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-->'''Jud:''' And now they know their friend is gone for good\\

to:

-->'''Jud:''' --->'''Jud:''' And now they know their friend is gone for good\\
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* FoeYay: Between Curly and Jud in the 2019 revival. To quote Damon Daunno, who played Curly:

to:

* FoeYay: FoeYayShipping: Between Curly and Jud in the 2019 revival. To quote Damon Daunno, who played Curly:
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* NeverLiveItDown: Curly trying to get Jud to commit suicide. He's otherwise presented in a positive, romantic, and heroic light, but some viewers just can't look past such a vile act and this sympathize with more with the villainous Jud instead.

to:

* NeverLiveItDown: Curly trying to get Jud to commit suicide. He's otherwise presented in a positive, romantic, and heroic light, but some viewers just can't look past such a vile act and this thus sympathize with more with the villainous Jud instead.
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* JerkassWoobie: Jud Fry's sympathy varies between productions, but even his most villainous portrayals are pitiful. He's indeed a creepy stalker to Laurie, but he lives an abysmally lonely life and is hated by everyone around him. That hatred may be justified since he's possibly already got blood on his hands and may be planning to rape Laurie. But even such wicked portrayals are easy to feel sorry for when Curly feigns friendship with the loner whilst trying to convince him he should kill himself just because Jud asked Laurie out.


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* NeverLiveItDown: Curly trying to get Jud to commit suicide. He's otherwise presented in a positive, romantic, and heroic light, but some viewers just can't look past such a vile act and this sympathize with more with the villainous Jud instead.
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Added DiffLines:

* BaseBreakingCharacter: Curly, with the divide being whether or not he's charming and likable enough to forgive his deplorable initial treatment of Jud.
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** In the 1999 filmed stage recording, Hugh Jackman plays Curly as letting himself warm up to Jud Fry after "Poor Jud is dead". But when Jud brings up the story of the girl, that's when Curly puts two-and-two together and lets himself get suspicious again.

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** In the 1999 filmed stage recording, Hugh Jackman plays Curly as letting himself warm up to Jud Fry after "Poor "Pore Jud is dead".Is Daid," as if Curly realizes that Jud may not be such a bad person after all. But when Jud brings up the story of the girl, that's when Curly puts two-and-two together and lets himself get suspicious again.
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Added DiffLines:

** In the 1999 filmed stage recording, Hugh Jackman plays Curly as letting himself warm up to Jud Fry after "Poor Jud is dead". But when Jud brings up the story of the girl, that's when Curly puts two-and-two together and lets himself get suspicious again.
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None


* DracoInLeatherPants: Happens to Jud more and more as time goes on (with a healthy dose of RonTheDeathEater for Curly). It pretty much all hinges around "Pore Jud Is Daid", a scene where Curly potentially tries to convince Jud that hanging himself would be a good idea. Some people take it so far as to claim that ''Jud'' is in fact the hero of the story and Curly is the ''villain''. Of course, this ignores Jud's multiple murder attempts on Curly (especially in the movie, where he tries to kill him ''and'' Laurey), the implication that he'd be willing to rape/kill Laurie if she rejects him and the fact that he's been stalking Laurie for at least two years, while Curly's bad behavior is confined to that one scene.

to:

* DracoInLeatherPants: Happens to Jud more and more as time goes on (with a healthy dose of RonTheDeathEater for Curly). It pretty much all mainly hinges around "Pore Jud Is Daid", a scene where Curly potentially tries to convince Jud that hanging himself would be a good idea.idea, and the town's general exclusion of him. Some people take it so far as to claim that ''Jud'' is in fact the hero of the story and Curly is the ''villain''. Of course, this ignores Jud's multiple murder attempts on Curly (especially in the movie, where he tries to kill him ''and'' Laurey), the implication that he'd be willing to rape/kill Laurie if she rejects him and the fact that he's been stalking Laurie for at least two years, while Curly's bad behavior is confined to that one scene.

Changed: 704

Removed: 647

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* DracoInLeatherPants:
** Happens to Jud more and more as time goes on (with a healthy dose of RonTheDeathEater for Curly). It pretty much all hinges around "Pore Jud Is Daid", a scene where Curly potentially tries to convince Jud that hanging himself would be a good idea. Some people take it so far as to claim that ''Jud'' is in fact the hero of the story and Curly is the ''villain''. Of course, this ignores Jud's multiple murder attempts on Curly (in the movie), the implication that he'd be willing to rape/kill Laurie if she rejects him and the fact that he's been stalking Laurie for at least two years, while Curly's bad behavior is confined to that one scene.

to:

* DracoInLeatherPants:
**
DracoInLeatherPants: Happens to Jud more and more as time goes on (with a healthy dose of RonTheDeathEater for Curly). It pretty much all hinges around "Pore Jud Is Daid", a scene where Curly potentially tries to convince Jud that hanging himself would be a good idea. Some people take it so far as to claim that ''Jud'' is in fact the hero of the story and Curly is the ''villain''. Of course, this ignores Jud's multiple murder attempts on Curly (in (especially in the movie), movie, where he tries to kill him ''and'' Laurey), the implication that he'd be willing to rape/kill Laurie if she rejects him and the fact that he's been stalking Laurie for at least two years, while Curly's bad behavior is confined to that one scene.



-->'''Jud:''' But now they know their friend is gone for good\\

to:

-->'''Jud:''' But And now they know their friend is gone for good\\

Added: 85

Changed: 109

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** The 2019 revival staged "Pore Jud is Daid" almost completely in the dark, with Curly getting ''extremely'' close to Jud's personal space while monitors in the back wall showed the actors' expressions in harsh, green-tinged light. Combined with the lyrics and mood of the song, which was stripped down to just a guitar and vocals, the effect on audiences was very unsettling, especially on the verse where Curly says they'll use his corpse as a substitute for ice in the summer.
** Even in traditional productions, "Pore Jud Is Daid" is preceded by Curly entering Jud's smokehouse uninvited and joking about Jud using a rope to hang himself, with the song itself containing lots of backhanded compliments about the mourning people will do. Jud eventually joins in on the song and is sure folks will regret having treated him poorly once he's gone.

to:

** The 2019 revival staged "Pore Jud is Is Daid" almost completely in the dark, with Curly getting ''extremely'' close to Jud's personal space while monitors in the back wall showed the actors' expressions in harsh, green-tinged light. Combined with the lyrics and mood of the song, which was stripped down to just a guitar and vocals, the effect on audiences was very unsettling, especially on the verse where Curly says they'll use his corpse as a substitute for ice in the summer.
** Even in traditional productions, "Pore Jud Is Daid" is preceded by Curly entering Jud's smokehouse uninvited and joking about Jud using a rope to hang himself, with the song itself containing lots of backhanded compliments about the mourning people will do. Jud eventually joins in on the song and is sure folks will regret having treated him poorly once he's gone.gone, and Curly adds onto it with a line that shows ''exactly'' what he thinks of his rival's prospective death.
-->'''Jud:''' But now they know their friend is gone for good\\
'''Curly:''' ''Good.''

Added: 864

Changed: 18

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** The DarkerAndEdgier 2019 Broadway revival divided audiences, with many believing it was a brilliant reworking of the show that gave it a new feel without changing a single word. Others thought it felt like it was trying to weird and dark just for the sake of being weird and dark.

to:

** The DarkerAndEdgier 2019 Broadway revival divided audiences, with many believing it was a brilliant reworking of the show that gave it a new feel without changing a single word. Others thought it felt like it was trying to be weird and dark just for the sake of being weird and dark.



** Happens to Jud more and more as time goes on (with a healthy dose of RonTheDeathEater for Curly). It pretty much all hinges around "Pore Jud Is Daid", a scene where Curly potentially tries to convince Jud that hanging himself would be a good idea. Some people take it so far as to claim that ''Jud'' is in fact the hero of the story and Curly is the ''villain''. Of course, this ignores Jud's multiple murder attempts on Curly, the implication that he'd be willing to rape/kill Laurie if she rejects him and the fact that he's been stalking Laurie for at least two years, while Curly's bad behavior is confined to that one scene.

to:

** Happens to Jud more and more as time goes on (with a healthy dose of RonTheDeathEater for Curly). It pretty much all hinges around "Pore Jud Is Daid", a scene where Curly potentially tries to convince Jud that hanging himself would be a good idea. Some people take it so far as to claim that ''Jud'' is in fact the hero of the story and Curly is the ''villain''. Of course, this ignores Jud's multiple murder attempts on Curly, Curly (in the movie), the implication that he'd be willing to rape/kill Laurie if she rejects him and the fact that he's been stalking Laurie for at least two years, while Curly's bad behavior is confined to that one scene.


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* NightmareFuel:
** The 2019 revival staged "Pore Jud is Daid" almost completely in the dark, with Curly getting ''extremely'' close to Jud's personal space while monitors in the back wall showed the actors' expressions in harsh, green-tinged light. Combined with the lyrics and mood of the song, which was stripped down to just a guitar and vocals, the effect on audiences was very unsettling, especially on the verse where Curly says they'll use his corpse as a substitute for ice in the summer.
** Even in traditional productions, "Pore Jud Is Daid" is preceded by Curly entering Jud's smokehouse uninvited and joking about Jud using a rope to hang himself, with the song itself containing lots of backhanded compliments about the mourning people will do. Jud eventually joins in on the song and is sure folks will regret having treated him poorly once he's gone.
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None


** Could Jud be part Native American? It seems odd that in Oklahoma at this time period we don't see ANY Indians. In the source material, ''Green Grow the Lilacs'', Jud's counterpart Jeeter Fry is based on Jetar Davis, a half-Cherokee contemporary of playwright Lynn Riggs.

to:

** Could Jud be part Native American? It seems odd that in Oklahoma at this time period we don't see ANY Indians.Natives. In the source material, ''Green Grow the Lilacs'', Jud's counterpart Jeeter Fry is based on Jetar Davis, a half-Cherokee contemporary of playwright Lynn Riggs.
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None


** One production managed to change how we view the entire cast and story by performing the musical completely normally, but with the only change being Jud is played by the only black man in the cast.

to:

** One production managed to change how we view the entire cast and story by performing the musical completely normally, but normally... with the only change being that Jud is played by the only black man in the cast.



** The 2019 Broadway revival has an added racial element in that Laurey is a Black woman navigating two white men's feelings for her, and a farmhand, played by a Black actor, is noticeably shut down by Aunt Eller.

to:

** The 2019 Broadway revival has an added racial element in that Laurey is a Black black woman navigating two white men's feelings for her, and a farmhand, played by a Black black actor, is noticeably shut down by Aunt Eller.



* EnsembleDarkhorse: [[HandicappedBadass Ali Stroker as Ado Annie]]. While the production itself caused a divided response ([[BrokenBase discussed above]]), the one thing that everyone agrees on is that Stroker was excellent, not just giving a great performance despite her disability, but actually using it to her advantage. She ended up winning the Tony, being the first performer in a wheelchair to ever receive this honor (or be nominated for that matter). Even people who disliked the production were happy for Stroker and noted that her work and recognition was a great breakthrough for handicapped actors and actresses. All this is particularly impressive given Ado Annie, while a fun part, is rarely regarded as the standout in the cast.

to:

* EnsembleDarkhorse: [[HandicappedBadass Ali Stroker as Ado Annie]].Annie]] in the 2019 Broadway revival. While the production itself caused a divided response ([[BrokenBase discussed above]]), the one thing that everyone agrees on is that Stroker was excellent, not just giving a great performance despite her disability, but actually using it to her advantage. She ended up winning the Tony, being the first performer in a wheelchair to ever receive this honor (or be nominated for that matter). Even people who disliked the production were happy for Stroker and noted that her work and recognition was a great breakthrough for handicapped actors and actresses. All this is particularly impressive given Ado Annie, while a fun part, is rarely regarded as the standout in the cast.
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None


* EnsembleDarkhorse: [[HandicappedBadass Ali Stroker as Ado Annie]]. While the production itself caused a divided response ([[BrokenBase discussed above]]), the one thing that everyone agrees on is that Stroker was excellent, not just giving a great performance despite her disability, but actually using it to her advantage. She ended up winning the Tony, being the first performer in a wheelchair to ever receive this honor (or be nominated for that matter). Even people who disliked the production were happy for Stroker and noted that her work and recognition was a great breakthrough for handicapped actors and actresses.

to:

* EnsembleDarkhorse: [[HandicappedBadass Ali Stroker as Ado Annie]]. While the production itself caused a divided response ([[BrokenBase discussed above]]), the one thing that everyone agrees on is that Stroker was excellent, not just giving a great performance despite her disability, but actually using it to her advantage. She ended up winning the Tony, being the first performer in a wheelchair to ever receive this honor (or be nominated for that matter). Even people who disliked the production were happy for Stroker and noted that her work and recognition was a great breakthrough for handicapped actors and actresses. All this is particularly impressive given Ado Annie, while a fun part, is rarely regarded as the standout in the cast.
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None


** Could Jud be part Native American? It seems odd that in Oklahoma at this time period we don't see ANY Indians. In the source material, ''Green Grow the Lilacs'', Jud's counterpart Jeeter Fry is based on Jetar Davis, a half-Cherokee contemporary of playwright Jetar Davis.

to:

** Could Jud be part Native American? It seems odd that in Oklahoma at this time period we don't see ANY Indians. In the source material, ''Green Grow the Lilacs'', Jud's counterpart Jeeter Fry is based on Jetar Davis, a half-Cherokee contemporary of playwright Jetar Davis.Lynn Riggs.
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None


** Could Jud be part Native American? It seems odd that in Oklahoma at this time period we don't see ANY Indians. In the source material, ''Green Grow the Lilacs'', Jud's character is based on a Jetar Davis, a half-Cherokee contemporary of playwright Lynn Riggs.

to:

** Could Jud be part Native American? It seems odd that in Oklahoma at this time period we don't see ANY Indians. In the source material, ''Green Grow the Lilacs'', Jud's character counterpart Jeeter Fry is based on a Jetar Davis, a half-Cherokee contemporary of playwright Lynn Riggs.Jetar Davis.
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None


** Could Jud be part Native American? It seems odd that in Oklahoma at this time period we don't see ANY Indians.

to:

** Could Jud be part Native American? It seems odd that in Oklahoma at this time period we don't see ANY Indians. In the source material, ''Green Grow the Lilacs'', Jud's character is based on a Jetar Davis, a half-Cherokee contemporary of playwright Lynn Riggs.
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None

Added DiffLines:

** The 2019 Broadway revival has an added racial element in that Laurey is a Black woman navigating two white men's feelings for her, and a farmhand, played by a Black actor, is noticeably shut down by Aunt Eller.
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None


* EnsembleDarkhorse:[[HandicappedBadass Ali Stroker as Ado Annie]]. While the production itself caused a divided response ([[BrokenBase discussed above]]), the one thing that everyone agrees on is that Stroker was excellent, not just giving a great performance despite her disability, but actually using it to her advantage. She ended up winning the Tony, being the first performer in a wheelchair to ever receive this honor (or be nominated for that matter). Even people who disliked the production were happy for Stroker and noted that her work and recognition was a great breakthrough for handicapped actors and actresses.

to:

* EnsembleDarkhorse:[[HandicappedBadass EnsembleDarkhorse: [[HandicappedBadass Ali Stroker as Ado Annie]]. While the production itself caused a divided response ([[BrokenBase discussed above]]), the one thing that everyone agrees on is that Stroker was excellent, not just giving a great performance despite her disability, but actually using it to her advantage. She ended up winning the Tony, being the first performer in a wheelchair to ever receive this honor (or be nominated for that matter). Even people who disliked the production were happy for Stroker and noted that her work and recognition was a great breakthrough for handicapped actors and actresses.
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zero context example, not approved by the MB thread


* MagnificentBastard: Ali Hakim, in a mostly harmless way.
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** [[HandicappedBadass Ali Stroker as Ado Annie]]. While the production itself caused a divided response ([[BrokenBase discussed above]]), the one thing that everyone agrees on is that Stroker was excellent, not just giving a great performance despite her disability, but actually using it to her advantage. She ended up winning the Tony, being the first performer in a wheelchair to ever receive this honor (or be nominated for that matter). Even people who disliked the production were happy for Stroker and noted that her work and recognition was a great breakthrough for handicapped actors and actresses.

to:

** [[HandicappedBadass * EnsembleDarkhorse:[[HandicappedBadass Ali Stroker as Ado Annie]]. While the production itself caused a divided response ([[BrokenBase discussed above]]), the one thing that everyone agrees on is that Stroker was excellent, not just giving a great performance despite her disability, but actually using it to her advantage. She ended up winning the Tony, being the first performer in a wheelchair to ever receive this honor (or be nominated for that matter). Even people who disliked the production were happy for Stroker and noted that her work and recognition was a great breakthrough for handicapped actors and actresses.

Added: 483

Changed: 1153

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* AlternativeCharacterInterpretation: One production managed to change how we view the entire cast and story by performing the musical completely normally, but with the only change being Jud is played by the only black man in the cast.

to:

* AlternativeCharacterInterpretation: AlternativeCharacterInterpretation:
**
One production managed to change how we view the entire cast and story by performing the musical completely normally, but with the only change being Jud is played by the only black man in the cast.



* BrokenBase: The movie adaptation has one version filmed in 65mm TODD-AO, and one in 35mm [=CinemaScope=]. They present differing takes of each scene, leaving viewers torn over which version provides superior performances. Telecasts and home video releases before the 1994 restoration of the TODD-AO negative used the [=CinemaScope=] version, while more recent home video releases offer a choice between TODD-AO and [=CinemaScope=].
** [[DarkerAndEdgier The 2019 Broadway revival]] divided audiences, with many believing it was a brilliant reworking of the show that gave it a new feel without changing a single word. Others thought it felt like it was trying to weird and dark just for the sake of being weird and dark.

to:

* BrokenBase: BrokenBase:
**
The movie adaptation has one version filmed in 65mm TODD-AO, and one in 35mm [=CinemaScope=]. They present differing takes of each scene, leaving viewers torn over which version provides superior performances. Telecasts and home video releases before the 1994 restoration of the TODD-AO negative used the [=CinemaScope=] version, while more recent home video releases offer a choice between TODD-AO and [=CinemaScope=].
** [[DarkerAndEdgier The DarkerAndEdgier 2019 Broadway revival]] revival divided audiences, with many believing it was a brilliant reworking of the show that gave it a new feel without changing a single word. Others thought it felt like it was trying to weird and dark just for the sake of being weird and dark.
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
Jesus tap-dancing Christ, what kind of indentation was that?


* DracoInLeatherPants: Happens to Jud more and more as time goes on (with a healthy dose of RonTheDeathEater for Curly). It pretty much all hinges around "Pore Jud Is Daid", a scene where Curly potentially tries to convince Jud that hanging himself would be a good idea. Some people take it so far as to claim that ''Jud'' is in fact the hero of the story and Curly is the ''villain''. Of course, this ignores Jud's multiple murder attempts on Curly, the implication that he'd be willing to rape/kill Laurie if she rejects him and the fact that he's been stalking Laurie for at least two years, while Curly's bad behavior is confined to that one scene.
* [[HandicappedBadass Ali Stroker as Ado Annie]].
** While the production itself caused a divided response ([[BrokenBase discussed above]]), the one thing that everyone agrees on is that Stroker was excellent, not just giving a great performance despite her disability, but actually using it to her advantage. She ended up winning the Tony, being the first performer in a wheelchair to ever receive this honor (or be nominated for that matter). Even people who disliked the production were happy for Stroker and noted that her work and recognition was a great breakthrough for handicapped actors and actresses.

to:

* DracoInLeatherPants: DracoInLeatherPants:
**
Happens to Jud more and more as time goes on (with a healthy dose of RonTheDeathEater for Curly). It pretty much all hinges around "Pore Jud Is Daid", a scene where Curly potentially tries to convince Jud that hanging himself would be a good idea. Some people take it so far as to claim that ''Jud'' is in fact the hero of the story and Curly is the ''villain''. Of course, this ignores Jud's multiple murder attempts on Curly, the implication that he'd be willing to rape/kill Laurie if she rejects him and the fact that he's been stalking Laurie for at least two years, while Curly's bad behavior is confined to that one scene.
* ** [[HandicappedBadass Ali Stroker as Ado Annie]].
**
Annie]]. While the production itself caused a divided response ([[BrokenBase discussed above]]), the one thing that everyone agrees on is that Stroker was excellent, not just giving a great performance despite her disability, but actually using it to her advantage. She ended up winning the Tony, being the first performer in a wheelchair to ever receive this honor (or be nominated for that matter). Even people who disliked the production were happy for Stroker and noted that her work and recognition was a great breakthrough for handicapped actors and actresses.

Added: 610

Changed: 1

Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None


* DracoInLeatherPants: Happens to Jud more and more as time goes on (with a healthy dose of RonTheDeathEater for Curly). It pretty much all hinges around "Pore Jud Is Daid", a scene where Curly potentially tries to convince Jud that hanging himself would be a good idea. Some people take it so far as to claim that ''Jud'' is in fact the hero of the story and Curly is the ''villain''. Of course, this ignores Jud's multiple murder attempts on Curly, the implication that he'd be willing to rape/kill Laurie if she rejects him and the fact that he's been stalking Laurie for at least two years, while Curly's bad behaviour is confined to that one scene.

to:

* DracoInLeatherPants: Happens to Jud more and more as time goes on (with a healthy dose of RonTheDeathEater for Curly). It pretty much all hinges around "Pore Jud Is Daid", a scene where Curly potentially tries to convince Jud that hanging himself would be a good idea. Some people take it so far as to claim that ''Jud'' is in fact the hero of the story and Curly is the ''villain''. Of course, this ignores Jud's multiple murder attempts on Curly, the implication that he'd be willing to rape/kill Laurie if she rejects him and the fact that he's been stalking Laurie for at least two years, while Curly's bad behaviour behavior is confined to that one scene.scene.
* [[HandicappedBadass Ali Stroker as Ado Annie]].
** While the production itself caused a divided response ([[BrokenBase discussed above]]), the one thing that everyone agrees on is that Stroker was excellent, not just giving a great performance despite her disability, but actually using it to her advantage. She ended up winning the Tony, being the first performer in a wheelchair to ever receive this honor (or be nominated for that matter). Even people who disliked the production were happy for Stroker and noted that her work and recognition was a great breakthrough for handicapped actors and actresses.
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None

Added DiffLines:

** [[DarkerAndEdgier The 2019 Broadway revival]] divided audiences, with many believing it was a brilliant reworking of the show that gave it a new feel without changing a single word. Others thought it felt like it was trying to weird and dark just for the sake of being weird and dark.
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None

Added DiffLines:

* FoeYay: Between Curly and Jud in the 2019 revival. To quote Damon Daunno, who played Curly:
--> “There’s no denying that there’s physical chemistry there as well between Curly and Jud. We definitely lean into that. We used to refer to [‘Pore Jud’] as the kissing scene because we get so close to each other.”
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In-universe examples only


* EarWorm: "Oklahoma" is an outrageously catchy tune. It's worse if you live in the actual state of Oklahoma, where it is the official state song, meaning you will hear it with some regularity even if you don't watch musicals.
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Added DiffLines:

** In the 2019 Broadway revival, Jud and Curly's brawl at the wedding is replaced with Jud merely offering Curly a pistol as a wedding present, whereupon Curly shoots Jud in claimed self-defense. The trial is thus played much more like a hasty cover-up and leaves the audience with the question of Jud perhaps being suicidal.
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Commenting on a suggestion.

Added DiffLines:

**Could Jud be part Native American? It seems odd that in Oklahoma at this time period we don't see ANY Indians.
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None

Added DiffLines:

* DracoInLeatherPants: Happens to Jud more and more as time goes on (with a healthy dose of RonTheDeathEater for Curly). It pretty much all hinges around "Pore Jud Is Daid", a scene where Curly potentially tries to convince Jud that hanging himself would be a good idea. Some people take it so far as to claim that ''Jud'' is in fact the hero of the story and Curly is the ''villain''. Of course, this ignores Jud's multiple murder attempts on Curly, the implication that he'd be willing to rape/kill Laurie if she rejects him and the fact that he's been stalking Laurie for at least two years, while Curly's bad behaviour is confined to that one scene.

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