History YMMV / TheSilmarillion

7th Sep '16 2:04:25 AM PaulA
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* OlderThanTheyThink: [[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earendel "Earendel"]] is an old Northern European name for a god or a star or something along those lines. It seems to be one of those words that stick in people's heads: names like Earendel/ Horwendill crop up in the oddest places - James Branch Cabell and John Fowles's ''The Magus'', and such.

to:

* OlderThanTheyThink: [[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earendel "Earendel"]] is an old Northern European name for a god or a star or something along those lines. It seems to be one of those words that stick in people's heads: names like Earendel/ Horwendill crop up in the oddest places - James Branch Cabell places, including the works of Creator/JamesBranchCabell and John Fowles's ''The Magus'', and such.''Literature/TheMagus''.
31st Aug '16 6:17:25 AM narm00
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** Morgoth's BastardUnderstudy Sauron is a demonstration of how those who were once noble can fall to great evil. Sauron was once noble Maiar who was swayed to Morgoth's side. Over time, Sauron's noble intentions for the world were replaced with vanity and lust for power. In the First Age, Sauron convinced a man to betray his comrades, showing him a vision of his beloved wife... once the man did what Sauron asked, Sauron revealed she was already dead and had his hapless pawn tortured to death as he [[ExactWords had promised to reunite them.]] Upon capturing the hero Beren and his companions, Sauron placed them in his dungeons where he allowed his werewolves to slowly pick the group off, one by one, to torment the survivors. After the defeat of his master, Sauron fled to Numenor, assuming the fair form of Annatar, the Bringer of Gifts and seduced Numenor towards darkness and evil until it was a Morgoth-worshipping theocracy that practiced human sacrifice. This was an act so unholy, Eru Illuvatar, the equivalent of God, stepped in to destroy Numenor. Even then, Sauron was not done, and tricked the other races with the Rings of Power, forging his master ring to enslave all that lived. In the Third age, he embarked on a genocidal war for conquest, seeking only to feed his lust for domination and megalomania.

to:

** Morgoth's BastardUnderstudy Sauron is a demonstration of how those who were once noble can fall to great evil. Sauron was once a noble Maiar who was swayed to Morgoth's side. Over time, Sauron's noble intentions for the world were replaced with vanity and lust for power. In the First Age, Sauron convinced a man to betray his comrades, showing him a vision of his beloved wife... once the man did what Sauron asked, Sauron revealed she was already dead and had his hapless pawn tortured to death as he [[ExactWords had promised to reunite them.]] Upon capturing the hero Beren and his companions, Sauron placed them in his dungeons where he allowed his werewolves to slowly pick the group off, one by one, to torment the survivors. After the defeat of his master, Sauron fled to Numenor, assuming the fair form of Annatar, the Bringer of Gifts and seduced Numenor towards darkness and evil until it was a Morgoth-worshipping theocracy that practiced human sacrifice. This was an act so unholy, Eru Illuvatar, the equivalent of God, stepped in to destroy Numenor. Even then, Sauron was not done, and tricked the other races with the Rings of Power, forging his master ring to enslave all that lived. In the Third age, Age, he embarked on a genocidal war for conquest, seeking only to feed his lust for domination and megalomania.



** So does [[BigBad Morgoth]]. Apparently, he looks like TheWoobie for some. There is even a major Russian fanfic, ''The Black Book of Arda'', that even was piratey published as a book, that retells Silm from Woobie!Melkor's viewpoint.

to:

** So does [[BigBad Morgoth]]. Apparently, he looks like TheWoobie for some. There is even a major Russian fanfic, ''The Black Book of Arda'', that was even was piratey published pirate-published as a book, that retells Silm from Woobie!Melkor's viewpoint.



** The best or rather worst examples from a side other than Morgoth's are undoubtedly Celegorm and Curufin, however. They [[SarcasmMode boast]] such great feats as: being the only elves we know of to ever try to [[RapeIsASpecialKindOfEvil to force ]]([[WorldsMostBeautifulWoman Lúthien]]) to marriage and attempt to trample Beren and then kill him out of spite even after he spared their unworthy lives, plotting to have Finrod (their first cousin on their father's side) killed so that they can take his kingdom and actually ''encouraging'' the [[FinalSolution Second]] [[WouldBeRudeToSayGenocide Kinslaying]] as a direct result of failing to get Lúthien. And yet, after all that, they are still unquestionably, absolutely, utterly against [[BigBad Morgoth]] while being every bit as vile as his servants.

to:

** The best or rather worst examples from a side other than Morgoth's are undoubtedly Celegorm and Curufin, however. They [[SarcasmMode boast]] such great feats as: being the only elves we know of to ever try to [[RapeIsASpecialKindOfEvil to force ]]([[WorldsMostBeautifulWoman Lúthien]]) force]] [[WorldsMostBeautifulWoman Lúthien]] to marriage and attempt to trample Beren and then kill him out of spite even after he spared their unworthy lives, plotting to have Finrod (their first cousin on their father's side) killed so that they can take his kingdom and actually ''encouraging'' the [[FinalSolution Second]] [[WouldBeRudeToSayGenocide Kinslaying]] as a direct result of failing to get Lúthien. And yet, after all that, they are still unquestionably, absolutely, utterly against [[BigBad Morgoth]] while being every bit as vile as his servants.



* OlderThanTheyThink: [[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earendel "Earendel"]] is an old Northern European name for a god or a star or something along those lines. It seems to be one of those words that stick in peoples' heads: names like Earendel/ Horwendill crop up in the oddest places - James Branch Cabell and John Fowles's ''The Magus'', and such.

to:

* OlderThanTheyThink: [[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earendel "Earendel"]] is an old Northern European name for a god or a star or something along those lines. It seems to be one of those words that stick in peoples' people's heads: names like Earendel/ Horwendill crop up in the oddest places - James Branch Cabell and John Fowles's ''The Magus'', and such.
20th Jul '16 2:48:28 AM Shadowgazer
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** Maeglin is known as the only elf ever to betray his people and make a pact with [[BigBad Morgoth]] after being promised Idril's hand and led the Angband troops to Gondolin causing the destruction of the once indomitable city and the slaughter of lots of his fellow elves. And even then he tried without any remorse to murder young Earendil personally and fought Tuor until Tuor threw him into the ashes of the city that he caused.
7th Jul '16 10:43:36 PM superboy313
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** [[BigBad Melkor]], later known as Morgoth Bauglir, begins life as one of the Valar, but his spite and arrogance precipitates his steady downfall into evil. Melkor begins by destroying the great lamps of Valinor and creating the pits of Utumno, where he takes as many races as he can and personally enacts [[ColdBloodedTorture hideous, unspeakable tortures]] upon them until all that remains are grotesque perversions that he can use as his servants. After his first defeat, Morgoth [[UngratefulBastard repays mercy with treachery]]. He proceeds to destroy the world trees, betrays and kills the king of the Noldor elves and [[{{greed}} steals their treasures]], leading to the deaths of many thousands of elves when they pursue him, before he sets up his base of operations in Middle-Earth. He delights in [[TheCorrupter corrupting men into darkness]], manufacturing and playing off corruption in their hearts to set them against each other and their allies. His "crowning achievement" is tricking and beguiling the first men into swearing an oath of eternal fealty to him, meant to enslave the race forever in body and spirit; mortality is considered a gift for Man, as normally souls of Men leave Arda and Morgoth's grasp. Morgoth launches brutal campaigns of slavery and genocide, with just one of the examples being the destruction of Gondolin, the most beautiful and proud elven city, including the full extermination of civilians, who are saved solely by the heroism of the city's warriors. Morgoth enslaves or kills the populations of entire regions. Morgoth also tries to rape the elven princess Luthien out of nothing more than cruel lust. Morgoth ends with no redeeming features whatsoever. At one point, he condemns a man to horrible torture and then enacts a curse to see his children grow, suffer horribly and be rejected by both life and death, solely because the man dared to defy him. An evil god, genocidal conqueror, [[EvilOverlord brutal overlord]], and corrupter, there is no act to evil for Morgoth, who commits petty and grandiose atrocities alike.

to:

** [[BigBad Melkor]], later known as Morgoth Bauglir, begins life as one of the Valar, but his spite and arrogance precipitates his steady downfall into evil. Melkor begins by destroying the great lamps of Valinor and creating the pits of Utumno, where he takes as many races as he can and personally enacts [[ColdBloodedTorture hideous, unspeakable tortures]] upon them until all that remains are grotesque perversions that he can use as his servants. After his first defeat, Morgoth [[UngratefulBastard repays mercy with treachery]]. He proceeds to destroy the world trees, betrays and kills the king of the Noldor elves and [[{{greed}} steals their treasures]], leading to the deaths of many thousands of elves when they pursue him, before he sets up his base of operations in Middle-Earth. He delights in [[TheCorrupter corrupting men into darkness]], manufacturing and playing off corruption in their hearts to set them against each other and their allies. His "crowning achievement" is tricking and beguiling the first men into swearing an oath of eternal fealty to him, meant to enslave the race forever in body and spirit; mortality is considered a gift for Man, as normally souls of Men leave Arda and Morgoth's grasp. Morgoth launches brutal campaigns of slavery and genocide, with just one of the examples being the destruction of Gondolin, the most beautiful and proud elven city, including the full extermination of civilians, who are saved solely by the heroism of the city's warriors. Morgoth enslaves or kills the populations of entire regions. Morgoth also tries to rape the elven princess Luthien out of nothing more than cruel lust. Morgoth ends with no redeeming features whatsoever. At one point, he condemns a man to horrible torture and then enacts a curse to see his children grow, suffer horribly and be rejected by both life and death, solely because the man dared to defy him. An evil god, genocidal conqueror, [[EvilOverlord brutal overlord]], and corrupter, there is no act to too evil for Morgoth, who commits petty and grandiose atrocities alike.
20th Mar '16 2:16:25 AM Tron80
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* FauxActionGuy: Beren is certainly a BadAss, but his contributions to the quest for a Silmaril are...less than heroic (though no doubt courageous). He immediately gets captured (so Lúthien has to save him), had no plan on how to get into Angband (so Lúthien did it for him), got his stupid hand bitten off ([[RuleOfThree so Lúthien had to heal him]]) by Carcharoth, which also caused an epic wave of destruction in its wake, then later got his ass handed to him again by the same monster (so Huan killed it instead and Luthien had to bargain with Mandos to bring him back). Lúthien and Huan could have done the whole thing without him. He was actually more of a liability than a help.

to:

* FauxActionGuy: Beren is certainly a BadAss, {{Badass}}, but his contributions to the quest for a Silmaril are...less than heroic (though no doubt courageous). He immediately gets captured (so Lúthien has to save him), had no plan on how to get into Angband (so Lúthien did it for him), got his stupid hand bitten off ([[RuleOfThree so Lúthien had to heal him]]) by Carcharoth, which also caused an epic wave of destruction in its wake, then later got his ass handed to him again by the same monster (so Huan killed it instead and Luthien had to bargain with Mandos to bring him back). Lúthien and Huan could have done the whole thing without him. He was actually more of a liability than a help.
16th Jan '16 7:18:27 AM Shadowgazer
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** The best examples from ''The Silmarillion'' are undoubtedly Celegorm and Curufin, however. They [[SarcasmMode boast]] such great feats as: being the only elves we know of to ever try to [[RapeIsASpecialKindOfEvil to force ]]([[WorldsMostBeautifulWoman Lúthien]]) to marriage and attempt to trample Beren and then kill him out of spite even after he spared their unworthy lives, plotting to have Finrod (their first cousin on their father's side) killed so that they can take his kingdom and actually ''encouraging'' the [[FinalSolution Second]] [[WouldBeRudeToSayGenocide Kinslaying]] as a direct result of failing to get Lúthien. And yet, after all that, they are still unquestionably, absolutely, utterly against [[BigBad Morgoth]] while being every bit as vile as his servants.

to:

** The best or rather worst examples from ''The Silmarillion'' a side other than Morgoth's are undoubtedly Celegorm and Curufin, however. They [[SarcasmMode boast]] such great feats as: being the only elves we know of to ever try to [[RapeIsASpecialKindOfEvil to force ]]([[WorldsMostBeautifulWoman Lúthien]]) to marriage and attempt to trample Beren and then kill him out of spite even after he spared their unworthy lives, plotting to have Finrod (their first cousin on their father's side) killed so that they can take his kingdom and actually ''encouraging'' the [[FinalSolution Second]] [[WouldBeRudeToSayGenocide Kinslaying]] as a direct result of failing to get Lúthien. And yet, after all that, they are still unquestionably, absolutely, utterly against [[BigBad Morgoth]] while being every bit as vile as his servants.
6th Jan '16 5:59:56 AM MagBas
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* CanonSue: Lúthien. She has all the classic elements of this (great power, incredibly beautiful, RebelliousPrincess, accomplishes a deed no one else ever managed, idealized representation of a real person, etc.), but ''[[TropesAreNotBad Tolkien makes it work]]''. The book's mythical style is probably why. Old stories are riddled with larger than life figures that cultures associate themselves with. Lúthien comes as this, and it is pretty clear the stories are painting her as some sort of great example of how to behave. It also helps that she's partly based on Tolkien's adored wife.
21st Dec '15 5:46:47 AM Shadowgazer
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** The best examples from ''The Silmarillion'' are undoubtedly Celegorm and Curufin, however. They [[SarcasmMode boast]] such great feats as: being the only elves we know of to ever try to [[RapeIsASpecialKindOfEvil to force ]] ([[WorldsMostBeautifulWoman on Lúthien]]) to marriage and attempt to trample Beren and kill him out of spite even after he spared their unworthy lives, plotting to have Finrod (their first cousin on their father's side) killed so that they can take his kingdom, actually ''encouraging'' the [[FinalSolution Second]] [[WouldBeRudeToSayGenocide Kinslaying]] as a direct result of failing to get Lúthien. And yet, after all that, they are still unquestionably, absolutely, utterly against [[BigBad Morgoth]] while being every bit as vile as his servants.

to:

** The best examples from ''The Silmarillion'' are undoubtedly Celegorm and Curufin, however. They [[SarcasmMode boast]] such great feats as: being the only elves we know of to ever try to [[RapeIsASpecialKindOfEvil to force ]] ([[WorldsMostBeautifulWoman on ]]([[WorldsMostBeautifulWoman Lúthien]]) to marriage and attempt to trample Beren and then kill him out of spite even after he spared their unworthy lives, plotting to have Finrod (their first cousin on their father's side) killed so that they can take his kingdom, kingdom and actually ''encouraging'' the [[FinalSolution Second]] [[WouldBeRudeToSayGenocide Kinslaying]] as a direct result of failing to get Lúthien. And yet, after all that, they are still unquestionably, absolutely, utterly against [[BigBad Morgoth]] while being every bit as vile as his servants.
21st Dec '15 5:30:57 AM Shadowgazer
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Added DiffLines:

** The best examples from ''The Silmarillion'' are undoubtedly Celegorm and Curufin, however. They [[SarcasmMode boast]] such great feats as: being the only elves we know of to ever try to [[RapeIsASpecialKindOfEvil to force ]] ([[WorldsMostBeautifulWoman on Lúthien]]) to marriage and attempt to trample Beren and kill him out of spite even after he spared their unworthy lives, plotting to have Finrod (their first cousin on their father's side) killed so that they can take his kingdom, actually ''encouraging'' the [[FinalSolution Second]] [[WouldBeRudeToSayGenocide Kinslaying]] as a direct result of failing to get Lúthien. And yet, after all that, they are still unquestionably, absolutely, utterly against [[BigBad Morgoth]] while being every bit as vile as his servants.
18th Nov '15 4:25:20 AM Sikon
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* HoYay: Maedhros/Fingon, interpreting their story as a RescueRomance. And on the other side, Melian/Galadriel, which tends to be written as a TeacherStudentRomance.
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