History WMG / UminekoNoNakuKoroNi

*And let's not forget that Lambadelta bears a striking resemblance to Flandre Scarlet.

**** [[color:red: Kinzo is also listed as a person in red. According to the Fantasy Premise Kinzo is also the sorcerer Goldsmith. Sorcerer is the spear counterpart of witch.]] Therefore, [[color:blue: the existence of EVA and Virgilia is denied, which the Red Truth isn't allowed to do.]]

Finally, after assaulting Jessica, Kinzo was killed by Krauss. When "Umineko" starts, the nightmare should be over, but Kinzo�s influence made his family distrust each other, so they start killing each other - in a different way each arc.

* We cannot say whether there will be a twist or an untwist regarding this matter. If we, let's say, expect a twist regarding the nature of the red truth, and get an untwist, then that's a meta-twist by itself. However, if we expect an (un)twist, and get exactly that, then that's some sort of a meta-untwist. We can take this to the n-th degree, and end up completely confused. In the end however, this whole is binary - we will get either an n-th degree twist (1), or an n-th degree untwist (0) in the very end. I will now introduce the 'Schr�dinger truth': it lets us analyze the circumstances and draw a conclusion regarding the probability of there being a twist behind the red truth:

Suppose Shannon, Kanon, and Beatrice are all the same person. In that case, Beatrice is involved with each of the cousins (as Kanon with Jessica, as Shannon with George, as Beatrice with Battler and with Maria in the Mariage Sorci�re). Let Eva get too stressed and EVA-Beatrice appears. And of course, Kinzo was completely obsessed with Beatrice. All we need now is for Natsuhi and Kyrie to get in the act and every single Ushiromiya will either be Beatrice or be married to her.

** The person above shall no longer take any part in this game. [[strike:Speaking anything but the truth in red shows that he has no respect for the rules and is therefore not qualified to play.]] Erika used "人間", Battler/Beato used "人". The Witch Hunt translation is correct. Interestingly, "人間" can also mean "character" or "personality" ...

** The precise japanese phrases used in this example are [[http://tinyurl.com/25g58dp '人間']] (by Erika, WH translation 'humans') and [[http://tinyurl.com/3cn5ph '人']] (by Be/Ba, WH translation 'people'). [[color:red: These are different sequences of characters; arguments about them having different meanings can therefore not be dismissed at this time!]] In particular, the translation of '人間' as 'humans' is dubious since the term can apparently also be translated as 'character' or 'personality'. The possible implications of this should be obvious.

Finally, after assaulting Jessica, Kinzo was killed by Krauss. When "Umineko" starts, the nightmare should be over, but Kinzo´s influence made his family distrust each other, so they start killing each other - in a different way each arc.

* We cannot say whether there will be a twist or an untwist regarding this matter. If we, let's say, expect a twist regarding the nature of the red truth, and get an untwist, then that's a meta-twist by itself. However, if we expect an (un)twist, and get exactly that, then that's some sort of a meta-untwist. We can take this to the n-th degree, and end up completely confused. In the end however, this whole is binary - we will get either an n-th degree twist (1), or an n-th degree untwist (0) in the very end. I will now introduce the 'Schrödinger truth': it lets us analyze the circumstances and draw a conclusion regarding the probability of there being a twist behind the red truth:

Suppose Shannon, Kanon, and Beatrice are all the same person. In that case, Beatrice is involved with each of the cousins (as Kanon with Jessica, as Shannon with George, as Beatrice with Battler and with Maria in the Mariage Sorcière). Let Eva get too stressed and EVA-Beatrice appears. And of course, Kinzo was completely obsessed with Beatrice. All we need now is for Natsuhi and Kyrie to get in the act and every single Ushiromiya will either be Beatrice or be married to her.

** The person above shall no longer take any part in this game. [[strike:Speaking anything but the truth in red shows that he has no respect for the rules and is therefore not qualified to play.]] Erika used "人間", Battler/Beato used "人". The Witch Hunt translation is correct. Interestingly, "人間" can also mean "character" or "personality" ...

**** [[color:red:Telling someone that they cannot use the Golden Truth equates to saying that they don't understand the rules and Beato. Such statements should not be said lightly.]] Furthermore, due to the absence of an actual Game Master, [[hottip:*:[[color:red:I doubt Ryukishi would show up here, and if he did and made himself known, we'd all call bullshit, even me.]]]] I propose the Golden Truth should be used in this [=WMG=] to describe events '''AS THEY ACTUALLY HAPPENED''' rather than how others remembered/presented them.

****** (4th respondent here.) I don't do tea, sorry. Got any Mountain Dew? (OK, now I really think we need a chat room for this page.)

***** (Respondent here.) [[color:red:A diary belonging to Natsuhi was mentioned in [=EP5=].]] Battler can ask for the date of Kinzo's alleged death and compare Natsuhi's entry against that of a more "sane" person (say, Nanjo's records) and ''voila'', confirmation. [[color:purple:This is]] [[color:grey:(1)one of many possible ways|(2)the only possible way]] [[color:purple: for Battler to confirm Kinzo's death.]] It has been stated that Gold needs a check for absolute validity. Furthermore, anything said in Gold can be said in Red, but not always vice versa. Finally, [[color:red:Kinzo has been stated in Red to have already died before the events of October 4 and 5, 1986]], therefore, [[color:purple:Battler]] [[color:grey:(1)can|(2)must]] [[color:purple:use that as well to confirm that the corpse is Kinzo's.]] Counter that, if you can! You can't, can you? [[ThisIsSPARTA This! Is!]] '''''[[ThisIsSPARTA CHECKMAAAAAAAAAAAATE!!!]]'''''

[[WMG:EP6 Closed room with logic error isnot referring to the Guestroom but to the entire Manor]]
If we reread all the red texts concerning the Guestroom closed room. The term Closed room is not directly appointed to the guestroom.
As this tropes sees in the beginning of the sixth espisodes, there is a puzzle in witch the solution is to put one inside antoher.
What if the real closed room is the manor and the guestroom is a closed room inside another?

Not only does it make the story much more coherent, but Lambdadelta, someone who knows the entire truth, praised Battler for his "logic error", saying that he surpassed Bern as one who created miracles instead of waiting for one. And if there's a solution to it, then it wasn't really a Logic Error. It was all a Xanatos Gambit to force Beato to revive. He even goes so far as to awkwardly say, "Oh, if only the real Beatrice was here. She'd think of a solution in no time flat." And later, everyone is waiting for Beatrice to show up, to the point of calling her late! To say nothing of the Kinzo parallels of Battler trapping himself in an eternal locked room, pushing all his chips on one space to revive BEAOTRICHEE.

** The person above shall no longer take any part in this game. Speaking anything but the truth in red shows that he has no respect for the rules and is therefore not qualified to play. Erika used "人間", Battler/Beato used "人". The Witch Hunt translation is correct. Interestingly, "人間" can also mean "character" or "personality" ...
*** Oh, shit, I was totally thinking of a different--nevermind, I ballsed up the context. Also way to be a hypocrite; you're not allowed to use Gold if you're not the Gamemaster. So demoted and your decision repealed.

** [[color:gold:The person above shall no longer take any part in this game. Speaking anything but the truth in red shows that he has no respect for the rules and is therefore not qualified to play.]] Erika used "人間", Battler/Beato used "人". The Witch Hunt translation is correct. Interestingly, "人間" can also mean "character" or "personality" ...

* This theory is largely unneccesary. It's already been demonstrated that magical characters don't count as humans. [[color:red: And in most cases, 'human' and 'person' are derived from the same Japanese word in the translation, so trying to make a semantics argument that they're different doesn't work.]]

Given the rule that the Red Truth can't confirm or deny supernatural elements. How else would saying statements like [[color:red:"With my power, any kind of closed room can be created or destroyed"]] and [[color:red:"Your so-called candy magic is nothing more than a sleight of hand!! Just a sleight of hand that the fake witch calling herself Beatrice or whatever claimed was magic!!"]] be possible?]] Also, since the Red Truth is itself a supernatural element statements like [[color:red:Red only tells the truth]] don't contradict this theory.

This probably wouldn't help with finding the killer (kill the parent, take the stake), and each of them having the exact stake would be more of an ass-pull and push it back into fantasy. SoYeah...

*** [[strike:Interesting. This should get a SureWhyNot.]] EDIT: Apparently it's some kind of grimoire text. I went to a [[http://jbcs.info/Umineko/screenshot/generator.html screenshot generator for ''Umineko'']] and the text section had a hex code for green text, and called it "grimoire text", [[SoYeah so...]]

Kinzo, being a genius in the stock market, invested in nanomachine technology when he learned of his cancer, and secretly had a lab in the other mansion. Beatrice is the codename of the nanomachine project and the nanomachines were set loose by accident. The Golden butterflies illusion are a side effect of the nanomachines attacking the body. The Japanese government sealed of the island to take over the research. The pioneering work set by Kinzo's investment led to the events in the CowboyBebop Movie. SoYeah.

[[color:red: It is forbidden for the red to confirm or deny the existence of supernatural elements. "6 people: Kinzo, Genji, Shannon, Kanon, Gohda, and Kumasawa are dead!"]][[color:blue:Shows that furniture count as people. When combined with the fact ]] [[color:red:Battler saw every mundane character (except Erika), on the island, while he was the detective.]] [[color:blue: and]] [[color:red: "No more than 17 humans exist on this island!!"]][[color:blue:This denies the existence of the Stakes, the Siestas, Ronove, and Gaap. Which the Red Truth cannot do. But, if we take the later statement to mean "No more than 17 entities which meet some Criteria X (which I refuse to explain and could change at any point) exist on this island!!", then no problem arises. This also explains the apparent contradiction at the end of the sixth game different definitions of person were being used.]]

[[WMG: [[color:blue:Erika's last red truth and the Following Red Truth do not contradict each other]]]]

** [[color:red:This is plausible.]] Especially Rosa's part. [[color:blue:The other self that abuses Maria is called the Black Witch, hence why Maria refers to Rosa's violent outbursts as "being possessed by the Black Witch".]]

* I must say, I find this rather interesting. [[color:red: This is plausible.]]

* After checking the facts and making sure you did the math right, I say [[color:red:this is plausible]]. For those who are stumped or don't know what base 13 is, [[color:gold:9*6 in decimal is 54. 54 in base 13 is 42.]] Google "base 13" like I did and you'll find a converter from decimal (or base 10) to base 13, and it will verify this for you. While I'm here, I'll promote that Green Truth to Golden Truth since it's true no matter which way you look at it.

* [[color:red:This is plausible. It has not been determined if ''Umineko'' had been planned at the time that those poems had been written.]]

* [[color:red:This is plausible.]] I wouldn't be surprised if this was '''canon'''.

** Wrong. It was not a lie, as what it described really happened on the game board at this moment. So, it is more complicated than this. Probably something about a personal interpretation of something.

* [[color:Red:Knox's 8th! It is forbidden for the case to be resolved with clues that are not presented!]] Provide evidence to support your theory, or it will not be acknowledged.
** Not to mention it violates multiple Red Truths that mention the exact date, along with the entire 1998 plot.

( )( )( )( )
( )( )( )
( )( ) ( )
( )( )( )( ) (Does somebody know how to fix this? This and the thing below are supposed to look like the family tree table from the original V-novels, not like a heap of random brackets i keep getting on 'preview')

(x)(x)(x)(x)
(x)(x)(x)
(x)(x) (x)
(x)(x)(x)(x)

* Fail. You just jossed your own theory.

[[WMG: Okonogi is still evil, and may be the mastermind.]]
He was mentioned in EP1, so he technically counts, and he has deep connections with the Ushiromiya family through Rosa's branch. George even learned things from him, and it's implied he knows the younger servants. Considering his connections to the Sumadera to bump off Ange, and his speeches about Love, he seems like the type who would speak of love to naive teenagers to get them to go with his plans. Well, good thing for him there's two sappy teenage couples on the island, all four of them being highly suspicious and desperate to be with each other...