History YMMV / TheWestWing

7th Mar '17 3:58:21 PM CumbersomeTercel
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** "Issac and Ishmael" was written as a preemption of the Season 3 premiere after the September 11th attacks, and opens with the cast members explaining that it's a "storytelling aberration" that doesn't fit into the show's timeline.
** "Ninety Miles Away" largely splits off from the long-running election storyline in favor of an apologia about how America should have been friends with Fidel Castro this whole time, complete with a ridiculous shot of him waiting for Leo in the shadows like a James Bond villain.

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** "Issac and Ishmael" "[[{{Recap/TheWestWingS03E01IsaacAndIshmael}} Isaac And Ishmael]]" was written as a preemption of the Season 3 premiere after the September 11th attacks, and opens with the cast members explaining that it's a "storytelling aberration" that doesn't fit into the show's timeline.
** "Ninety "[[{{Recap/TheWestWingS06E19NinetyMilesAway}} Ninety Miles Away" Away]]" largely splits off from the long-running election storyline in favor of an apologia about how America should have been friends with Fidel Castro UsefulNotes/FidelCastro this whole time, complete with a ridiculous shot of him waiting for Leo in the shadows like a James Bond Franchise/JamesBond villain.



** In the Season 2 episode "Galileo", Bartlet is going to a concert by the Reykjavik Symphony and he has Charlie read out the programme: Samuel Barber's Symphony No 2, Stravinsky's "Variations on a Theme" and Arnold Schoenberg's "Enlightened Night" for string orchestra, which Bartlet says "totally blows". The Barber piece is a real piece; Stravinsky did write a set of Variations, but it doesn't have that exact title. Schoenberg's 1899 "Verklärte Nacht" exists in two versions, the original sextet and a version for string orchestra. However, its title translates not as "Enlightened Night" (which would be "Aufklärte Nacht") but "Transfigured Night", and although it's by Schoenberg there's very little in it that a supposed hater of modern music could dislike. It certainly isn't (as he later puts it) "an atonal nightmare of pretention", being squarely in the key of D minor.

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** In the Season 2 episode "Galileo", "[[{{Recap/TheWestWingS02E09Galileo}} Galileo]]", Bartlet is going to a concert by the Reykjavik Symphony and he has Charlie read out the programme: Samuel Barber's Symphony No 2, Stravinsky's "Variations on a Theme" and Arnold Schoenberg's "Enlightened Night" for string orchestra, which Bartlet says "totally blows". The Barber piece is a real piece; Stravinsky did write a set of Variations, but it doesn't have that exact title. Schoenberg's 1899 "Verklärte Nacht" exists in two versions, the original sextet and a version for string orchestra. However, its title translates not as "Enlightened Night" (which would be "Aufklärte Nacht") but "Transfigured Night", and although it's by Schoenberg there's very little in it that a supposed hater of modern music could dislike. It certainly isn't (as he later puts it) "an atonal nightmare of pretention", being squarely in the key of D minor.



*** It's worth noting in 2008 that Barack Obama won North Carolina by less than half a percent, and lost Georgia by a ratio of only 52-47. He still got blown out in South Carolina, but this isn't completely insane.

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*** It's worth noting in 2008 that Barack Obama UsefulNotes/BarackObama won North Carolina by less than half a percent, and lost Georgia by a ratio of only 52-47. He still got blown out in South Carolina, but this isn't completely insane.



** In Season 2's fifth episode "And It's Surely To His Credit", there is a subplot involving Josh's health insurance refusing to pay more than 20% of the hospital's bill for his inpatient stay after being shot in the Season 1 finale. The grounds were that it was an out-of-network hospital and that Josh had failed to get authorization for the admission prior to actually being admitted. Since Josh is a (fictional) federal employee living in the DC metro area, he would have had ten fee-for-service and PPO plans, seven [=HMOs=], and eight high-deductible and consumer-driven plans to choose from as his insurance through the Federal Employees' Health Benefits Program (FEHBP). Regardless of which of those plans he chose, Josh would not have been the party responsible to obtain authorization for the inpatient admission. Such admissions are authorized based on the clinical necessity of the care the patient requires, which can only be established by medical practitioners on behalf of the facility; regardless of the facility's participation status with the plan, the insurance carrier would not have expected or required that Josh be the one to call to request authorization. Furthermore, it is a standard for admissions through the emergency department that the admitting facility has approximately 48 hours '''after''' the admission takes place to contact the insurance plan and obtain authorization. This is because most insurance plans' medical review departments (the areas that take in and review authorization requests) are not open 24/7 and the facility may not have all of the necessary documentation to prove the clinical necessity of the predicted length of the patient's stay until at least a day after the original admission through the ER.

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** In Season 2's fifth episode "And "[[{{Recap/TheWestWingS02E05AndItsSurelyToTheirCredit}} And It's Surely To His Credit", Their Credit]]", there is a subplot involving Josh's health insurance refusing to pay more than 20% of the hospital's bill for his inpatient stay after being shot in the Season 1 finale. The grounds were that it was an out-of-network hospital and that Josh had failed to get authorization for the admission prior to actually being admitted. Since Josh is a (fictional) federal employee living in the DC metro area, he would have had ten fee-for-service and PPO plans, seven [=HMOs=], and eight high-deductible and consumer-driven plans to choose from as his insurance through the Federal Employees' Health Benefits Program (FEHBP). Regardless of which of those plans he chose, Josh would not have been the party responsible to obtain authorization for the inpatient admission. Such admissions are authorized based on the clinical necessity of the care the patient requires, which can only be established by medical practitioners on behalf of the facility; regardless of the facility's participation status with the plan, the insurance carrier would not have expected or required that Josh be the one to call to request authorization. Furthermore, it is a standard for admissions through the emergency department that the admitting facility has approximately 48 hours '''after''' the admission takes place to contact the insurance plan and obtain authorization. This is because most insurance plans' medical review departments (the areas that take in and review authorization requests) are not open 24/7 and the facility may not have all of the necessary documentation to prove the clinical necessity of the predicted length of the patient's stay until at least a day after the original admission through the ER.



** In "Isaac and Ishmael", Sam says "Not only do terrorists always fail at what they're after, they pretty much always succeed in strengthening whatever it is they're against." He goes on to list a number of failed terrorist organisations. He fails, however, to mention [[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Umkhonto_we_Sizwe Umkhonto we Sizwe]], the military wing of the African National Congress, which undoubtedly used tactics against the apartheid regime in South Africa which would normally be considered terrorism, including the bombing of civilian targets.[[note]]The US government classified Umkhonto we Sizwe as a terrorist organisation, which Sam should have known.[[/note]] What happened in South Africa? The African National Congress achieved its aims: apartheid collapsed and white rule of the country along with it, and Umkhonto we Sizwe ended up being incorporated into the South African military. Only a racist would say that the collapse of apartheid was a bad thing, but the fact is that terrorists do not always fail, and they certainly do not always strengthen the things they're against.[[note]] Sam's argument that terrorism always fails is very much a No True Scotsman argument, in that he claims that every counter-example anyone brings up is not an example of successful terrorism. One kid mentions the IRA, and Sam says "The Brits are still there. The Protestants are still there." The Provisional IRA did not want to expel all Protestants from Northern Ireland; it wanted to end Protestant domination of Northern Ireland's government. It did aim to create a united Ireland, but it came to accept that it would be wrong to go on demanding one if a majority of people in Northern Ireland didn't want one, which is why it settled for power-sharing. And there is no doubt that the UK government's decades-long policy of not negotiating with terrorists proved to be useless in dealing with the IRA; as long as Westminster refused to negotiate, the violence continued, and when they finally started to negotiate and real changes were made to the government in Northern Ireland, the Provisional IRA called a ceasefire and eventually ended its armed campaign. This is an especially amusing example of a CRF since the necessity of negotiating with the IRA was actually recognised in The West Wing Episode "Dead Irish Writers", in which Lord John Marbury privately admits to Toby that the British government needs the US government to talk to Sinn Fein politican Brendan [=McGann=], which is a reference to how the Clinton administration helped to normalise relations between Sinn Fein and the UK government by granting Sinn Fein's president Gerry Adams a US visa, by President Clinton's repeated visits to Britain and Ireland, and by the appointment of former US Senator George Mitchell as the US's Special Envoy for Northern Ireland.[[/note]]

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** In "Isaac and Ishmael", "[[{{Recap/TheWestWingS03E01IsaacAndIshmael}} Isaac And Ishmael]]", Sam says "Not only do terrorists always fail at what they're after, they pretty much always succeed in strengthening whatever it is they're against." He goes on to list a number of failed terrorist organisations. He fails, however, to mention [[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Umkhonto_we_Sizwe Umkhonto we Sizwe]], the military wing of the African National Congress, which undoubtedly used tactics against the apartheid regime in South Africa which would normally be considered terrorism, including the bombing of civilian targets.[[note]]The US government classified Umkhonto we Sizwe as a terrorist organisation, which Sam should have known.[[/note]] What happened in South Africa? The African National Congress achieved its aims: apartheid collapsed and white rule of the country along with it, and Umkhonto we Sizwe ended up being incorporated into the South African military. Only a racist would say that the collapse of apartheid was a bad thing, but the fact is that terrorists do not always fail, and they certainly do not always strengthen the things they're against.[[note]] Sam's argument that terrorism always fails is very much a No True Scotsman argument, in that he claims that every counter-example anyone brings up is not an example of successful terrorism. One kid mentions the IRA, and Sam says "The Brits are still there. The Protestants are still there." The Provisional IRA did not want to expel all Protestants from Northern Ireland; it wanted to end Protestant domination of Northern Ireland's government. It did aim to create a united Ireland, but it came to accept that it would be wrong to go on demanding one if a majority of people in Northern Ireland didn't want one, which is why it settled for power-sharing. And there is no doubt that the UK government's decades-long policy of not negotiating with terrorists proved to be useless in dealing with the IRA; as long as Westminster refused to negotiate, the violence continued, and when they finally started to negotiate and real changes were made to the government in Northern Ireland, the Provisional IRA called a ceasefire and eventually ended its armed campaign. This is an especially amusing example of a CRF since the necessity of negotiating with the IRA was actually recognised in The West Wing Episode "Dead Irish Writers", in which Lord John Marbury privately admits to Toby that the British government needs the US government to talk to Sinn Fein politican Brendan [=McGann=], which is a reference to how the Clinton administration helped to normalise relations between Sinn Fein and the UK government by granting Sinn Fein's president Gerry Adams a US visa, by President Clinton's repeated visits to Britain and Ireland, and by the appointment of former US Senator George Mitchell as the US's Special Envoy for Northern Ireland.[[/note]]



** At the end of the ColdOpen of the Season 1 episode "The Short List", a piece of the ceiling in Josh's office falls onto his desk (a maintenance crew was working upstairs) while Josh is sitting there, inches away from him. A little later, Josh tells Donna, "You should be nice to me. I could be dead, you know." Donna's reply? "I don't have that kind of luck." Of course, it cuts both ways; earlier in the scene, Josh, amazed the ceiling just missed him, says to Donna, "I really think if big chunks of ceiling are gonna fall on anyone...I don't know...it should be you."

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** At the end of the ColdOpen of the Season 1 episode "The "[[{{Recap/TheWestWingS01E09TheShortList}} The Short List", List]]", a piece of the ceiling in Josh's office falls onto his desk (a maintenance crew was working upstairs) while Josh is sitting there, inches away from him. A little later, Josh tells Donna, "You should be nice to me. I could be dead, you know." Donna's reply? "I don't have that kind of luck." Of course, it cuts both ways; earlier in the scene, Josh, amazed the ceiling just missed him, says to Donna, "I really think if big chunks of ceiling are gonna fall on anyone...I don't know...it should be you."



** In the season finale of Season 1, the space shuttle Columbia has a problem wherein on of its bay doors fails to close. Three years later, a similar problem with insulation damage to the wing caused the destruction of the real life Columbia, resulting in the deaths of all seven crew.

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** In the season finale of Season 1, 1 "[[{{Recap/TheWestWingS01E22WhatKindOfDayHasItBeen}} What Kind Of Day Has It Been?]]", the space shuttle Columbia has a problem wherein on of its bay doors fails to close. Three years later, a similar problem with insulation damage to the wing caused the destruction of the real life Columbia, resulting in the deaths of all seven crew.



** In the Season 4 premier, Leo and Fitz are discussing the assassination of Abdul ibn Shareef, which was carried out by the U.S. Fitz explains, "These were Navy [=SEALs=]. These were Special Ops. They know what they're doing."
** Donald Rumsfeld's mentioned in "The Short List" as one of the great White House staffers (he served in Nixon and Ford's administrations), admittedly by a Republican character. Doubtful whether he'd receive the same praise a decade later, after his controversial tenure as Defense Secretary.

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** In the Season 4 premier, premier "[[{{Recap/TheWestWingS04E01TwentyHoursInAmericaPartOne}} 20 Hours In America, Part 1]]", Leo and Fitz are discussing the assassination of Abdul ibn Shareef, which was carried out by the U.S. Fitz explains, "These were Navy [=SEALs=]. These were Special Ops. They know what they're doing."
** Donald Rumsfeld's UsefulNotes/DonaldRumsfeld's mentioned in "The " [[{{Recap/TheWestWingS01E09TheShortList}} The Short List" List]]" as one of the great White House staffers (he served in Nixon and Ford's administrations), admittedly by a Republican character. Doubtful whether he'd receive the same praise a decade later, after his controversial tenure as Defense Secretary.



** Probably the Most Triumphant Example in the series: Leo has a heart attack in season six shortly after an argument with Bartlet. It's shown in ''excruciating'' detail. In season seven, both the character ''and the actor'' would die of a heart attack.

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** Probably the Most Triumphant Example MostTriumphantExample in the series: Leo has a heart attack in season six shortly after an argument with Bartlet. It's shown in ''excruciating'' detail. In season seven, both the character ''and the actor'' would die of a heart attack.



** In the first-season episode "Mr Willis of Ohio," Zoey Bartlet has a somewhat uncomfortable experience in a bar when a couple of guys hit on her; she gets rescued by the rest of the cast and, ultimately, some Secret Service agents. When she gets back to the White House, her father goes into elaborate detail about how if anything happened to her, it would essentially bring the government to its knees, as "we wouldn't have a commander in chief anymore; we'd have a father who's out of his mind because his little girl is trapped somewhere in Uganda with a gun to her head." Seems over the top, right? Not after the end of Season 4, when Zoey's FrenchJerk boyfriend slips ecstasy into her drink and she ends up being kidnapped, and her father finds he cannot think and act rationally in the situation and invokes the 25th Amendment, temporarily handing over power to the Republican Speaker of the House.

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** In the first-season episode "Mr "[[{{Recap/TheWestWingS01E06MrWillisOfOhio}} Mr. Willis of Ohio," Of Ohio]]", Zoey Bartlet has a somewhat uncomfortable experience in a bar when a couple of guys hit on her; she gets rescued by the rest of the cast and, ultimately, some Secret Service agents. When she gets back to the White House, her father goes into elaborate detail about how if anything happened to her, it would essentially bring the government to its knees, as "we wouldn't have a commander in chief anymore; we'd have a father who's out of his mind because his little girl is trapped somewhere in Uganda with a gun to her head." Seems over the top, right? Not after the end of Season 4, when Zoey's FrenchJerk boyfriend slips ecstasy into her drink and she ends up being kidnapped, and her father finds he cannot think and act rationally in the situation and invokes the 25th Amendment, temporarily handing over power to the Republican Speaker of the House.



** In "In God We Trust" (made in 2005), a mini-crisis emerges after Democrats in Congress attach a minimum wage rider to the bill to raise the debt ceiling that Republicans won't pass, threatening to default the United States. Senator Vinick, a Republican, confronts Bartlet about Democrats "playing games" with the debt ceiling. Flash forward to 2011 and 2013, and arguments about Congress raising the debt ceiling suddenly become a lot more relevant -- only this time, it's the Republicans who are "playing games" with the debt ceiling.
** Any of Sam's political gaffes are pretty hard to watch after Rob Lowe's callous joking about the November 2015 terrorist attacks in Paris, and then refusing to apologize for them.

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** In "In "[[{{Recap/TheWestWingS06E20InGodWeTrust}} In God We Trust" Trust]]" (made in 2005), a mini-crisis emerges after Democrats in Congress attach a minimum wage rider to the bill to raise the debt ceiling that Republicans won't pass, threatening to default the United States. Senator Vinick, a Republican, confronts Bartlet about Democrats "playing games" with the debt ceiling. Flash forward to 2011 and 2013, and arguments about Congress raising the debt ceiling suddenly become a lot more relevant -- only this time, it's the Republicans who are "playing games" with the debt ceiling.
** Any of Sam's political gaffes are pretty hard to watch after Rob Lowe's Creator/RobLowe's callous joking about the November 2015 terrorist attacks in Paris, and then refusing to apologize for them.



* HilariousInHindsight: In the Season 5 episode "The Stormy Present," James Cromwell has a guest role as former President of the United States D. Wire Newman (casually called '''D.W.'''), a loose FictionalCounterpart to UsefulNotes/JimmyCarter. Cromwell would later go on to play RealLife former president [[UsefulNotes/GeorgeHWBush George]] '''[[UsefulNotes/GeorgeHWBush H.W.]]''' [[UsefulNotes/GeorgeHWBush Bush]] in the 2008 UsefulNotes/GeorgeWBush biopic ''Film/{{W}}''.
** The race between Santos and Vinick has some quite eerie similarities to the 2008 presidential election, with an young and idealistic minority Democrat beating an elderly, moderate-leaning Republican. The parallels just get weirder from there: the Democratic candidate chooses a much older Washington insider as his running mate (Joe Biden vs. Leo [=McGarry=]) while the Republican candidate's running mate is the much younger Governor of a sparsely populated US state known for its rich mineral resources (Ray Sullivan of West Virginia vs. Sarah Palin of Alaska), and the Democratic candidate decides to appoint one of his foremost political rivals Secretary of State (Arnold Vinick vs. Hilary Clinton).
** In the aforementioned episode "Stirred," the senior staff floats the idea of replacing Hoynes with Leo as Bartlet's running mate. In the final seasons of the show, Leo was the Vice-Presidential candidate for the Democratic party.

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* HilariousInHindsight: In the Season 5 episode "The "[[{{Recap/TheWestWingS05E10TheStormyPresent}} The Stormy Present," Present]]" James Cromwell has a guest role as former President of the United States D. Wire Newman (casually called '''D.W.'''), a loose FictionalCounterpart to UsefulNotes/JimmyCarter. Cromwell would later go on to play RealLife former president [[UsefulNotes/GeorgeHWBush George]] '''[[UsefulNotes/GeorgeHWBush H.W.]]''' [[UsefulNotes/GeorgeHWBush Bush]] in the 2008 UsefulNotes/GeorgeWBush biopic ''Film/{{W}}''.
** The race between Santos and Vinick has some quite eerie similarities to the 2008 presidential election, with an young and idealistic minority Democrat beating an elderly, moderate-leaning Republican. The parallels just get weirder from there: the Democratic candidate chooses a much older Washington insider as his running mate (Joe Biden vs. Leo [=McGarry=]) while the Republican candidate's running mate is the much younger Governor of a sparsely populated US state known for its rich mineral resources (Ray Sullivan of West Virginia vs. Sarah Palin UsefulNotes/SarahPalin of Alaska), and the Democratic candidate decides to appoint one of his foremost political rivals Secretary of State (Arnold Vinick vs. Hilary Clinton).
UsefulNotes/HilaryClinton).
** In the aforementioned episode "Stirred," "[[{{Recap/TheWestWingS03E18Stirred}} Stirred]]", the senior staff floats the idea of replacing Hoynes with Leo as Bartlet's running mate. In the final seasons of the show, Leo was the Vice-Presidential candidate for the Democratic party.



** Martin Sheen's pronounciation of the "hu" sound as "yu," after it became a popular way to mock Donald Trump.

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** Martin Sheen's pronounciation Creator/MartinSheen's pronunciation of the "hu" sound as "yu," after it became a popular way to mock Donald Trump.



** Often. For example, in the episode "18th and Potomac," Josh meets with two House Democrats holding up funds for the anti-Big Tobacco lawsuits. While the audience's sympathies are clearly supposed to be with Josh, the two congressmen make cogent arguments that the tobacco companies' actions, while sleazy, weren't actually criminal. Josh's response is to accuse them of not caring if smokers die or not.

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** Often. For example, in the episode "18th and Potomac," "[[{{Recap/TheWestWingS02E21EighteenthAndPotomac}} 18th And Potomac]]" Josh meets with two House Democrats holding up funds for the anti-Big Tobacco lawsuits. While the audience's sympathies are clearly supposed to be with Josh, the two congressmen make cogent arguments that the tobacco companies' actions, while sleazy, weren't actually criminal. Josh's response is to accuse them of not caring if smokers die or not.



** Speaker Haffley in "Shutdown". Bartlet decides to go to the Hill to work out an end to the shutdown, but decides halfway on the way to walk instead, in front of the press. Haffley, to the objection of a couple of his employees, decides to leave the President in the lobby so long that he walks back out. The scene after the commercial opens with political commentators on a TV lambasting the Speaker for making a colossal tactical error.

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** Speaker Haffley in "Shutdown"."[[{{Recap/TheWestWingS05E08Shutdown}} Shutdown]]". Bartlet decides to go to the Hill to work out an end to the shutdown, but decides halfway on the way to walk instead, in front of the press. Haffley, to the objection of a couple of his employees, decides to leave the President in the lobby so long that he walks back out. The scene after the commercial opens with political commentators on a TV lambasting the Speaker for making a colossal tactical error.



** Toby gets one in "The State Dinner". Let's face it, stubbornly and self-righteously insisting that a rather confrontational denunciation of Indonesia's human rights abuses be added into a toast for the Indonesian President at a state dinner ''in his honour'' is rather undiplomatic, however justified. But when you ''then'' have to ask a high-ranking Indonesian official -- who is unlikely to be very happy with said denunciation and is likely to know who included it -- to use his influence to get a friend of yours out of an Indonesian jail, it just looks stupid on top of that.

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** Toby gets one in "The "[[{{Recap/TheWestWingS01E07TheStateDinner}} The State Dinner".Dinner]]". Let's face it, stubbornly and self-righteously insisting that a rather confrontational denunciation of Indonesia's human rights abuses be added into a toast for the Indonesian President at a state dinner ''in his honour'' is rather undiplomatic, however justified. But when you ''then'' have to ask a high-ranking Indonesian official -- who is unlikely to be very happy with said denunciation and is likely to know who included it -- to use his influence to get a friend of yours out of an Indonesian jail, it just looks stupid on top of that.
9th Feb '17 7:36:42 AM ImperialMajestyXO
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* AwesomeMusic: [[AwesomeMusic/TheWestWing Has a sub-page]] now.

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* AwesomeMusic: SugarWiki/AwesomeMusic: [[AwesomeMusic/TheWestWing Has a sub-page]] now.
3rd Feb '17 6:45:24 AM 06tele
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** In Russell's case it's heavily implied that he is nowhere near as dumb as he likes people to think he is, and in fact that he is a ManipulativeBastard who has skillfully used ObfuscatingStupidity to make people think him an easygoing, lightweight guy who's useful to have around, which in turn has helped to make it easier for him to climb the ladder. It becomes noticeable when he talks about his own image: genuinely stupid people don't think they are, or come across as, stupid, whereas Russell is very aware of his public image and he seizes the Veep job in an effort to make himself seem more...presidential.

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** In Russell's case it's heavily implied that he is nowhere near as dumb as he likes people to think he is, and in fact that he is a ManipulativeBastard who has skillfully used ObfuscatingStupidity to make people think him an easygoing, lightweight guy who's useful to have around, which in turn has helped to make it easier for him to climb the ladder. It becomes noticeable when he talks about his own image: genuinely stupid people don't think they are, or come across as, are stupid but they also don't realise that they ''seem'' stupid, whereas Russell is very aware of his public image and he seizes the Veep job in an effort to make himself seem more...more presidential.
2nd Feb '17 1:25:22 AM 06tele
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Added DiffLines:

** In Russell's case it's heavily implied that he is nowhere near as dumb as he likes people to think he is, and in fact that he is a ManipulativeBastard who has skillfully used ObfuscatingStupidity to make people think him an easygoing, lightweight guy who's useful to have around, which in turn has helped to make it easier for him to climb the ladder. It becomes noticeable when he talks about his own image: genuinely stupid people don't think they are, or come across as, stupid, whereas Russell is very aware of his public image and he seizes the Veep job in an effort to make himself seem more...presidential.
1st Feb '17 10:51:24 PM Doug86
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** Kenneth Choi has a very brief role as a member of the Secret Service in "Six Meetings Before Lunch" before getting some greater recognition for playing Jim Morita in the Franchise/MarvelCinematicUniverse, Henry Lin in ''SonsOfAnarchy'', and Judge Lance Ito in ''[[Series/AmericanCrimeStory The People v. O.J. Simpson]]''.

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** Kenneth Choi has a very brief role as a member of the Secret Service in "Six Meetings Before Lunch" before getting some greater recognition for playing Jim Morita in the Franchise/MarvelCinematicUniverse, Henry Lin in ''SonsOfAnarchy'', ''Series/SonsOfAnarchy'', and Judge Lance Ito in ''[[Series/AmericanCrimeStory The People v. O.J. Simpson]]''.
19th Jan '17 7:36:03 AM Chuckles1188
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* SeasonalRot: Season Five is not well-regarded. Sorkin had just left, and the new show runner John Wells took a while to adjust. Consequently, the tone is a lot more downbeat, cynical and gloomy, and the previously close-knit and loyal characters seem to be at each other's throats a lot more than previously. Fans who enjoy the post-Sorkin run consider the switch to the ''next'' presidential campaign to be a vast improvement.

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* SeasonalRot: Season Five is not well-regarded. Sorkin had just left, and the new show runner John Wells took a while to adjust. Consequently, the tone is a lot more downbeat, cynical and gloomy, and the previously close-knit and loyal characters seem to be at each other's throats a lot more than previously. Fans who enjoy the post-Sorkin run consider the switch to the ''next'' presidential campaign to be a vast improvement. As a good demonstration of this, take a look at the CrowningMomentOfFunny page for TWW and compare the number of entries for Season Five to... any other season.
16th Jan '17 2:35:59 AM 06tele
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* In Hoynes's case there's also a strong case of {{Narcissist}}: he genuinely believes that he's ''entitled'' to be president and never really grasps that Bartlet is more deserving. He contemptuously refers to Bartlet as "your guy" on one occasion, forgetting that he's only got the Veep job because Bartlet thought that ought to have it. In his more humble moments, Hoynes accepts this, but he doesn't have a lot of them.

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* ** In Hoynes's case there's also a strong case of {{Narcissist}}: he genuinely believes that he's ''entitled'' to be president and never really grasps that Bartlet is more deserving. He contemptuously refers to Bartlet as "your guy" on one occasion, forgetting that he's only got the Veep job because Bartlet thought that ought to have it. In his more humble moments, Hoynes accepts this, but he doesn't have a lot of them.
16th Jan '17 2:35:17 AM 06tele
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* In Hoynes's case there's also a strong case of {{Narcissist}}: he genuinely believes that he's ''entitled'' to be president and never really grasps that Bartlet is more deserving. He contemptuously refers to Bartlet as "your guy" on one occasion, forgetting that he's only got the Veep job because Bartlet thought that ought to have it. In his more humble moments, Hoynes accepts this, but he doesn't have a lot of them.



** It's hard not to feel sympathetic for Hoynes when he is frequently disrespected by the staff and the president.

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** It's hard not to feel sympathetic for Hoynes when he is frequently disrespected by the staff and the president. (But then he goes and says something so smug and entitled that it wears off.)




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** After Toby has reconnected enough with his ex-wife Andrea for her to be (at last) pregnant with his kids -- it's implied that they tried for years to have kids, never with success -- his attempts to persuade her to remarry him invoke this, because she doesn't want to. Not because she's mean, but because she is convinced (probably rightly) that it wouldn't make them happy. Her loving but sorrowful description of him as "too sad" is what clinches it.
2nd Jan '17 3:30:49 PM 04tele
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** In "Isaac and Ishmael", Sam says "Not only do terrorists always fail at what they're after, they pretty much always succeed in strengthening whatever it is they're against." He goes on to list a number of failed terrorist organisations. He fails, however, to mention [[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Umkhonto_we_Sizwe Umkhonto we Sizwe]], the military wing of the African National Congress, which undoubtedly used tactics against the apartheid regime in South Africa which would normally be considered terrorism, including the bombing of civilian targets.[[note]]The US government classified Umkhonto we Sizwe as a terrorist organisation, which Sam should have known.[[/note]] What happened in South Africa? The African National Congress achieved its aims: apartheid collapsed and white rule of the country along with it, and Umkhonto we Sizwe ended up being incorporated into the South African military. Only a racist would say that the collapse of apartheid was a bad thing, but the fact is that terrorists do not always fail, and they certainly do not always strengthen the things they're against.[[note]] Sam's argument that terrorism always fails is very much a No True Scotsman argument, in that he claims that every counter-example anyone brings up is not an example of successful terrorism. One kid mentions the IRA, and Sam says "The Brits are still there. The Protestants are still there." The Provisional IRA did not want to expel all Protestants from Northern Ireland; it wanted to end Protestant domination of Northern Ireland's government. It did aim to create a united Ireland, but it came to accept that it would be wrong to go on demanding one if a majority of people in Northern Ireland didn't want one, which is why it settled for power-sharing. And there is no doubt that the UK government's decades-long policy of not negotiating with terrorists proved to be useless in dealing with the IRA; as long as Westminster refused to negotiate, the violence continued, and when they finally started to negotiate and real changes were made to the government in Northern Ireland, the Provisional IRA called a ceasefire and eventually ended its armed campaign. This is an especially amusing example of a CRF since the necessity of negotiating with the IRA was actually recognised in The West Wing Episode "Dead Irish Writers", in which Lord John Marbury privately admits to Toby that the British government needs the US government to talk to Sinn Fein politican Brendan [=McGann=], which is a reference to how the Clinton administration helped to normalise relations between Sinn Fein and the UK government by granting Sinn Fein's president Gerry Adams a US visa and by making repeated visits to Britain and Ireland.[[/note]]

to:

** In "Isaac and Ishmael", Sam says "Not only do terrorists always fail at what they're after, they pretty much always succeed in strengthening whatever it is they're against." He goes on to list a number of failed terrorist organisations. He fails, however, to mention [[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Umkhonto_we_Sizwe Umkhonto we Sizwe]], the military wing of the African National Congress, which undoubtedly used tactics against the apartheid regime in South Africa which would normally be considered terrorism, including the bombing of civilian targets.[[note]]The US government classified Umkhonto we Sizwe as a terrorist organisation, which Sam should have known.[[/note]] What happened in South Africa? The African National Congress achieved its aims: apartheid collapsed and white rule of the country along with it, and Umkhonto we Sizwe ended up being incorporated into the South African military. Only a racist would say that the collapse of apartheid was a bad thing, but the fact is that terrorists do not always fail, and they certainly do not always strengthen the things they're against.[[note]] Sam's argument that terrorism always fails is very much a No True Scotsman argument, in that he claims that every counter-example anyone brings up is not an example of successful terrorism. One kid mentions the IRA, and Sam says "The Brits are still there. The Protestants are still there." The Provisional IRA did not want to expel all Protestants from Northern Ireland; it wanted to end Protestant domination of Northern Ireland's government. It did aim to create a united Ireland, but it came to accept that it would be wrong to go on demanding one if a majority of people in Northern Ireland didn't want one, which is why it settled for power-sharing. And there is no doubt that the UK government's decades-long policy of not negotiating with terrorists proved to be useless in dealing with the IRA; as long as Westminster refused to negotiate, the violence continued, and when they finally started to negotiate and real changes were made to the government in Northern Ireland, the Provisional IRA called a ceasefire and eventually ended its armed campaign. This is an especially amusing example of a CRF since the necessity of negotiating with the IRA was actually recognised in The West Wing Episode "Dead Irish Writers", in which Lord John Marbury privately admits to Toby that the British government needs the US government to talk to Sinn Fein politican Brendan [=McGann=], which is a reference to how the Clinton administration helped to normalise relations between Sinn Fein and the UK government by granting Sinn Fein's president Gerry Adams a US visa and visa, by making President Clinton's repeated visits to Britain and Ireland, and by the appointment of former US Senator George Mitchell as the US's Special Envoy for Northern Ireland.[[/note]]
2nd Jan '17 3:28:31 PM 04tele
Is there an issue? Send a Message


** In "Isaac and Ishmael", Sam says "Not only do terrorists always fail at what they're after, they pretty much always succeed in strengthening whatever it is they're against." He goes on to list a number of failed terrorist organisations. He fails, however, to mention [[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Umkhonto_we_Sizwe Umkhonto we Sizwe]], the military wing of the African National Congress, which undoubtedly used tactics against the apartheid regime in South Africa which would normally be considered terrorism, including the bombing of civilian targets.[[note]]The US government classified Umkhonto we Sizwe as a terrorist organisation, which Sam should have known.[[/note]] What happened in South Africa? The African National Congress achieved its aims: apartheid collapsed and white rule of the country along with it, and Umkhonto we Sizwe ended up being incorporated into the South African military. Only a racist would say that the collapse of apartheid was a bad thing, but the fact is that terrorists do not always fail, and they certainly do not always strengthen the things they're against.[[note]] Sam's argument that terrorism always fails is very much a No True Scotsman argument, in that he claims that every counter-example anyone brings up is not an example of successful terrorism. One kid mentions the IRA, and Sam says "The Brits are still there. The Protestants are still there." The Provisional IRA did not want to expel all Protestants from Northern Ireland; it wanted to end Protestant domination of Northern Ireland's government. It did aim to create a united Ireland, but it came to accept that it would be wrong to go on demanding one if a majority of people in Northern Ireland didn't want one, which is why it settled for power-sharing. And there is no doubt that the UK government's decades-long policy of not negotiating with terrorists proved to be useless in dealing with the IRA; as long as Westminster refused to negotiate, the violence continued, and when they finally started to negotiate and real changes were made to the government in Northern Ireland, the Provisional IRA called a ceasefire and eventually ended its armed campaign. This is an especially amusing example of a CRF since the necessity of negotiating with the IRA was actually recognised in The West Wing Episode "Dead Irish Writers", in which Lord John Marbury privately admits to Toby that the British government needs the US government to talk to Sinn Fein politican Brendan McGann, which is a reference to how the Clinton administration helped to broker the Good Friday Agreement which effectively ended the Northern Irish Troubles.[[/note]]

to:

** In "Isaac and Ishmael", Sam says "Not only do terrorists always fail at what they're after, they pretty much always succeed in strengthening whatever it is they're against." He goes on to list a number of failed terrorist organisations. He fails, however, to mention [[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Umkhonto_we_Sizwe Umkhonto we Sizwe]], the military wing of the African National Congress, which undoubtedly used tactics against the apartheid regime in South Africa which would normally be considered terrorism, including the bombing of civilian targets.[[note]]The US government classified Umkhonto we Sizwe as a terrorist organisation, which Sam should have known.[[/note]] What happened in South Africa? The African National Congress achieved its aims: apartheid collapsed and white rule of the country along with it, and Umkhonto we Sizwe ended up being incorporated into the South African military. Only a racist would say that the collapse of apartheid was a bad thing, but the fact is that terrorists do not always fail, and they certainly do not always strengthen the things they're against.[[note]] Sam's argument that terrorism always fails is very much a No True Scotsman argument, in that he claims that every counter-example anyone brings up is not an example of successful terrorism. One kid mentions the IRA, and Sam says "The Brits are still there. The Protestants are still there." The Provisional IRA did not want to expel all Protestants from Northern Ireland; it wanted to end Protestant domination of Northern Ireland's government. It did aim to create a united Ireland, but it came to accept that it would be wrong to go on demanding one if a majority of people in Northern Ireland didn't want one, which is why it settled for power-sharing. And there is no doubt that the UK government's decades-long policy of not negotiating with terrorists proved to be useless in dealing with the IRA; as long as Westminster refused to negotiate, the violence continued, and when they finally started to negotiate and real changes were made to the government in Northern Ireland, the Provisional IRA called a ceasefire and eventually ended its armed campaign. This is an especially amusing example of a CRF since the necessity of negotiating with the IRA was actually recognised in The West Wing Episode "Dead Irish Writers", in which Lord John Marbury privately admits to Toby that the British government needs the US government to talk to Sinn Fein politican Brendan McGann, [=McGann=], which is a reference to how the Clinton administration helped to broker normalise relations between Sinn Fein and the Good Friday Agreement which effectively ended the Northern Irish Troubles.UK government by granting Sinn Fein's president Gerry Adams a US visa and by making repeated visits to Britain and Ireland.[[/note]]
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