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** When Luke's Batwing costume was first shown off, some people thought the design of the faceplate made it resemble an [[Franchise/TheTransformers Optimus Prime]] cosplay.

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** When Luke's Batwing costume was first shown off, some people thought the design of the faceplate made it resemble an [[Franchise/TheTransformers [[Franchise/{{Transformers}} Optimus Prime]] cosplay.

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Cutting Ryan from Unintentionally Unsympathetic, per the UU cleanup thread.


** Ryan:
*** She blames her arrest on the system. She originally claims that the drugs were planted on her by the Crows, only for a later episode to show it was her girlfriend's drugs and she had them on her when she was inspected by the Crows, making her a flat out liar. The only reason the Crows searched her is because she couldn't control her temper and verbally insulted them, so it had nothing to do with "the system" but her own actions.
*** She also wants to save Kate, while insisting that Alice has to pay for killing her mother, which is [[{{Hypocrite}} hypocritical]] because the hypnotist that turned Kate Kane into Circe [[MoralMyopia also]] turned Beth Kane into Alice. And, to add insult to injury, Alice didn't even kill Ryan's mother - she turned up afterwards, didn't order the killing, and while Ryan blames Alice for her goons being willing to murder in the first place, there's no real evidence that they were acting out of anything but their own initiative.
*** She is extreme towards any drug user/dealer using Snakebite, but wants to do everything she can to protect Angelique. Angelique is the woman whose drugs she went to jail over and who is creating Snakebite, which Ryan is completely aware of.



** They try to make Alice more sympathetic by claiming that her whole "Alice" mentality was created by a hypnotist. But despite knowing this, she will still kill innocent people just because she is bored. Season 3 makes it worse, as Alice maligners and wheedles her way out of Arkham and into a truly enviable work-release program wherein she gets to live in Sophie's apartment and have Mary as her personal physician in exchange for offering the Bat-Team intel on Batman's old rogues, and she chooses to take advantage of the situation to manipulate Mary into betraying her friends and becoming the new Poison Ivy, only turning around and helping Batwoman and Batwing because her machinations ultimately resulted in the return of the ''real'' Poison Ivy and Alice realized that she'd been outgambited. That being said, the writers seem to realize this to an extent, as Alice's hallucinations of her deceased lovers and friends have mocked her for wanting to redeem herself when she's still a heartless killer--which comes ''after'' she [[spoiler: hands over the Batcave's location to Marquis Jet just so she can have the joy buzzer that could supposedly cure her insanity]].

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** They try to make Alice more sympathetic by claiming that her whole "Alice" mentality was created by a hypnotist. But despite knowing this, she will still kill innocent people just because she is bored. Season 3 makes it worse, as Alice maligners malingers and wheedles her way out of Arkham and into a truly enviable work-release program wherein she gets to live in Sophie's apartment and have Mary as her personal physician in exchange for offering the Bat-Team intel on Batman's old rogues, and she chooses to take advantage of the situation to manipulate Mary into betraying her friends and becoming the new Poison Ivy, only turning around and helping Batwoman and Batwing because her machinations ultimately resulted in the return of the ''real'' Poison Ivy and Alice realized that she'd been outgambited. That being said, the writers seem to realize this to an extent, as Alice's hallucinations of her deceased lovers and friends have mocked her for wanting to redeem herself when she's still a heartless killer--which comes ''after'' she [[spoiler: hands [[spoiler:hands over the Batcave's location to Marquis Jet just so she can have the joy buzzer that could supposedly cure her insanity]].
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Spelling/grammar fix(es)


* BrokenBase: between the Kate Kane and her replacement by Ryan. Losing Kate meant losing the family dynamic of the Kanes and the link to the wider Bat family and DC Universe (Ryan only appearing on 'The Flash' and not the rest of the Arrowverse). Whilst Ryan may have lasted for many more episodes viewing figures and audience appreciation ratings halved once she took over.

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* BrokenBase: between the Between Kate Kane and her replacement by Ryan. Ryan Wilder. Losing Kate meant losing the family dynamic of the Kanes and the link to the wider Bat family and DC Universe (Ryan only appearing on 'The Flash' ''The Flash'' and not the rest of the Arrowverse). Whilst Ryan may have lasted for many more episodes episodes, viewing figures and audience appreciation ratings halved once she took over.



** Despite only being around for a few episodes the alternate Beth was a well-liked character for her overall personality, and the counter she provided to Alice.

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** Despite only being around for a few episodes episodes, the alternate Beth was a well-liked character for her overall personality, and the counter she provided to Alice.



* {{Fanon}}: It is agreed among the fans and even the detractors that the sole reason that Kate Kane was not killed off, despite Ruby Rose having left the set with no desire to return and the director at the time flat out stating they were not going to recast Kate Kane, was because the staff were afraid that their fans would think they were using the BuryYourGays trope and be accused of homophobia.

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* {{Fanon}}: It is agreed among the fans and even the detractors that the sole reason that Kate Kane was not killed off, despite Ruby Rose having left the set with no desire to return and the director at the time flat out flat-out stating they were not going to recast Kate Kane, the character, was because the staff were afraid that their fans would think they were using the BuryYourGays trope and be accused of homophobia.



* MisBlamed: For ''Series/{{Gotham}}'' ending and ''[[Series/SwampThing2019 Swamp Thing]]'' being canceled. The shows don't affect each other because ''Gotham'' is from Fox (and was announced to have been ending ''way'' before Batwoman's announcement), ''Swamp Thing'' is from the DC Universe streaming service, and ''Batwoman'' is from The CW. The latter is especially egregious since Swamp Thing isn't even part of the Batman mythos.

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* MisBlamed: {{Misblamed}}: For ''Series/{{Gotham}}'' ending and ''[[Series/SwampThing2019 Swamp Thing]]'' being canceled. The shows don't affect each other because ''Gotham'' is from Fox (and was announced to have been ending ''way'' before Batwoman's announcement), ''Swamp Thing'' is from the DC Universe streaming service, and ''Batwoman'' is from The CW. The latter is especially egregious since Swamp Thing isn't even part of the Batman mythos.



* PreemptiveShipping: After Ryan Wilder was announced as the new lead character in Season 2, fans quickly began shipping her with Sophie Moore, the previous Batwoman's love interest, which led to some frustration when Ryan actually debuted and it turned out that she and Sophie have an antagonistic history with each other. [[spoiler: The ship ended up becoming canon in Season 3, when Sophie and Ryan enter a relationship.]]
* QuestionableCasting: : A minor example; no one ''ever'' expected Creator/RachelMaddow to act (even if merely as a radio host) in a superhero TV show, but it's mostly because she's a news personality/talking head first and foremost.

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* PreemptiveShipping: After Ryan Wilder was announced as the new lead character in Season 2, fans quickly began shipping her with Sophie Moore, the previous Batwoman's love interest, which led to some frustration when Ryan actually debuted and it turned out that she and Sophie have an antagonistic history with each other. [[spoiler: The However, the ship ended up becoming canon in Season 3, when Sophie and Ryan enter a relationship.]]
* QuestionableCasting: : A minor example; no one ''ever'' expected Creator/RachelMaddow to act (even if merely as a radio host) in a superhero TV show, but it's mostly because she's a news personality/talking head first and foremost.
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Misplaced, moving to the correct tab

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* IKnewIt:
** The disguised names of the main characters in casting announcements for season 1 included "Sloane," who many assumed was Renee Montoya based on the description and her relative popularity. Some, however, noticed that all the fake names began with the same letter of the actual character's name, and correctly guessed that "Sloane" was Sophie Moore based on the same logic.
** Many fans correctly guessed that Kate would be recast in the second half of season two.

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Renamed trope


* QuestionableCasting: : A minor example; no one ''ever'' expected Creator/RachelMaddow to act (even if merely as a radio host) in a superhero TV show, but it's mostly because she's a news personality/talking head first and foremost.



* WTHCastingAgency: A minor example; no one ''ever'' expected Creator/RachelMaddow to act (even if merely as a radio host) in a superhero TV show, but it's mostly because she's a news personality/talking head first and foremost.
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Has been made into a disambiguation.


* EvilIsSexy:
** Despite being a PsychopathicWomanchild, Alice is still an attractive woman who mostly wears frilly clothes that manage to highlight her AliceAllusion beauty and cuteness.
** The show gives us ''two'' versions of Poison Ivy, one in some very flattering green lingerie with a matching jacket, and the other played by Creator/BridgetRegan in a tight leather ensemble.

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* CanonDiscontinuity: With the series CutShort, many deem the last few minutes of the GrandFinale to be this, preferring the scene of the Bat Family together to be the real final scene.


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* FanonDiscontinuity: With the series CutShort, many deem the last few minutes of the GrandFinale to be this, preferring the scene of the Bat Family together to be the real final scene.
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* CanonDiscontinuity: With the series CutShort, many deem the last few minutes of the GrandFinale to be this, preferring the scene of the Bat Family together to be the real final scene.

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* MoralEventHorizon:
** Alice murdering Catherine cruelly in front of her own daughter and incriminating Jacob is the final straw for him and Kate, who give up on any possible redemption for Alice after this.
** Black Mask crossed the line when he [[spoiler: has Kate's plane shot down, kidnaps her, uses a hypnotist to brainwash her into believing she's his long-deceased daughter, and decides to burn Gotham to the ground so he can [[EngineeredHeroics "save"]] it.]]

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* MoralEventHorizon:
** Alice murdering Catherine cruelly in front of her own daughter and incriminating Jacob is the final straw for him and Kate, who give up on any possible redemption for Alice after this.
** Black Mask crossed the line when he [[spoiler: has Kate's plane shot down, kidnaps her, uses a hypnotist to brainwash her into believing she's his long-deceased daughter, and decides to burn Gotham to the ground so he can [[EngineeredHeroics "save"]] it.]]
MoralEventHorizon: See [[MoralEventHorizon/{{Arrowverse}} here]].
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* BrokenBase: between the Kate Kane and her replacement by Ryan. Losing Kate meant losing the family dynamic of the Kanes and the link to the wider Bat family and DC Universe (Ryan never participating in any crossover events with the rest of the Arrowverse). Whilst Ryan may have lasted for many more episodes viewing figures and audience appreciation ratings halved once she took over.

to:

* BrokenBase: between the Kate Kane and her replacement by Ryan. Losing Kate meant losing the family dynamic of the Kanes and the link to the wider Bat family and DC Universe (Ryan never participating in any crossover events with only appearing on 'The Flash' and not the rest of the Arrowverse). Whilst Ryan may have lasted for many more episodes viewing figures and audience appreciation ratings halved once she took over.
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None

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* BrokenBase: between the Kate Kane and her replacement by Ryan. Losing Kate meant losing the family dynamic of the Kanes and the link to the wider Bat family and DC Universe (Ryan never participating in any crossover events with the rest of the Arrowverse). Whilst Ryan may have lasted for many more episodes viewing figures and audience appreciation ratings halved once she took over.
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I had to explain that to my parents.


** Kate herself has gotten this reaction, with a fair number of people not realizing that she originated in the comics over a decade prior, and/or isn't a genderswapped version of Bruce.

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** Kate herself has gotten this reaction, with a fair number of people not realizing that she originated in the comics over a decade prior, and/or isn't a genderswapped version of Bruce. Likewise, Kate being a lesbian became part of her character years before the series was announced.


* AcceptableTargets:
** The wealthy. Not only are they generally blamed for most of the problems of Gotham, Kate resents having to help them out. Which is a bit of a BoomerangBigot as it is made clear she is wealthy herself.
** The cops. Whether GCPD or The Crows, the police are not painted in a good light. In Season 1, the commissioner would have actually let his son die rather than publicly accept help from a lesbian superhero, while any member of the Crows that wasn't Jacob or Sophie are not considered good people. It gets worse in Season 2, as Ryan absolutely despises the Crows (causing a LOT of friction with Sophie for most of the season) and Luke is shot and almost killed by a racist member of the Crows, who nearly performs a coup when Jacob tries to rein him in.
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** Stephanie Brown is only in one episode, but is pretty popular for having her live-action debut be faithful to the comics and for being an impressively clever ViolentlyProtectiveGirlfriend.
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Requires Word Of God confirmation


* AuthorsSavingThrow:
** One of the more contentious lines from the first trailer ("They think I'm him. I'm not about to let a man take credit for a woman's work.") was cut from the final pilot. If anything, she was ''happy'' to let the idea that Batman had returned make her secret identity all the easier to keep.
** Many complained that Ryan was basically an outsider to the plot in Season 2, which still revolved around Kate despite the infamous recasting. The final few episodes closed up almost every Kate-focused subplot and had the character herself leave town to find Bruce in order to give Ryan the spotlight. The end of the episode even had a tease that the major arc of Season 3 will focus on Ryan herself, rather than Kate or Alice.
** Fans were irritated that The Crows basically took over the GCPD, chucking them from the plot almost entirely. Between most of the members being HateSink after HateSink (except for Sophie or Jacob) and their track record seemingly worse than the GCPD, many wished they would just leave and bring back the regular police, especially since that allows the writers to bring in familiar faces from the comics. Near the end of Season 2, Jacob disbands The Crows and Season 3 brings in fan-favorite GCPD detective Renee Montoya.
** The Desert Rose is made out to be a real life {{Panacea}}, able to cure every and any ailment that exists. That obviously wrote the writers into a corner when they have something that makes the viewers just wonder "why can't they just use the Desert Rose to solve x". A few episodes later made it clear that the Desert Rose needs to be pure to work, and any dilution will instead kill someone.

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* StrawmanHasAPoint: In episode six, Jacob says that Batwoman as a masked vigilante is unaccountable to anyone but herself unlike any licensed crimefighter. While the episode plays Jacob's hatred of those who were the Bat symbol as IrrationalHatred for Batman not saving his wife and daughter, he isn't wrong about Batwoman being a vigilante who is unaccountable to the law and one whose identity isn't public at that.

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* StrawmanHasAPoint: Jacob gets this, twice.
**
In episode six, Jacob says that Batwoman as a masked vigilante is unaccountable to anyone but herself unlike any licensed crimefighter. While the episode plays Jacob's hatred of those who were the Bat symbol as IrrationalHatred for Batman not saving his wife and daughter, he isn't wrong about Batwoman being a vigilante who is unaccountable to the law and one whose identity isn't public at that.that.
** When he finds out about Mary's free clinic in season 2 he tells her to shut it down, pointing out that she isn't a licenced physician and that Catherine had started her unethical human testing by doing the same thing. Her reply is she isn't experimenting on them, which he counters by pointing out that since isn't a real doctor, none of her treatments are safe or legal either so she effectively ''is''.
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* UnfortunateImplications: The casting of Christina Wolfe as Julia Pennyworth, daughter of Alfred Pennyworth. The character was first created by Gerry Conway and Don Newton, in ''Detective Comics #501'', under the name Julia Remarque. In that incarnation, she was a white woman, and her mother was a woman named Mademoiselle Marie, and the character was another non-metahuman reporter. This version of Julia was erased from existence following the collapse of the original Multiverse in the 1985–86 ''Crisis on Infinite Earths'' limited series. Therefore, the version from the New 52, where the character is black, is the correct canonical incarnation of Julia Pennyworth. [[https://www.themarysue.com/batwoman-showrunners-explanation-for-julia-pennyworths-whitewashing-is-lacking/ This article]] of the website ''The Mary Sue'' pointed this as whitewashing. Showrunner Caroline Dries' justification didn't help much: she argues that they needed to cast a white actress because she needed to wear Batwoman's uniform and fool Sophie. The problem is that in ''Series/{{Arrow}}'', Diggle, who is black, used the same disguise to prevent police from discovering that Oliver Queen was the Green Arrow, and showing Julia in the shadows could easily have fooled Sophie.

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* AssPull: Alice's "Work Release" program in Season 3. For the last two seasons Alice was Gotham's Number 1 Most Wanted for all of the death and destruction she caused, but is given what is pretty much a slap on the wrist and barely any oversight because she somehow has the knowledge of the different Rogue's Gallery items that the police are trying to find. Many called out this was solely done because the writers needed an excuse to keep Alice in the series, now that Kate was written off the show and she was a fan favorite character.

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* AssPull: AssPull:
**
Alice's "Work Release" program in Season 3. For the last two seasons Alice was Gotham's Number 1 Most Wanted for all of the death and destruction she caused, but is given what is pretty much a slap on the wrist and barely any oversight because she somehow has the knowledge of the different Rogue's Gallery items that the police are trying to find. Many called out this was solely done because the writers needed an excuse to keep Alice in the series, now that Kate was written off the show and she was a fan favorite character.character.
** Ryan made Acting CEO of Wayne Enterprise. The fact that Kate was revealed to be Acting CEO as well since this was never brought up in two seasons and the show heavily implied that Wayne Enterprise was a shell of its former self since Bruce disappeared. It also felt out of place because Ryan showed absolutely no skills or knowledge of how to run a massive multinational business empire, as her previous work experience was a bartender. It heavily felt like this was done because the writers wanted a reason for Ryan to be able to meet her mom who was also a Billionaire Business Owner.
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* AssPull: Alice's "Work Release" program in Season 3. For the last two seasons Alice was Gotham's Number 1 Most Wanted for all of the death and destruction she caused, but is given what is pretty much a slap on the wrist and barely any oversight because she somehow has the knowledge of the different Rogue's Gallery items that the police are trying to find. Many called out this was solely done because the writers needed an excuse to keep Alice in the series, now that Kate was written off the show and she was a fan favorite character.
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* {{Fanon}}: It is agreed among the fans and even the detractors that the sole reason that Kate Kane was not killed off, despite Ruby Rose having left the set with no desire to return and the director at the time flat out stating they were not going to recast Kate Kane, was because the staff were afraid that their fans would think they were using the BuryYourGays trope and be accused of homophobia.
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** The infamous ''"I'm a woman"'' song was obviously supposed to come off as impowering, but everyone online mocked it as blatant pandering.

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** The infamous ''"I'm a woman"'' song was obviously supposed to come off as impowering, empowering, but everyone online mocked it as blatant pandering.
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* RootingForTheEmpire: Alice has received this reaction from some for being a wonderful, scene-stealing LargeHam.

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* RootingForTheEmpire: Alice has received this reaction from some for being a wonderful, scene-stealing LargeHam. Even many detractors of the show had to admit she was the only reason they didn't think the show was completely terrible because she was so enjoyable to watch.
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** The infamous ''"I'm a woman"'' song was obviously supposed to come off as impowering, but everyone online mocked it as blatant pandering.
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*** Not to mention, anyone in the know about what was going on behind the scenes knew full well that Ruby Rose left the set with the director at the time stating the show was not going to replace Kate Kane with another actress. Making it excruciating to those viewers who watched all the characters trying to find someone they already knew wasn't going to be found and wondering why they didn't just kill her off.
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* ItsTheSameNowItSucks: One criticism of Ryan is that she gradually began taking on Kate's traits (from being the CEO of Wayne Enterprises to eventually hooking up with Sophie), when a major part of the rationale for creating her instead of recasting Kate was to have a character different from Kate who could still have the motivation to be a superhero.

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