History YMMV / TheSilmarillion

20th Mar '16 2:16:25 AM Tron80
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* FauxActionGuy: Beren is certainly a BadAss, but his contributions to the quest for a Silmaril are...less than heroic (though no doubt courageous). He immediately gets captured (so Lúthien has to save him), had no plan on how to get into Angband (so Lúthien did it for him), got his stupid hand bitten off ([[RuleOfThree so Lúthien had to heal him]]) by Carcharoth, which also caused an epic wave of destruction in its wake, then later got his ass handed to him again by the same monster (so Huan killed it instead and Luthien had to bargain with Mandos to bring him back). Lúthien and Huan could have done the whole thing without him. He was actually more of a liability than a help.

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* FauxActionGuy: Beren is certainly a BadAss, {{Badass}}, but his contributions to the quest for a Silmaril are...less than heroic (though no doubt courageous). He immediately gets captured (so Lúthien has to save him), had no plan on how to get into Angband (so Lúthien did it for him), got his stupid hand bitten off ([[RuleOfThree so Lúthien had to heal him]]) by Carcharoth, which also caused an epic wave of destruction in its wake, then later got his ass handed to him again by the same monster (so Huan killed it instead and Luthien had to bargain with Mandos to bring him back). Lúthien and Huan could have done the whole thing without him. He was actually more of a liability than a help.
16th Jan '16 7:18:27 AM Shadowgazer
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** The best examples from ''The Silmarillion'' are undoubtedly Celegorm and Curufin, however. They [[SarcasmMode boast]] such great feats as: being the only elves we know of to ever try to [[RapeIsASpecialKindOfEvil to force ]]([[WorldsMostBeautifulWoman Lúthien]]) to marriage and attempt to trample Beren and then kill him out of spite even after he spared their unworthy lives, plotting to have Finrod (their first cousin on their father's side) killed so that they can take his kingdom and actually ''encouraging'' the [[FinalSolution Second]] [[WouldBeRudeToSayGenocide Kinslaying]] as a direct result of failing to get Lúthien. And yet, after all that, they are still unquestionably, absolutely, utterly against [[BigBad Morgoth]] while being every bit as vile as his servants.

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** The best or rather worst examples from ''The Silmarillion'' a side other than Morgoth's are undoubtedly Celegorm and Curufin, however. They [[SarcasmMode boast]] such great feats as: being the only elves we know of to ever try to [[RapeIsASpecialKindOfEvil to force ]]([[WorldsMostBeautifulWoman Lúthien]]) to marriage and attempt to trample Beren and then kill him out of spite even after he spared their unworthy lives, plotting to have Finrod (their first cousin on their father's side) killed so that they can take his kingdom and actually ''encouraging'' the [[FinalSolution Second]] [[WouldBeRudeToSayGenocide Kinslaying]] as a direct result of failing to get Lúthien. And yet, after all that, they are still unquestionably, absolutely, utterly against [[BigBad Morgoth]] while being every bit as vile as his servants.
6th Jan '16 5:59:56 AM MagBas
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* CanonSue: Lúthien. She has all the classic elements of this (great power, incredibly beautiful, RebelliousPrincess, accomplishes a deed no one else ever managed, idealized representation of a real person, etc.), but ''[[TropesAreNotBad Tolkien makes it work]]''. The book's mythical style is probably why. Old stories are riddled with larger than life figures that cultures associate themselves with. Lúthien comes as this, and it is pretty clear the stories are painting her as some sort of great example of how to behave. It also helps that she's partly based on Tolkien's adored wife.
21st Dec '15 5:46:47 AM Shadowgazer
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** The best examples from ''The Silmarillion'' are undoubtedly Celegorm and Curufin, however. They [[SarcasmMode boast]] such great feats as: being the only elves we know of to ever try to [[RapeIsASpecialKindOfEvil to force ]] ([[WorldsMostBeautifulWoman on Lúthien]]) to marriage and attempt to trample Beren and kill him out of spite even after he spared their unworthy lives, plotting to have Finrod (their first cousin on their father's side) killed so that they can take his kingdom, actually ''encouraging'' the [[FinalSolution Second]] [[WouldBeRudeToSayGenocide Kinslaying]] as a direct result of failing to get Lúthien. And yet, after all that, they are still unquestionably, absolutely, utterly against [[BigBad Morgoth]] while being every bit as vile as his servants.

to:

** The best examples from ''The Silmarillion'' are undoubtedly Celegorm and Curufin, however. They [[SarcasmMode boast]] such great feats as: being the only elves we know of to ever try to [[RapeIsASpecialKindOfEvil to force ]] ([[WorldsMostBeautifulWoman on ]]([[WorldsMostBeautifulWoman Lúthien]]) to marriage and attempt to trample Beren and then kill him out of spite even after he spared their unworthy lives, plotting to have Finrod (their first cousin on their father's side) killed so that they can take his kingdom, kingdom and actually ''encouraging'' the [[FinalSolution Second]] [[WouldBeRudeToSayGenocide Kinslaying]] as a direct result of failing to get Lúthien. And yet, after all that, they are still unquestionably, absolutely, utterly against [[BigBad Morgoth]] while being every bit as vile as his servants.
21st Dec '15 5:30:57 AM Shadowgazer
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Added DiffLines:

** The best examples from ''The Silmarillion'' are undoubtedly Celegorm and Curufin, however. They [[SarcasmMode boast]] such great feats as: being the only elves we know of to ever try to [[RapeIsASpecialKindOfEvil to force ]] ([[WorldsMostBeautifulWoman on Lúthien]]) to marriage and attempt to trample Beren and kill him out of spite even after he spared their unworthy lives, plotting to have Finrod (their first cousin on their father's side) killed so that they can take his kingdom, actually ''encouraging'' the [[FinalSolution Second]] [[WouldBeRudeToSayGenocide Kinslaying]] as a direct result of failing to get Lúthien. And yet, after all that, they are still unquestionably, absolutely, utterly against [[BigBad Morgoth]] while being every bit as vile as his servants.
18th Nov '15 4:25:20 AM Sikon
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* HoYay: Maedhros/Fingon, interpreting their story as a RescueRomance. And on the other side, Melian/Galadriel, which tends to be written as a TeacherStudentRomance.
12th Oct '15 9:20:36 AM MaiaMaiden
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* TokenEvilTeamMate: Celegorm, even more so than Curufin. Like his brother, Celegorm craved power over his oath, but was also a sadistic brute to the point where he was one of the few elves who ever tried to commit rape. And while Tolkien at least made a belated effort to give his brother a PetTheDog moment, he never tried to make Celegorm anything other than a thuggish monster.
** AlternativeCharacterInterpretation Steps in once more. The rape part of the above is heavily contested. Celegorm wanted to marry Lúthien, but it's not said if he wanted to force her to have sex with him against her will, or if he was simply arrogant enough to believe that Lúthien would come to see his merits. Also, "sadistic brute" and "thuggish monster" sound inappropriate descriptions of someone who was the personal friend of Oromë to the point Oromë gave him a precious gift, who had the friendship and loyalty of Huan all the way until the moment he tried to make Lúthien marry him, and who was the personal close friend of Aredhel to the point that she seeked out him rather than her own brother when she left Gondolin. Not to mention the man liked animals, which is a very positive personal trait in any character.
11th Oct '15 11:22:57 AM MaiaMaiden
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** AlternativeCharacterInterpretation Steps in once more. The rape part of the above is heavily contested. Celegorm wanted to marry Lúthien, but it's not said if he wanted to force her to have sex with him against her will, or if he was simply arrogant enough to believe that Lúthien would come to see his merits. Also, "sadistic brute" and "thuggish monster" sound inappropriate descriptions of someone who was the personal friend of Oromë to the point Oromë gave him a precious gift, who had the friendship and loyalty of Huan all until the moment he tried to make Lúthien marry him, and who was the personal close friend of Aredhel to the point that she seeked out him rather than her own brother when she left Gondolin. Not to mention the man liked animals, which is a very positive personal trait in any character.

to:

** AlternativeCharacterInterpretation Steps in once more. The rape part of the above is heavily contested. Celegorm wanted to marry Lúthien, but it's not said if he wanted to force her to have sex with him against her will, or if he was simply arrogant enough to believe that Lúthien would come to see his merits. Also, "sadistic brute" and "thuggish monster" sound inappropriate descriptions of someone who was the personal friend of Oromë to the point Oromë gave him a precious gift, who had the friendship and loyalty of Huan all the way until the moment he tried to make Lúthien marry him, and who was the personal close friend of Aredhel to the point that she seeked out him rather than her own brother when she left Gondolin. Not to mention the man liked animals, which is a very positive personal trait in any character.
11th Oct '15 11:12:44 AM MaiaMaiden
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Added DiffLines:

* TokenEvilTeamMate: Celegorm, even more so than Curufin. Like his brother, Celegorm craved power over his oath, but was also a sadistic brute to the point where he was one of the few elves who ever tried to commit rape. And while Tolkien at least made a belated effort to give his brother a PetTheDog moment, he never tried to make Celegorm anything other than a thuggish monster.
** AlternativeCharacterInterpretation Steps in once more. The rape part of the above is heavily contested. Celegorm wanted to marry Lúthien, but it's not said if he wanted to force her to have sex with him against her will, or if he was simply arrogant enough to believe that Lúthien would come to see his merits. Also, "sadistic brute" and "thuggish monster" sound inappropriate descriptions of someone who was the personal friend of Oromë to the point Oromë gave him a precious gift, who had the friendship and loyalty of Huan all until the moment he tried to make Lúthien marry him, and who was the personal close friend of Aredhel to the point that she seeked out him rather than her own brother when she left Gondolin. Not to mention the man liked animals, which is a very positive personal trait in any character.
1st Sep '15 2:00:17 PM HighCrate
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* DarknessInducedAudienceApathy: ''The Silmarillion'', in fleshing out the history of Middle-Earth, paints the picture of a world which is an irreparably broken shadow of its former glory that will continue to backslide until a Ragnarok-alike event in the far future. It's understandable if this colours your enjoyment of ''The Hobbit'' and ''The Lord of the Rings'' somewhat.

to:

* DarknessInducedAudienceApathy: ''The Silmarillion'', in fleshing out the history of Middle-Earth, paints the picture of a world which is an irreparably broken shadow of its former glory that will continue to backslide until a Ragnarok-alike event in the far future. It's understandable if this colours colors your enjoyment of ''The Hobbit'' and ''The Lord of the Rings'' somewhat.



* SatanIsGood: Although Tolkien wrote Morgoth to be an embodiment of all evil, there are a surprising number of Tolkien fans who see him as a [[TheParagonAlwaysRebels Symbol of Freedom]] at best, and a {{Fallen Hero}} at worst. (See DracoInLeatherPants above)



* {{Squick}}: What no one seems to mention - and admittedly the incest is rather distracting - is that Túrin essentially marries a ''child'' in a woman's body. Yes, Niënor was fully grown, but the Niniel personality specifically had to be taught to speak and understand 'as to an infant', and is only a few years old ''at best.''
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http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/article_history.php?article=YMMV.TheSilmarillion