History YMMV / HorusHeresy

2nd Jul '16 8:54:15 PM Angeldeb82
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* AlternateCharacterInterpretation: The Horus Heresy novels tweak a lot of the various background details from the tabletop.

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* AlternateCharacterInterpretation: AlternativeCharacterInterpretation: The Horus Heresy novels tweak a lot of the various background details from the tabletop.



*** [[AlternateCharacterInterpretation Or]] a man with too little time, who had to either choose to coddle his adult long lost children or hope they were mature enough to deal with real life without daddy holding their hand?

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*** [[AlternateCharacterInterpretation [[AlternativeCharacterInterpretation Or]] a man with too little time, who had to either choose to coddle his adult long lost children or hope they were mature enough to deal with real life without daddy holding their hand?



** The [[{{Literature/SpaceWolf}} Space Wolves]] are regarded as savage, brutish, even unworthy of being {{Space Marine}}s by their fellows -- in the 41st millennium, they are actually one of the nicer chapters.

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** The [[{{Literature/SpaceWolf}} Space Wolves]] Literature/{{Space Wol|f}}ves are regarded as savage, brutish, even unworthy of being {{Space Marine}}s by their fellows -- in the 41st millennium, they are actually one of the nicer chapters.



** The nature of the Second and Eleventh Primarchs and their so-called Lost Legions is left mysterious in the game in order to encourage players to create their own SpaceMarine chapters. In the Horus Heresy novels, it's stated several times that these two Primarchs and their Legions were wiped out and {{Unperson}}ed ''by'' the Emperor and his other Legions for something, well before Horus was corrupted by Chaos. The precise cause is still a mystery, though.

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** The nature of the Second and Eleventh Primarchs and their so-called Lost Legions is left mysterious in the game in order to encourage players to create their own SpaceMarine chapters. In the Horus Heresy novels, it's stated several times that these two Primarchs and their Legions were wiped out and {{Unperson}}ed [[UnPerson Un-Personed]] ''by'' the Emperor and his other Legions for something, well before Horus was corrupted by Chaos. The precise cause is still a mystery, though.



** In a recent interview, Creator/DanAbnett says they often have to chose between conflicting versions of the same tale when they write it up for inclusion in this series, and that they think of these books as what actually happened, and the versions of the tales we know from earlier works being the versions as filtered through 10,000 years of oral history repetition between the Heresy and Warhammer40k proper.

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** In a recent interview, Creator/DanAbnett says they often have to chose between conflicting versions of the same tale when they write it up for inclusion in this series, and that they think of these books as what actually happened, and the versions of the tales we know from earlier works being the versions as filtered through 10,000 years of oral history repetition between the Heresy and Warhammer40k TabletopGame/{{Warhammer 40000}} proper.



* AwesomeArt: Some of the wraparound covers are impossibly amazing, such as the one for ''[[http://www.blacklibrary.com/Images/BL/blog/2011/07/Know_No_Fear_huge.jpg Know No Fear]]'' or, more recently, ''[[http://vignette2.wikia.nocookie.net/warhammer40k/images/a/aa/HHXXXI-Deathfire.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20150802102613 Deathfire]]''.

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* AwesomeArt: SugarWiki/AwesomeArt: Some of the wraparound covers are impossibly amazing, such as the one for ''[[http://www.blacklibrary.com/Images/BL/blog/2011/07/Know_No_Fear_huge.jpg Know No Fear]]'' or, more recently, ''[[http://vignette2.wikia.nocookie.net/warhammer40k/images/a/aa/HHXXXI-Deathfire.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20150802102613 Deathfire]]''.



** The Emperor of Mankind is a brilliant genius who was forced to do some terrible things for the good of humanity vs. the Emperor is a whiny, self-absorbed warlord with delusions of infallibility. There's also the moderate part which believes that the Emperor is a good-intentioned, but deeply flawed being, and the people who theorize that [[TakeTheThirdOption the Emperor of Mankind is actually not an ancient magical being, but an artificial human in the vein of the Primarchs created by Malcador, the]] ''[[TakeTheThirdOption true]]'' [[TakeTheThirdOption immortal protector of humanity, only a few hundred years back]].

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** The Emperor of Mankind is a brilliant genius who was forced to do some terrible things for the good of humanity vs. the Emperor is a whiny, self-absorbed warlord with delusions of infallibility. There's also the moderate part which believes that the Emperor is a good-intentioned, but deeply flawed being, and the people who theorize that [[TakeTheThirdOption [[TakeAThirdOption the Emperor of Mankind is actually not an ancient magical being, but an artificial human in the vein of the Primarchs created by Malcador, the]] ''[[TakeTheThirdOption true]]'' [[TakeTheThirdOption ''{{t|akeAThirdOption}}rue'' [[TakeAThirdOption immortal protector of humanity, only a few hundred years back]].



* ComeForTheXStayForTheY: Come for the backstory of ''TabletopGames/{{Warhammer 40 000}}'', stay for the sheer amounts of badassery, awesome and CrazyAwesome involved in some books.

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* ComeForTheXStayForTheY: Come for the backstory of ''TabletopGames/{{Warhammer 40 000}}'', 40000}}'', stay for the sheer amounts of badassery, awesome and CrazyAwesome involved in some books.



*** Not only that, but the above plan was considered only a ''partial victory''. The [[spoiler: demon (possibly Tzeentch/one of his agents) had intended for the Space Wolves/Russ and the Thousand Sons/Magnus to destroy one another completely, as they represented the most powerful magical and physical barriers (respectively) to Horus's impending heresy. Instead, the Space Wolves were only bloodied, but the Thousand Sons survived and turned to Chaos.]]

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*** Not only that, but the above plan was considered only a ''partial victory''. The [[spoiler: [[spoiler:The demon (possibly Tzeentch/one of his agents) had intended for the Space Wolves/Russ and the Thousand Sons/Magnus to destroy one another completely, as they represented the most powerful magical and physical barriers (respectively) to Horus's impending heresy. Instead, the Space Wolves were only bloodied, but the Thousand Sons survived and turned to Chaos.]]



* VillainSue: Spear from Nemesis. He's a "Black Pariah" (an Anti-Mage so powerful that he can literally suck the souls out of people, a feat that the Culexus assassins need arcane wargear to do) who has a daemon ''bonded to his skin'', giving him access to AnatomyArsenal and VoluntaryShapeshifting, as well as making him highly resistant to PsychicPowers, AntiMagic ''and'' physical attacks all at the same time. In addition he has the ability to kill any psyker, no matter how powerful, even [[spoiler: [[{{GodEmperor}} The Emperor]]]], if he only samples their DNA. Also add that his description of being more evil as a human being (having killed both his parents) than the demon whose skin he's wearing, and you've got a perfect example of a VillainSue. He's Carnage and the T-1000 in one.
** Justified given that he was created purely to kill [[spoiler:TheEmperor, and Spear spends the book trying to find a drop of the Emperor's blood so he can do just that]].
** To be fair, we don't know he could actually do anything to his intended target. The best we see Spear ever do is kill Space Marines, which isn't exactly unique. It's entirely possible that, upon getting to the Sol system, Spear would have had his brains blown three ways into the warp by the Emperor taking a peek in his direction. This is discussed in the novel.
** Fulgrim never loses. He exterminated the Laer, defeated Eldrad Ulthran (the most powerful non-human psyker in the galaxy), killed an [[GodInHumanForm Avatar of Khaine]] with his bare hands, killed Ferrus Manus, overpowered the Slaaneshi daemon that possessed him[[note]]According to ''The Reflection Crack'd'', he figured it out on his own, while trapped in his portrait, how to steal his body back from the daemon[[/note]], became a daemon prince[[note]]His path to apotheosis was merely the fulfillment of an Eldar prophecy; compare to Perturabo's, who sacrificed the gene-seed of four hundred Imperial Fists after delivering a crushing blow to the Chapter in the Iron Cage[[/note]], mortally wounded Roboute Guilliman, and rules a pleasure planet gifted to him by Slaanesh. The closest he came to a legitimate defeat was when he failed to turn Ferrus to Horus's cause and they handed their asses to each other. Yeah, he's supposed to be the AnthropomorphicPersonification of perfection, but come on.
*** The overpowering of the Slaaneshi daemon is actually kind of not so impressive if you're aware of the ''BlackCrusade'' roleplaying game; the sample Daemon Prince from the corebook is a once-ordinary human woman who deliberately summoned a Keeper of Secrets (as in, the most powerful kind of Slaaneshi daemon) into her body... and ''reverse-possessed it''. Essentially, she not only kept control of her own body, she stole all the daemon's powers and basically ''digested it'' to extend her youth. And she did this not once, but '''three times''' before Slaanesh hirself showed up and turned her into a Daemon Princess as a way of saying, "Damn, but you're one BadassNormal". Next to that, Fulgrim's possession/reversal of the possession is not too impressive.
*** And let's not forget that daemons are lying liars who lie. Who says it's not the daemon lying to itself that it's Fulgrim?
*** Fulgrim's accomplishments aren't really all that impressive, by Primarch standards. Eldrad was relatively young at the time, and an Avatar of Khaine? By comparison, Magnus the Red has defeated Titans on at least two separate occasions, something Fulgrim required fully falling to Slaanesh to accomplish (And by Lucius' words, only Magnus before had the power to do such things). Sanguinius felled two greater daemons in quick succession. Lion El'Jonson defeated Kairos the Fateweaver in single combat. He required the full backing of the Laer Blade to defeat Ferrus Manus in their second confrontation. Not to mention, in Aurelian, Lorgar strikes the Daemon Fulgrim down in fury, and proceeds to psychically dominate the creature that had possessed his body, toying with it casually. Considering we then later see that even from the other side of the galaxy, Lorgar is no match for Magnus as a psyker, it is no stretch to assume the Cyclops could do the same. In the ending, it is implied that Lorgar will help Fulgrim regain control of his body, so it is unlikely Fulgrim did so alone.
*** It is implied in the original source (Index Astartes: Ultramarines) that Fulgrim's battle with Guilliman was a MutualKill, the difference being that Fulgrim can only be banished (the setting is iffy on whether it is possible to permanently destroy daemons), whilst Guilliman, having not sold his soul to the Ruinous Powers, can't.
25th Apr '16 8:01:58 PM Steam_Lord
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** The Interex are either a superior moral alternative to the imperium, or they were too weak to survive the horrors of 30k, let alone 40k.
25th Apr '16 5:45:46 PM MetalKing1417
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** The Interex are either a superior moral alternative to the imperium, or they were too weak to survive the horrors of 30k, let alone 40k.
18th Mar '16 11:28:56 AM Ilya_Rysenkov
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** [[spoiler: ''Wolf King'' story reveals that though Leman Russ took his father's order to become TheDreaded and HeroKiller to heart, after destruction of Prospero and Magnus's presumed death he decided to abandon this role and change his Legion and himself lest they have no allies. It seems it worked.]]
10th Feb '16 2:43:26 PM Steam_Lord
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** Tarik Torgaddon and Hastur Sejanus have a large following, the latter more puzzling because for 99% of the series, he's TheGhost.

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** Tarik Torgaddon and Hastur Sejanus [[OnlySaneMan Hastur]] [[WhiteSheep Sejanus]] have a large following, the latter more puzzling because for 99% of the series, he's TheGhost.



** There are enough Primarch ships to form an entire battlefleet, with Horus/Sanguinus as the flagship. Almost every single combination has been explored online... except for Angron/anyone, because no-one's quite sure how to make ''that'' work.

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** There are enough Primarch ships to form an entire battlefleet, with Horus/Sanguinus as the flagship. Almost every single combination has been explored online... except for Angron/anyone, because no-one's quite sure how to make ''that'' work.
10th Feb '16 10:55:21 AM Kakai
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* IncestYayShipping: Like you wouldn't believe. With LoadsAndLoadsOfCharacters being mostly related to each other via genetic engineering, ship-oriented parts of fandom have largely ignored the implications and just sailed on.
** There are enough Primarch ships to form an entire battlefleet, with Horus/Sanguinus as the flagship. Almost every single combination has been explored online... except for Angron/anyone, because no-one's quite sure how to make ''that'' work.
** Father/son ships also abound, mostly Curze/Sevatar and Dorn/Sigismund, the latter of which truly set sail after ''The Crimson Fist''.
** Let us also not forget of the One True Foursome that is Mournival.
10th Feb '16 10:44:38 AM Kakai
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** Nykona Sharrowkyn is either cool or a MarySue.


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* EnsembleDarkhorse:
** Garviel Loken is the prime example, starting out simply as POV of the first trilogy and getting so much fan love, he was one of the first characters introduced to the tabletop game of Heresy.
** Tarik Torgaddon and Hastur Sejanus have a large following, the latter more puzzling because for 99% of the series, he's TheGhost.
** Sigismund is almost universally beloved by fandom, although there are two groups of fans. One, prowling the forums, loves him for his sheer fighting prowess and awesome he brings wherever he goes, while the other, residing mostly on Website/ArchiveOfOurOwn and Tumblr, loves exploring his tragic relationship with his gene-sire following ''The Crimson Fist'' and revelations thereof.
10th Feb '16 10:37:41 AM Kakai
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** Made even more hilarious when in ''Vow of Faith'' we find out that [[spoiler:Karkasy's now the greatest supporter and pretty much second-in-command to Euphrati Keeler, the chief preacher of the Imperial Creed.]]
10th Feb '16 10:10:12 AM Kakai
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*** FridgeLogic presents an obvious third interpretation: the Emperor is [[EldritchAbomination immortal and essentially unkillable]], so most likely he sees no need for sons or heirs at all. The legions and primarchs _think_ he regards the primarchs in the way that a man might view his offspring because it's part of their brainwashing, but it's not actually the case: they are intended as simple tools to allow him to project his power in various ways, and he views their status as thinking beings as an unfortunate side effect. It never occurs to him that they might be 'offended' by only receiving the minimum information to complete the immediate task at hand because he doesn't actually think of them as people so much as a set of really fancy telecommunications gear.

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*** FridgeLogic presents an obvious third interpretation: the Emperor is [[EldritchAbomination immortal and essentially unkillable]], so most likely he sees no need for sons or heirs at all. The legions and primarchs _think_ ''think'' he regards the primarchs in the way that a man might view his offspring because it's part of their brainwashing, but it's not actually the case: they are intended as simple tools to allow him to project his power in various ways, and he views their status as thinking beings as an unfortunate side effect. It never occurs to him that they might be 'offended' by only receiving the minimum information to complete the immediate task at hand because he doesn't actually think of them as people so much as a set of really fancy telecommunications gear.



** The Emperor of Mankind is a brilliant genius who was forced to do some terrible things for the good of humanity vs. the Emperor is a whiny, self-absorbed warlord with delusions of infallibility. There's also the moderate part which believes that the Emperor is a good-intentioned, but deeply flawed being, and the people who theorize that [[TakeTheThirdOption the Emperor of Mankind is actually not an ancient magical being, but an artificial human in the vein of the Primarchs created by Malcador, the ''true'' immortal protector of humanity, only a few hundred years back]].

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** The Emperor of Mankind is a brilliant genius who was forced to do some terrible things for the good of humanity vs. the Emperor is a whiny, self-absorbed warlord with delusions of infallibility. There's also the moderate part which believes that the Emperor is a good-intentioned, but deeply flawed being, and the people who theorize that [[TakeTheThirdOption the Emperor of Mankind is actually not an ancient magical being, but an artificial human in the vein of the Primarchs created by Malcador, the ''true'' the]] ''[[TakeTheThirdOption true]]'' [[TakeTheThirdOption immortal protector of humanity, only a few hundred years back]].
10th Feb '16 10:07:22 AM Kakai
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* BrokenBase: While UnpleasableFanbase is pretty much a constant for this franchise, some issues are more divisive than others.
** Imperium Secundus is redundant, brings nothing but padding to the plot and should have never been invented vs. Imperium Secundus is the only logical thing to happen and a fascinating sub-plot vs. Imperium Secundus has some nice concepts, but is overally [[TheyWastedAPerfectlyGoodPlot severely underused]].
** The franchise itself is either continuously interesting and pushes its plot forward at a good pace or it's getting steadily worse and has abandoned all pretense of advancing the plot in favour of turning into a shameless money-grab.
** New and revamped Ollanius Pius is either awesome or a fail on Games Workshop's part.
** The Emperor of Mankind is a brilliant genius who was forced to do some terrible things for the good of humanity vs. the Emperor is a whiny, self-absorbed warlord with delusions of infallibility. There's also the moderate part which believes that the Emperor is a good-intentioned, but deeply flawed being, and the people who theorize that [[TakeTheThirdOption the Emperor of Mankind is actually not an ancient magical being, but an artificial human in the vein of the Primarchs created by Malcador, the ''true'' immortal protector of humanity, only a few hundred years back]].
** The Primarchs. ''Ye gods of Chaos'', the Primarchs. Lines are drawn in case of almost every single one and the debates that can break out could power Khorne for decades to come. Pretty much the only Primarch whom everyone can agree is generally okay is Ferrus Manus, and that's probably only because he died to early to become divisive. For the most heated arguments:
*** Roboute Guilliman is the most humane, easy-to-emphasize-with Primarch who has to make do with what he has vs. Guilliman's a {{jerkass}} and traitor to the Imperium.
*** Leman Russ is ObfuscatingStupidity and awesome vs. Leman Russ is a hypocrite of highest order and [[TheyWastedAPerfectlyGoodCharacter fails to deliver on his promise]]. The only thing the two sides can agree on is that he should be used more by the story.
*** Horus is a brilliant man who was tragically corrupted into serving Chaos vs. Horus couldn't stub his toe without coming to cry to daddy about it and it's no surprise that when the Emperor left, he threw a hissing fit.
*** Sanguinus is the most loyal son of pure heart and mind vs. Sanguinus is a traitor who considered cooperating with xenos and nearly sold his soul to Chaos. Not to mention the division of "if he told his father about the flaw, it could've been solved" vs. "if he told his father about the flaw, the Blood Angels would be purged".
*** Angron and Lorgar are tragic figures who had no choice but to turn against their father vs. they're narcissts who should man up and solve their problems by themselves rather than blame it all on the Emperor.
*** Perturabo is a NobleDemon and OnlySaneMan of the traitor Primarch vs. Perturabo is petulant and too preoccupied with his own misery to try and find some common ground with others.
*** Konrad Curze is a cursed figure of tragedy tortured by his own mind, whom we should pity vs. Curze is too edgy and too far gone and should be executed like a rabid dog.
*** Rogal Dorn is either a stalwart ReasonableAuthorityFigure or too hard-headed and inflexible to be fit for command.
*** Magnus was wrongly punished and did nothing wrong vs. Magnus should know better than to do what he did and now reaps what he sow.
** You're either with Perturabo and against Dorn or with Dorn and against Perturabo. No middle ground. Ditto for Leman Russ vs. Magnus. If you support one, the other side will rip you to shreds.
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http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/article_history.php?article=YMMV.HorusHeresy