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* JerkassWoobie: Mordred is an evil murderer and a conniving bastard who plots the downfall of Camelot, but White goes out of his way to show the reader the factors that made him that way, especially his abusive upbringing. Even the worst things he does have an air of tragedy, as he descended into evil due to Morgause and never got a chance to live a life of his own, instead plunging headfirst into revenge. He's heavily implied to have an OedipusComplex as well, which shows another sign of his massive mental instability. Overall, while Mordred is absolutely evil, the story takes great pains to emphasize that he's just as tragic as any other character.
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* JerkassWoobie: Mordred is an evil murderer and a conniving bastard who plots the downfall of Camelot, but White goes out of his way to show the reader the factors that made him that way, especially his abusive upbringing. Even the worst things he does have an air of tragedy, as he descended into evil due to Morgause and never got a chance to live a life of his own, instead plunging headfirst into revenge. He's heavily implied to have an OedipusComplex UsefulNotes/OedipusComplex as well, which shows another sign of his massive mental instability. Overall, while Mordred is absolutely evil, the story takes great pains to emphasize that he's just as tragic as any other character.
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* TheWoobie: Lancelot. He's fundamentally incapable of being comfortable in his own skin, to the point where he spends his entire childhood in the pursuit of becoming the ideal knight, at the cost of such basic skills as tree climbing. He wants nothing more than to be holy enough to perform miracles, but when he actually succeeds, the girl he performed the miracle on ''rapes'' him (which is awful enough, but it also means he's no longer a virgin and thus no longer able to do miracles, at least in his mind) and then later traps him in a miserable marriage, which complicates his already complicated relationship with Guenever. The only thing he really has -- his status as the greatest knight in the world -- is taken from him by his own son, who is basically everything Lancelot wants to be. He's just a heartbreaking character generally.
to:
* TheWoobie: Lancelot. He's fundamentally incapable of being comfortable in his own skin, to the point where he spends his entire childhood in the pursuit of becoming the ideal knight, at the cost of such basic skills as tree climbing. He wants nothing more than to be holy enough to perform miracles, but when he actually succeeds, the girl he performed the miracle on ''rapes'' him (which is awful enough, but it also means he's no longer a virgin and thus no longer able to do miracles, at least in his mind) and then later traps him in a miserable marriage, which complicates his already complicated relationship with Guenever. The only thing he really has -- his status as the greatest knight in the world -- is taken from him by his own son, a ChildByRape (''his'' rape), who is basically everything Lancelot wants to be. He's just a heartbreaking character generally.
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* ValuesResonance: Mordred's conception is portrayed in a particularly disturbing manner, with Arthur's seduction by his half-sister Morgause basically being presented as sexual assault by an older woman towards an inexperienced man, completely averting DoubleStandardRapeFemaleOnMale and not in any way being played for laughs. Arthur is treated sympathetically for this and not at all at fault, being taken advantage of. With growing awareness of the effects of sexual assault on men in the 21st century this comes across as a much more positive message.
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* ValuesResonance: ValuesResonance:
** Mordred's conception is portrayed in a particularly disturbing manner, with Arthur's seduction by his half-sister Morgause basically being presented as sexual assault by an older woman towards an inexperienced man, completely averting DoubleStandardRapeFemaleOnMale and not in any way being played for laughs. Arthur is treated sympathetically for this and not at all at fault, being taken advantage of. With growing awareness of the effects of sexual assault on men in the 21st century this comes across as a much more positivemessage.message.
** Similarly, Lancelot being plied with alcohol until he's barely functional and then manipulated into having sex with Elaine isn't really treated as his fault, and his depression and self-loathing afterwards leading him to make other toxic life choices are pretty relatable to other victims of sexual abuse and assault.
** Mordred's conception is portrayed in a particularly disturbing manner, with Arthur's seduction by his half-sister Morgause basically being presented as sexual assault by an older woman towards an inexperienced man, completely averting DoubleStandardRapeFemaleOnMale and not in any way being played for laughs. Arthur is treated sympathetically for this and not at all at fault, being taken advantage of. With growing awareness of the effects of sexual assault on men in the 21st century this comes across as a much more positive
** Similarly, Lancelot being plied with alcohol until he's barely functional and then manipulated into having sex with Elaine isn't really treated as his fault, and his depression and self-loathing afterwards leading him to make other toxic life choices are pretty relatable to other victims of sexual abuse and assault.
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* RomanticPlotTumor: The relationship between Lancelot and Guinevere in ''The Ill-Made Knight'' can annoy some readers.
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* RomanticPlotTumor: The relationship between Lancelot and Guinevere in ''The Ill-Made Knight'' can annoy some readers.readers, since it takes a story that had previously been about King Arthur and makes it almost entirely about the increasingly-toxic romance between his wife and one of his friends while still asking them to invest in its outcome, and it takes up more of the story of the largest part of the novel than, say, the quest for the Holy Grail or any of the other classic King Arthur adventures.
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* ValuesResonance: Mordred's conception is portrayed in a particularly disturbing manner, with Arthur's seduction by his half-sister Morgause basically being presented as sexual assault by an older women towards an inexperienced man, completely averting DoubleStandardRapeFemaleOnMale and not in any way being played for laughs. Arthur is treated sympathetically for this and not at all at fault, being taken advantage of. With growing awareness of the effects of sexual assault on men in the 21st century this comes across as a much more positive message.
to:
* ValuesResonance: Mordred's conception is portrayed in a particularly disturbing manner, with Arthur's seduction by his half-sister Morgause basically being presented as sexual assault by an older women woman towards an inexperienced man, completely averting DoubleStandardRapeFemaleOnMale and not in any way being played for laughs. Arthur is treated sympathetically for this and not at all at fault, being taken advantage of. With growing awareness of the effects of sexual assault on men in the 21st century this comes across as a much more positive message.
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* ValuesResonance: Mordred's conception is portrayed in a particularly disturbing manner, with Arthur's seduction by his half-sister Morgause basically being presented as sexual assault by an older women towards an inexperienced man, completely averting DoubleStandardRapeFemaleOnMale and not in any way being played for laughs. Arthur is treated sympathetically for this and not at all at fault, being taken advantage of. With growing awareness of the effects of sexual assault on men in the 21st century this comes across as a much more positive message.
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* ToughActToFollow: Although White wrote many books, none of them were as successful or as popular as ''The Once and Future King'', and with the exception of five: the original edition of ''The Sword in the Stone'', ''Literature/TheBookOfMerlyn'', ''The Goshawk'', ''Mistress Masham's Repose'', and White's English translation of a medieval Bestiary written in Latin, his other works are largely out of print and mostly forgotten.
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* ToughActToFollow: Although White wrote many books, none of them were as successful or as popular as ''The Once and Future King'', and with the exception of five: the five (the original edition of ''The Sword in the Stone'', ''Literature/TheBookOfMerlyn'', ''The Goshawk'', ''Mistress Masham's Repose'', and White's English translation of a medieval Bestiary written in Latin, Latin), his other works are largely out of print and mostly forgotten.
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* JerkassWoobie: Mordred is an evil murderer and a conniving bastard who plots the downfall of Camelot, but White goes out of his way to show the reader the factors that made him that way, especially his abusive upbringing. Even the worst things he does have an air of tragedy, as he descended into evil due to Morgause and never got a chance to live a life of his own, instead plunging headfirst into revenge. He's heavily implied to have an OedipusComplex as well, which shows another sign of his massive mental instability. Overall, while Mordred is absolutely evil, the story takes great pains to emphasize that he's just as tragic as any other character.
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** Gareth's death. Gawaine ''and'' Lancelot begin talking about what he was like, and poor Lancelot not only loved Gareth, but didn't even remember killing him.
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** The narration describes Mordred as practically puppeted from beyond the grave by his abusive mother. He never had a choice in life, and while twisted and evil with no attempt to be good or real conscience, it's clear that Mordred is too heavily influenced by his mother's upbringing to be saved, leading to Camelot's downfall. Similarly, after Lancelot's mercy toward him is brought to light before his siblings, Mordred breaks down, screaming that he wished Lancelot ''had'' killed him so he didn't seem to be a coward.
** Gareth's death. Gawaine ''and'' Lancelot begin talking about what he was like, and poor Lancelot not only loved Gareth, but didn't even remember killing him. The worst part is that it's implied Lancelot ''didn't'' kill Gareth at all, with Mordred being responsible for the deed, yet he comes to believe he does and it brings the final conflict between Lancelot and Gawaine to its peak.
** Gareth's death. Gawaine ''and'' Lancelot begin talking about what he was like, and poor Lancelot not only loved Gareth, but didn't even remember killing him. The worst part is that it's implied Lancelot ''didn't'' kill Gareth at all, with Mordred being responsible for the deed, yet he comes to believe he does and it brings the final conflict between Lancelot and Gawaine to its peak.
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* AngstDissonance: After a while, Lancelot's angst can start to get ''really'' annoying.
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* HoYay: A lot of emphasis is put on how much Lancelot and Arthur "love" each other. In fact, when describing their relationship, the book almost ''exclusively'' uses the word love.
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** In his discussion with Arthur and Kay regarding just war, Merlyn provides a defense of imperialism, stating that it is wrong for people to revolt against a conqueror, even if the conqueror is oppressing them. Especially when juxtaposed with his opposition to aggressive war, this defense of empire would not necessarily sit well with modern readers. Indeed it comes off rather [[{{Hypocrite}} hypocritical]] given that White spent [=WW2=] in [[WorldWarII/TheNeutralNations neutral Ireland]], which was just such a nation.
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** In his discussion with Arthur and Kay regarding just war, Merlyn provides a defense of imperialism, stating that it is wrong for people to revolt against a conqueror, even if the conqueror is oppressing them. Especially when juxtaposed with his opposition to aggressive war, this defense of empire would not necessarily sit well with modern readers. Indeed it comes off rather [[{{Hypocrite}} hypocritical]] given that White spent decided to spend [=WW2=] in [[WorldWarII/TheNeutralNations neutral Ireland]], which was just such a nation.
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** In his discussion with Arthur and Kay regarding just war, Merlyn provides a defense of imperialism, stating that it is wrong for people to revolt against a conqueror, even if the conqueror is oppressing them. Especially when juxtaposed with his opposition to aggressive war, this defense of empire would not necessarily sit well with modern readers. Indeed it comes off rather [[{{Hypocrite}} hypocritical]] given that White spent WW2 in [[WorldWarII/TheNeutralNations neutral Ireland]], which was just such a nation.
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** In his discussion with Arthur and Kay regarding just war, Merlyn provides a defense of imperialism, stating that it is wrong for people to revolt against a conqueror, even if the conqueror is oppressing them. Especially when juxtaposed with his opposition to aggressive war, this defense of empire would not necessarily sit well with modern readers. Indeed it comes off rather [[{{Hypocrite}} hypocritical]] given that White spent WW2 [=WW2=] in [[WorldWarII/TheNeutralNations neutral Ireland]], which was just such a nation.
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** In his discussion with Arthur and Kay regarding just war, Merlyn provides a defense of imperialism, stating that it is wrong for people to revolt against a conqueror, even if the conqueror is oppressing them. Especially when juxtaposed with his opposition to aggressive war, this defense of empire would not necessarily sit well with modern readers.
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** In his discussion with Arthur and Kay regarding just war, Merlyn provides a defense of imperialism, stating that it is wrong for people to revolt against a conqueror, even if the conqueror is oppressing them. Especially when juxtaposed with his opposition to aggressive war, this defense of empire would not necessarily sit well with modern readers. Indeed it comes off rather [[{{Hypocrite}} hypocritical]] given that White spent WW2 in [[WorldWarII/TheNeutralNations neutral Ireland]], which was just such a nation.
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* TearJerker: One of, if not the greatest Tear Jerkers of all literature. The ending, where it all goes down, and it's all so inevitable, and the last page, never fails to bring tears.
** Gareth's death. The tears came when Gawaine ''and'' Lancelot began talking about what he was like, and poor Lancelot not only loved Gareth, but didn't even remember killing him.
** Gareth's death. The tears came when Gawaine ''and'' Lancelot began talking about what he was like, and poor Lancelot not only loved Gareth, but didn't even remember killing him.
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* TearJerker: TearJerker:
** One of, if not the greatest Tear Jerkers of all literature. The ending, where it all goes down, and it's all soinevitable, and the last page, never fails to bring tears.
inevitable.
** Gareth's death.The tears came when Gawaine ''and'' Lancelot began begin talking about what he was like, and poor Lancelot not only loved Gareth, but didn't even remember killing him.
** One of, if not the greatest Tear Jerkers of all literature. The ending, where it all goes down, and it's all so
** Gareth's death.
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* ValuesDissonance: In his discussion with Arthur and Kay regarding just war, Merlyn provides a defense of imperialism, stating that it is wrong for people to revolt against a conqueror, even if the conqueror is oppressing them. Especially when juxtaposed with his opposition to aggressive war, this defense of empire would not necessarily sit well with modern readers.
** Not to mention, this version doesn't omit or excuse the detail of the legend that Merlyn helped Uther Pendragon to rape Igraine, resulting in Arthur's birth.
** Not to mention, this version doesn't omit or excuse the detail of the legend that Merlyn helped Uther Pendragon to rape Igraine, resulting in Arthur's birth.
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* ValuesDissonance: ValuesDissonance:
** In his discussion with Arthur and Kay regarding just war, Merlyn provides a defense of imperialism, stating that it is wrong for people to revolt against a conqueror, even if the conqueror is oppressing them. Especially when juxtaposed with his opposition to aggressive war, this defense of empire would not necessarily sit well with modern readers.
**Not to mention, this This version doesn't omit or excuse the detail of the legend that Merlyn helped Uther Pendragon to rape Igraine, resulting in Arthur's birth.
** In his discussion with Arthur and Kay regarding just war, Merlyn provides a defense of imperialism, stating that it is wrong for people to revolt against a conqueror, even if the conqueror is oppressing them. Especially when juxtaposed with his opposition to aggressive war, this defense of empire would not necessarily sit well with modern readers.
**
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* ToughActToFollow: Although White wrote many books, none of them were as successful or as popular as ''The Once and Future King'', and with the exception of five: the original edition of ''The Sword in the Stone'', ''Literature/TheBookOfMerlyn'', ''The Goshawk'', ''Mistress Masham's Repose'', and White's English translation of a medevial Bestiary written in Latin, his other works are largely out of print and mostly forgotten.
to:
* ToughActToFollow: Although White wrote many books, none of them were as successful or as popular as ''The Once and Future King'', and with the exception of five: the original edition of ''The Sword in the Stone'', ''Literature/TheBookOfMerlyn'', ''The Goshawk'', ''Mistress Masham's Repose'', and White's English translation of a medevial medieval Bestiary written in Latin, his other works are largely out of print and mostly forgotten.
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* AlternateCharacterInterpretation: Morgause and her Orkney Clan consider Merlyn to be a "wicked necromancer" for the part he played in Cornwall's death and Uther's subsequent marriage to Igraine.
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* AlternateCharacterInterpretation: AlternativeCharacterInterpretation: Morgause and her Orkney Clan consider Merlyn to be a "wicked necromancer" for the part he played in Cornwall's death and Uther's subsequent marriage to Igraine.
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* MagnumOpus: Generally considered T.H. White's masterpiece, and certainly his most popular book.
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* TheWoobie: Lancelot. He's fundamentally incapable of being comfortable in his own skin, to the point where he spends his entire childhood in the pursuit of becoming the ideal knight, at the cost of such basic skills as tree climbing. He wants nothing more than to be holy enough to perform miracles, but when he actually succeeds, the girl he performed the miracle on ''rapes'' him (which is awful enough, but it also means he's no longer a virgin and thus no longer able to do miracles, at least in his mind) and then later traps him in a miserable marriage, which complicates his already complicated relationship with Guenever. The only thing he really has -- his status as the greatest knight in the world -- is taken from him by his own son, who is basically everything Lancelot wants to be. He's just a heartbreaking character generally.
to:
* TheWoobie: Lancelot. He's fundamentally incapable of being comfortable in his own skin, to the point where he spends his entire childhood in the pursuit of becoming the ideal knight, at the cost of such basic skills as tree climbing. He wants nothing more than to be holy enough to perform miracles, but when he actually succeeds, the girl he performed the miracle on ''rapes'' him (which is awful enough, but it also means he's no longer a virgin and thus no longer able to do miracles, at least in his mind) and then later traps him in a miserable marriage, which complicates his already complicated relationship with Guenever. The only thing he really has -- his status as the greatest knight in the world -- is taken from him by his own son, who is basically everything Lancelot wants to be. He's just a heartbreaking character generally.generally.
----
----
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** Not to mention, this version doesn't omit or excuse the detail of the legend that Merlyn helped Uther Pendragon to rape Igraine, resulting in Arthur's birth.
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* ToughActToFollow: Although White wrote many books, none of them were as successful or as popular as ''The Once and Future King'', and with the exception of five: the original edition of ''The Sword in the Stone'', ''Literature:TheBookOfMerlyn'', ''The Goshawk'', ''Mistress Masham's Repose'', and White's English translation of a medevial Bestiary written in Latin, his other works are largely out of print and mostly forgotten.
to:
* ToughActToFollow: Although White wrote many books, none of them were as successful or as popular as ''The Once and Future King'', and with the exception of five: the original edition of ''The Sword in the Stone'', ''Literature:TheBookOfMerlyn'', ''Literature/TheBookOfMerlyn'', ''The Goshawk'', ''Mistress Masham's Repose'', and White's English translation of a medevial Bestiary written in Latin, his other works are largely out of print and mostly forgotten.
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None
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* ValuesDissonance: In his discussion with Arthur and Kay regarding just war, Merlyn provides a defense of imperialism, stating that it is wrong for people to revolt against a conqueror, even if the conqueror is oppressing them. Especially juxtaposed with his opposition to aggressive war, this concept would not necessarily sit well with modern readers.
to:
* ValuesDissonance: In his discussion with Arthur and Kay regarding just war, Merlyn provides a defense of imperialism, stating that it is wrong for people to revolt against a conqueror, even if the conqueror is oppressing them. Especially when juxtaposed with his opposition to aggressive war, this concept defense of empire would not necessarily sit well with modern readers.
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None
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* ValuesDissonance: In his discussion with Arthur and Kay regarding just war, Merlyn provides a defense of imperialism, stating that it is wrong for people to revolt against a conqueror, even if the conqueror is oppressing them. Especially juxtaposed with his opposition to aggressive war, this concept would not necessarily sit well with modern readers.
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None
Changed line(s) 6 (click to see context) from:
* ToughActToFollow: Although White wrote many books, none of them were as successful or as popular as ''The Once and Future King'', and with the exception of five: the original edition of ''The Sword in the Stone'', ''Literature:The Book of Merlyn'', ''The Goshawk'', ''Mistress Masham's Repose'', and White's English translation of a medevial Bestiary written in Latin, his other works are largely out of print and mostly forgotten.
to:
* ToughActToFollow: Although White wrote many books, none of them were as successful or as popular as ''The Once and Future King'', and with the exception of five: the original edition of ''The Sword in the Stone'', ''Literature:The Book of Merlyn'', ''Literature:TheBookOfMerlyn'', ''The Goshawk'', ''Mistress Masham's Repose'', and White's English translation of a medevial Bestiary written in Latin, his other works are largely out of print and mostly forgotten.
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None
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* AlternateCharacterInterpretation: Morgause and her Orkney Clan consider Merlyn to be a "wicked necromancer" for the part he played in Cornwall's death and Uther's subsequent marriage to Igraine.
Changed line(s) 5 (click to see context) from:
* ToughActToFollow: Although White wrote many books, none of them were as successful or as popular as ''The Once and Future King'', and with the exception of five: the original edition of ''The Sword in the Stone'', ''The Book of Merlyn'', ''The Goshawk'', ''Mistress Masham's Repose'', and White's English translation of a medevial Bestiary written in Latin, his other works are largely out of print and mostly forgotten.
to:
* ToughActToFollow: Although White wrote many books, none of them were as successful or as popular as ''The Once and Future King'', and with the exception of five: the original edition of ''The Sword in the Stone'', ''The ''Literature:The Book of Merlyn'', ''The Goshawk'', ''Mistress Masham's Repose'', and White's English translation of a medevial Bestiary written in Latin, his other works are largely out of print and mostly forgotten.
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YMMV migration
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* MagnumOpus: Generally considered T.H. White's masterpiece, and certainly his most popular book.
Added DiffLines:
* ToughActToFollow: Although White wrote many books, none of them were as successful or as popular as ''The Once and Future King'', and with the exception of five: the original edition of ''The Sword in the Stone'', ''The Book of Merlyn'', ''The Goshawk'', ''Mistress Masham's Repose'', and White's English translation of a medevial Bestiary written in Latin, his other works are largely out of print and mostly forgotten.
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Removed a \"This Troper\"
Changed line(s) 3 (click to see context) from:
** For this Troper personally it was Gareth's death; his death wasn't so bad. The tears came when Gawaine ''and'' Lancelot began talking about what he was like, and poor Lancelot not only loved Gareth, but didn't even remember killing him.
to:
** For this Troper personally it was Gareth's death; his death wasn't so bad. death. The tears came when Gawaine ''and'' Lancelot began talking about what he was like, and poor Lancelot not only loved Gareth, but didn't even remember killing him.
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None
Changed line(s) 4 (click to see context) from:
* TheWoobie: Lancelot. He's fundamentally incapable of being comfortable in his own skin, to the point where he spends his entire childhood in the pursuit of becoming the ideal knight, at the cost of such basic skills as tree climbing. He wants nothing more than to be holy enough to perform miracles, but when he actually succeeds, the girl he performed the miracle on ''rapes'' him (meaning he's no longer a virgin and thus no longer able to do miracles, at least in his mind) and then later traps him in a miserable marriage, which complicates his already complicated relationship with Guenever. The only thing he really has -- his status as the greatest knight in the world -- is taken from him by his own son, who is basically everything Lancelot wants to be. He's just a heartbreaking character generally.
to:
* TheWoobie: Lancelot. He's fundamentally incapable of being comfortable in his own skin, to the point where he spends his entire childhood in the pursuit of becoming the ideal knight, at the cost of such basic skills as tree climbing. He wants nothing more than to be holy enough to perform miracles, but when he actually succeeds, the girl he performed the miracle on ''rapes'' him (meaning (which is awful enough, but it also means he's no longer a virgin and thus no longer able to do miracles, at least in his mind) and then later traps him in a miserable marriage, which complicates his already complicated relationship with Guenever. The only thing he really has -- his status as the greatest knight in the world -- is taken from him by his own son, who is basically everything Lancelot wants to be. He's just a heartbreaking character generally.
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None
Changed line(s) 3 (click to see context) from:
** For this Troper personally it was Gareth's death; his death wasn't so bad. The tears came when Gawaine ''and'' Lancelot began talking about what he was like, and poor Lancelot not only loved Gareth, but didn't even remember killing him.
to:
** For this Troper personally it was Gareth's death; his death wasn't so bad. The tears came when Gawaine ''and'' Lancelot began talking about what he was like, and poor Lancelot not only loved Gareth, but didn't even remember killing him.him.
* TheWoobie: Lancelot. He's fundamentally incapable of being comfortable in his own skin, to the point where he spends his entire childhood in the pursuit of becoming the ideal knight, at the cost of such basic skills as tree climbing. He wants nothing more than to be holy enough to perform miracles, but when he actually succeeds, the girl he performed the miracle on ''rapes'' him (meaning he's no longer a virgin and thus no longer able to do miracles, at least in his mind) and then later traps him in a miserable marriage, which complicates his already complicated relationship with Guenever. The only thing he really has -- his status as the greatest knight in the world -- is taken from him by his own son, who is basically everything Lancelot wants to be. He's just a heartbreaking character generally.
* TheWoobie: Lancelot. He's fundamentally incapable of being comfortable in his own skin, to the point where he spends his entire childhood in the pursuit of becoming the ideal knight, at the cost of such basic skills as tree climbing. He wants nothing more than to be holy enough to perform miracles, but when he actually succeeds, the girl he performed the miracle on ''rapes'' him (meaning he's no longer a virgin and thus no longer able to do miracles, at least in his mind) and then later traps him in a miserable marriage, which complicates his already complicated relationship with Guenever. The only thing he really has -- his status as the greatest knight in the world -- is taken from him by his own son, who is basically everything Lancelot wants to be. He's just a heartbreaking character generally.
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None
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* TearJerker: One of, if not the greatest Tear Jerkers of all literature. The ending, where it all goes down, and it's all so inevitable, and the last page, never fails to bring tears.
to:
* TearJerker: One of, if not the greatest Tear Jerkers of all literature. The ending, where it all goes down, and it's all so inevitable, and the last page, never fails to bring tears.tears.
**For this Troper personally it was Gareth's death; his death wasn't so bad. The tears came when Gawaine ''and'' Lancelot began talking about what he was like, and poor Lancelot not only loved Gareth, but didn't even remember killing him.
**For this Troper personally it was Gareth's death; his death wasn't so bad. The tears came when Gawaine ''and'' Lancelot began talking about what he was like, and poor Lancelot not only loved Gareth, but didn't even remember killing him.