History YMMV / TheSilmarillion

3rd Aug '17 4:35:11 PM TheGracefullyWicked
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** StoicWoobie: Maedhros



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** StoicWoobie: Maedhros


Maedhros. Being tortured at the hands of Morgoth and Sauron, losing a hand, most of his family (including Fingon, who meant a lot to him), and being the ''only'' known Elf to ever commit suicide qualifies him for woobie status. Letting absolutely ''nothing'' of this show through (aside from a few instances) got him the stoic part.


9th Jul '17 4:27:59 AM TheGracefullyWicked
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* HoYayShipping: Maedhros/Fingon, interpreting their story as a RescueRomance. And on the other side, Melian/Galadriel, which tends to be written as a TeacherStudentRomance. Glorfindel/Ecthelion is quite popular on Tumblr as well, mostly in the form of fanart.

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* HoYayShipping: Maedhros/Fingon, [[KissingCousins Maedhros/Fingon]], interpreting their story as a RescueRomance. And on the other side, Melian/Galadriel, which tends to be written as a TeacherStudentRomance. Glorfindel/Ecthelion is quite popular on Tumblr as well, mostly in the form of fanart.
3rd Jul '17 9:08:48 AM TheGracefullyWicked
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* HoYayShipping: Maedhros/Fingon, interpreting their story as a RescueRomance. And on the other side, Melian/Galadriel, which tends to be written as a TeacherStudentRomance.

to:

* HoYayShipping: Maedhros/Fingon, interpreting their story as a RescueRomance. And on the other side, Melian/Galadriel, which tends to be written as a TeacherStudentRomance. Glorfindel/Ecthelion is quite popular on Tumblr as well, mostly in the form of fanart.
23rd Jun '17 3:29:00 PM GothicProphet
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** While Melkor/Morgoth is usually recognized as evil (see DracoInLeatherPants beneath), the Valar are often cited as morally ambiguous or outrightly in the KnightTemplar territory. The reason why it's not RonTheDeathEater is because Tolkien did originally write the Valar as more morally ambiguous, before rewriting them to be more angelic.
** Celegorm. Oh boy. What exactly were Celegorm's intentions with Lúthien? Did he intend to wed her (and therefore, ultimately have sex with her) entirely against her will, or did he in his arrogance believe Lúthien would come to love him back? Why he was ready to let Finrod, his cousin, to die like that? Was it all for the greater good, or for his own glory? What was the nature of his relationship with Aredhel? And these are just the starting questions...

to:

** While Melkor/Morgoth is usually recognized as evil (see DracoInLeatherPants beneath), the Valar are often cited as morally ambiguous or outrightly outright in the KnightTemplar territory. The reason why it's not RonTheDeathEater is because Tolkien did originally write the Valar as more morally ambiguous, before rewriting them to be more angelic.
** Celegorm. Oh boy. What exactly were Celegorm's his intentions with Lúthien? Did he intend to wed her (and therefore, ultimately have sex with her) entirely against her will, or did he in his arrogance believe Lúthien would come to love him back? Why he was ready to let Finrod, his cousin, to die like that? Was it all for the greater good, or for his own glory? What was the nature of his relationship with Aredhel? And these are just the starting questions...questions...
** Curufin. What made him and Celegorm turn against their cousin in such heartless way? Was it fear of Morgoth and of the destruction of all the Elven realms - they were living as refugees with their people themselves at that point, thanks to Morgoth overpowering all the Noldorin might in the Battle of the Sudden Flame. Was it ego and pride of their elder house, and wish to see it restored back to power - as some of the Sons had not agreed with Maedhros turning down the crown of the High King.
23rd Jun '17 3:19:22 PM GothicProphet
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* AlternativeCharacterInterpretation: While Melkor/Morgoth is usually recognized as evil (see DracoInLeatherPants beneath), the Valar are often cited as morally ambiguous or outrightly in the KnightTemplar territory. The reason why it's not RonTheDeathEater is because Tolkien did originally write the Valar as more morally ambiguous, before rewriting them to be more angelic.

to:

* AlternativeCharacterInterpretation: AlternativeCharacterInterpretation:
**
While Melkor/Morgoth is usually recognized as evil (see DracoInLeatherPants beneath), the Valar are often cited as morally ambiguous or outrightly in the KnightTemplar territory. The reason why it's not RonTheDeathEater is because Tolkien did originally write the Valar as more morally ambiguous, before rewriting them to be more angelic.angelic.
** Celegorm. Oh boy. What exactly were Celegorm's intentions with Lúthien? Did he intend to wed her (and therefore, ultimately have sex with her) entirely against her will, or did he in his arrogance believe Lúthien would come to love him back? Why he was ready to let Finrod, his cousin, to die like that? Was it all for the greater good, or for his own glory? What was the nature of his relationship with Aredhel? And these are just the starting questions...
17th Jun '17 5:30:00 AM Bauglir100
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Added DiffLines:

* TheyWastedAPerfectlyGoodCharacter: Ungoliant. She poisoned the Two Trees, devoured their light, produces an extremely potent darkness that could keep ''Tulkas'' at bay, nearly defeated Morgoth himself, survived the subsequent retaliation by the Balrogs, and mothered countless demon-spider hybrids (including Shelob). You would think these infamous deeds would qualify her as a major character in the story, right? Nope, she slinks off from the story [[KarmaHoudini unscathed]], and is never seen again. Instead, it's only speculated that she [[DroppedABridgeOnHim devoured herself later on]]. Then again, [[HesJustHiding she might still be holed up somewhere in the South]].
14th Jun '17 10:26:34 PM darkabomination
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* WhatCouldHaveBeen:
** In some stories printed in ''The History of Middle-earth'', Tolkien noted that Ungoliant was killed by Eärendil on his voyages. He later dropped this idea and had her [[ShrugOfGod possibly]] devour herself.
** Ungoliant was [[Literature/TheHistoryOfMiddleEarth originally]] a primeval spirit of Darkness, whose origins were completely unknown, though presumably a creature from the Void. This is changed in later versions of ''Literature/TheSilmarillion'', where it is more evident that she was one of the Maiar that served Melkor [[ScrewThisImOuttaHere until she deserted him]].
** The first versions of Lúthien and her tale are very different from how the story finally shaped out to be. Originally, she was a blue-eyed blonde dressed up [[WomanInWhite in white]], Daeron was her brother, and Beren was an elf, Sauron was [[CatsAreMean a huge cat]], she didn't die but walked into Valinor over Helcaraxë to meet Mandos, and so forth.
** In some drafts for the ''Akallabêth'', Míriel fell in love with Ar-Pharazôn, married him voluntarily, and gave up most of her power to him.
11th Jun '17 8:20:40 AM MarqFJA
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Added DiffLines:

* WhatCouldHaveBeen:
** In some stories printed in ''The History of Middle-earth'', Tolkien noted that Ungoliant was killed by Eärendil on his voyages. He later dropped this idea and had her [[ShrugOfGod possibly]] devour herself.
** Ungoliant was [[Literature/TheHistoryOfMiddleEarth originally]] a primeval spirit of Darkness, whose origins were completely unknown, though presumably a creature from the Void. This is changed in later versions of ''Literature/TheSilmarillion'', where it is more evident that she was one of the Maiar that served Melkor [[ScrewThisImOuttaHere until she deserted him]].
** The first versions of Lúthien and her tale are very different from how the story finally shaped out to be. Originally, she was a blue-eyed blonde dressed up [[WomanInWhite in white]], Daeron was her brother, and Beren was an elf, Sauron was [[CatsAreMean a huge cat]], she didn't die but walked into Valinor over Helcaraxë to meet Mandos, and so forth.
** In some drafts for the ''Akallabêth'', Míriel fell in love with Ar-Pharazôn, married him voluntarily, and gave up most of her power to him.
20th May '17 6:08:30 AM darkabomination
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* DarknessInducedAudienceApathy: ''The Silmarillion'', in fleshing out the history of Middle-Earth, paints the picture of a world which is an irreparably broken shadow of its former glory that will continue to backslide until a Ragnarok-alike event in the far future. It's understandable if this colors your enjoyment of ''The Hobbit'' and ''The Lord of the Rings'' somewhat.

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* DarknessInducedAudienceApathy: DarknessInducedAudienceApathy:
**
''The Silmarillion'', in fleshing out the history of Middle-Earth, paints the picture of a world which is an irreparably broken shadow of its former glory that will continue to backslide until a Ragnarok-alike event in the far future.future wipes the slate clean. It's understandable if this colors your enjoyment of ''The Hobbit'' and ''The Lord of the Rings'' somewhat.



* EnsembleDarkhorse: Nerdanel. The amount of fanfiction and fanart she has received is in no proportion to the very limited pagetime she has in the published ''Silmarillion''.
* FauxActionGuy: Beren is certainly a badass, but his contributions to the quest for a Silmaril are...less than heroic (though no doubt courageous). He immediately gets captured (so Lúthien has to save him), had no plan on how to get into Angband (so Lúthien did it for him), got his stupid hand bitten off ([[RuleOfThree so Lúthien had to heal him]]) by Carcharoth, which also caused an epic wave of destruction in its wake, then later got his ass handed to him again by the same monster (so Huan killed it instead and Luthien had to bargain with Mandos to bring him back). Lúthien and Huan could have done the whole thing without him. He was actually more of a liability than a help.
** Possibly justified considering he was a mortal surrounded by gods, demigods and angels/demons in that quest. Prior to that, he [[OneManArmy fought a one-man guerilla war]] against Morgoth's forces for several years with only woodland creatures for allies, like some combination Batman/Snow White. And he did it so well, his head was worth the same bounty as that on the High King of the Noldor.

to:

* EnsembleDarkhorse: EnsembleDarkhorse:
**
Nerdanel. The amount of fanfiction and fanart she has received is in no proportion to the very limited pagetime she has in the published ''Silmarillion''.
* FauxActionGuy: Beren is certainly a badass, but his contributions to the quest for a Silmaril are...less than heroic (though no doubt courageous). He immediately gets captured (so Lúthien has to save him), had no plan on how to get into Angband (so Lúthien did it for him), got his stupid hand bitten off ([[RuleOfThree so Lúthien had to heal him]]) by Carcharoth, which also caused an epic wave of destruction in its wake, then later got his ass handed to him again by the
''Silmarillion''.
** The
same monster (so Huan killed it instead and Luthien had to bargain with Mandos to bring him back). Lúthien and Huan could have done goes for Idril Celebrindal. Despite her brief time on page, she is the whole thing without him. He was actually more of a liability than a help.
** Possibly justified considering he was a mortal surrounded by gods, demigods and angels/demons in that quest. Prior to that, he [[OneManArmy fought a one-man guerilla war]] against Morgoth's forces for several years with only woodland creatures for allies, like some combination Batman/Snow White. And he did
single reason why anyone made it so well, his head was worth the same bounty as that on the High King out of the Noldor.city of Gondolin alive. She's also got a good deal of description on her appearance for the book, making it easier for cosplay and fanart.
* GatewaySeries: This is basically a rite of passage for any serious Tolkien fan. While not everyone who reads the book has the patience or willpower for the hardcore notes, family trees, conjecture, and scholarly work with ''Unfinished Tales'' or ''The History of Middle-Earth'', its still a great crash course of the mythos.



* HoYay: Maedhros/Fingon, interpreting their story as a RescueRomance. And on the other side, Melian/Galadriel, which tends to be written as a TeacherStudentRomance.

to:

* HoYay: HoYayShipping: Maedhros/Fingon, interpreting their story as a RescueRomance. And on the other side, Melian/Galadriel, which tends to be written as a TeacherStudentRomance.



* NeverLiveItDown: Isildur. He performed many great and heroic deeds in his life, not least saving the White Tree and defeating Sauron. Nevertheless the White Council (and real life Tolkien fans) remember him mainly as the man whose hubris allowed Sauron to survive, completely forgetting the good things he did before his FaceHeelTurn.

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* NeverLiveItDown: NeverLiveItDown:
**
Isildur. He performed many great and heroic deeds in his life, not least saving the White Tree and defeating Sauron. Nevertheless the White Council (and real life Tolkien fans) remember him mainly as the man whose hubris allowed Sauron to survive, completely forgetting the good things he did before his FaceHeelTurn.



* OlderThanTheyThink: [[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earendel "Earendel"]] is an old Northern European name for a god or a star or something along those lines. It seems to be one of those words that stick in people's heads: names like Earendel/ Horwendill crop up in the oddest places, including the works of Creator/JamesBranchCabell and John Fowles's ''Literature/TheMagus''.

to:

* OlderThanTheyThink: OlderThanTheyThink:
**
[[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earendel "Earendel"]] is an old Northern European name for a god or a star or something along those lines. It seems to be one of those words that stick in people's heads: names like Earendel/ Horwendill crop up in the oddest places, including the works of Creator/JamesBranchCabell and John Fowles's ''Literature/TheMagus''.''Literature/TheMagus''.
** The DarkerAndEdgier narrative {{Deconstruction}} of typical fantasy novels. While they tend to be praised for subverting what seems like a simple good vs. evil story of Tolkien's writing, more often than not they're specifically thinking of ''The Lord of the Rings''. Reading the Silmarillion for the first time, several may be surprised to find a bleak, depressing story where the forces of good are fighting a slowly losing battle, several characters are some flavor of anti-hero or another, a distressingly large number of elves are imperialistic, genocidal racists that [[BlackAndGreyMorality still oppose the forces of evil]], humans fight to live short, violent lives in a world that's doing everything it can to kill them, and ambiguity and pragmatism is the rule, not the exception. Most coming in to read a prequel to a work that's commonly seen as somewhat simplistic and sappy nowadays don't expect a tone and setting more akin to ''Manga/{{Berserk}}''.


Added DiffLines:

* WhatMeasureIsANonBadass: Beren is certainly a badass, but his contributions to the quest for a Silmaril are...less than heroic (though no doubt courageous). He immediately gets captured (so Lúthien has to save him), had no plan on how to get into Angband (so Lúthien did it for him), got his stupid hand bitten off ([[RuleOfThree so Lúthien had to heal him]]) by Carcharoth, which also caused an epic wave of destruction in its wake, then later got his ass handed to him again by the same monster (so Huan killed it instead and Luthien had to bargain with Mandos to bring him back). It's also important to remember that he was a mortal surrounded by gods, demigods and angels/demons in that quest. Prior to that, he [[OneManArmy fought a one-man guerilla war]] against Morgoth's forces for several years with only woodland creatures for allies, like some combination of Batman/Snow White. And he did it so well, his head was worth the same bounty as that on the High King of the Noldor. In a quest full of some of the most legendarily badass elves on record, a GodOfEvil opposing them, and several unique beings that existed in this time only, it's hard not to be OvershadowedByAwesome.
29th Dec '16 4:00:35 AM Shadowgazer
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** The best or rather worst examples from a side other than Morgoth's are undoubtedly Celegorm and Curufin, however. They [[SarcasmMode boast]] such great feats as: being the only elves we know of to ever try [[RapeIsASpecialKindOfEvil to force]] [[WorldsMostBeautifulWoman Lúthien]] to marriage and attempt to trample Beren and then kill him out of spite even after he spared their unworthy lives, plotting to have Finrod (their first cousin on their father's side) killed so that they can take his kingdom and actually ''encouraging'' the [[FinalSolution Second]] [[WouldBeRudeToSayGenocide Kinslaying]] as a direct result of failing to get Lúthien. And yet, after all that, they are still unquestionably, absolutely, utterly against [[BigBad Morgoth]] while being every bit as vile as his servants.

to:

** The best or rather worst examples from a side other than Morgoth's are undoubtedly Celegorm and Curufin, however. They [[SarcasmMode boast]] such great feats as: being the only elves we know of to ever try [[RapeIsASpecialKindOfEvil to force]] [[WorldsMostBeautifulWoman Lúthien]] to marriage and attempt to trample Beren and then kill him out of spite even [[UngratefulBastard after he spared their unworthy lives, lives]], plotting to have Finrod (their first cousin on their father's side) killed so that they can take his kingdom and actually ''encouraging'' the [[FinalSolution Second]] [[WouldBeRudeToSayGenocide Kinslaying]] as a direct result of failing to get Lúthien. And yet, after all that, they are still unquestionably, absolutely, utterly against [[BigBad Morgoth]] while being every bit as vile as his servants.
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