other characters are I feel. To each his own on that.

If you enjoyed the ending then that is completely fine and I'm glad you and those who do did enjoyed it.
romancechina88
romancechina88,

I suppose it really does come down to how you feel about the Uchihas. They were always set up as a very important part of the story, and I was more favorable toward them than most people. They're not my favorite characters, but I tend to see the intensity of the hate some people have toward them as excessive.

The same goes with making characters sympathetic. It's always something of a balancing act to show humanizing traits for a villain in spite of their misdeeds, and while some disagree, I believe Kishimoto did this well for the most part.

All in all, the ending is one that the series was going toward, and fit it nicely. I think part of the reason I enjoyed it was because I believed it would end like this, and had enjoyed the series thus far. I can understand that some people don't like the ending, and they're entitled to their opinions, but at the same time, I can't help but feel as though the endings that they were hoping for were ones that Kishimoto most likely never would have written.
Valiona
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