History Tropers / Malginel

* Literature/TheStormlightArchive: [[SatanicArchetype Rayse]], the Shardvessel of [[ThePowerOfHate Odium]], [[FauxAffablyEvil presents himself]] as a kindly father figure, hiding a vicious, [[TheCorrupter insidious]] tyrant. Intending to rule the Cosmere, Rayse eliminates Shards who could challenge him, one battle turning the planet [[Literature/ShadowsForSilenceInTheForestsOfHell Threnody]] into a DeathWorld. Coming to the Rosharan system, Rayse tricks the humans of Ashyn into devastating their own world, which [[InvadingRefugees led them conquering Roshar]], deposing the native Singers. [[ManipulativeBastard Recruiting the Singers with promises of revenge]], the best become his Fused, warriors who endlessly resurrect in new bodies, killing the original person, less sane each time, [[ResignationsNotAccepted with eternal torture for defection or defiance]]. When Honor seals Rayse on Braize using the Heralds, Rayse tortured the Heralds into releasing him, to wage brutal wars on Roshar that obliterate civilization, until the Heralds could seal him again, a cycle repeated over a dozen times. Sealed away by one Herald enduring torture for 4500 years, Rayse uses his limited influence to kill Honor, and spread wars on Roshar. Returning to start a new war, he frees the Singers from slavery, but forcibly conscripts them, conducting genocide on an independent Singer nation. When Dalinar Kholin negotiates with Rayse, Rayse attempts to [[MindRape forcibly convert]] Dalinar into freeing him. [[NotSoWellIntentionedExtremist Rayse]] claims he is best for Roshar, but only sees the inhabitants as troops "hardened" through his wars, to be unleashed in a mad crusade on the greater Cosmere.

* Literature/TheStormlightArchive: [[SatanicArchetype Rayse]], the Shardvessel of [[ThePowerOfHate Odium]], [[FauxAffablyEvil presents himself]] as a kindly father figure, which hides the vicious, [[TheCorrupter insidious]] despot underneath. Intending to rule the entire Cosmere, Rayse eliminates Shards who could challenge him, the aftereffects of one battle turning the planet Thernody into a DeathWorld. Coming to the Rosharan system, Rayse tricks to humans of Ashyn into devastating their own world, which [[InvadingRefugees led them conquering Roshar]], deposing the native Singers. [[ManipulativeBastard Recruiting the Singers with promises of revenge]], the best become his Fused, warriors who endlessly resurrect in new bodies, killing the original person, less sane each time, [[ResignationsNotAccepted eternal torture awaiting should they defect or disobey]]. When Honor seals Rayse on Roshar using the Heralds, Rayse tortured the Heralds into releasing him, to wage a brutal war on Roshar that obilterates civilization, leaving it on the verge of collapse until the Heralds could seal him again, a cycle repeated over a dozen times. Sealed away for 4500 years by one Herald, Rayse tortures him the whole time, using his limited influence to kill Honor, and spread wars on Roshar. Returning, he frees the Singers from slavery, but forcibly conscripts them, while conducting genocide on an independent Singer nation. When Dalinar Kholin tries to negotiate with Rayse, Rayse attempts to [[MindRape forcibly convert]] Dalinar into freeing him. Despite his claims he is the best choice for Roshar, [[NotSoWellIntentionedExtremist Rayse]] only views the inhabitants as potential troops to be "hardened" through war, that he will unleash in a mad crusade on the greater Cosmere, in a nightmare of slavery, blood and death.

* Literature/TheStormlightArchive: [[SatanicArchetype Rayse]], the Shardvessel of [[ThePowerOfHate Odium]], [[FauxAffablyEvil presents himself]] as a kindly father figure, which hides the vicious, [[TheCorrupter insidious]] despot underneath. Intending to rule the entire Cosmere, Rayse eliminates Shards who could challenge him, the aftereffects of one battle turning the planet Thernody into a DeathWorld. Coming to the Rosharan system, Rayse tricks to humans of Ashyn into devastating their own world, which [[InvadingRefugees led them conquering Roshar]], deposing the native Singers. [[ManipulativeBastard He recruits the Singers with promises of revenge]], the best becoming his Fused, warriors who endlessly resurrect in new bodies, killing the original person, less sane each time, [[ResignationsNotAccepted eternal torture awaiting should they defect or disobey]]. When Honor seals Rayse on Roshar using the Heralds, Rayse tortured the Heralds into releasing him, to wage a brutal war on Roshar that obilterates civilization, leaving it on the verge of collapse until the Heralds could seal him again, a cycle repeated over a dozen times. Sealed away for 4500 years by one Herald, Rayse tortures him the whole time, using his limited influence to kill Honor, and spread wars on Roshar. Returning, he frees the Singers from slavery, but forcibly conscripts them, while conducting genocide on an independent Singer nation. When Dalinar Kholin tries to negotiate with Rayse, Rayse attempts to [[MindRape forcibly convert]] Dalinar into freeing him. Despite his claims he is the best choice for Roshar, [[NotSoWellIntentionedExtremist Rayse]] only views the inhabitants as potential troops to be "hardened" through war, that he will unleash in a mad crusade on the greater Cosmere, in a nightmare of slavery, blood and death.

Got one I want to do from the very first Literature/TheCosmere book. While this characters arc is definitely not done, I think there's enough here, and given that the book came out in 2005, this character hasn't been mentioned since, and likely won't be until the sequel, that [[https://www.brandonsanderson.com/state-of-the-sanderson-2023/ the latest writing update has coming in five years]]...I think its good to do them now.

* Literature/TheStormlightArchive: [[SatanicArchetype Rayse]], the Shardvessel of [[ThePowerOfHate Odium]], [[FauxAffablyEvil presents himself]] as a kindly father figure, which hides the vicious, [[TheCorrupter insidious]] despot underneath. Intending to rule the entire Cosmere, Rayse targets other Shards who could challenge him, the aftereffects of one battle turning the planet Thernody into a DeathWorld. Coming to the Rosharan system, Rayse tricks to humans of Ashyn into devastating their own world, which [[InvadingRefugees led them conquering Roshar]], deposing the native Singers. [[ManipulativeBastard Placing himself what could bring the Singers revenge]], he recruits the best to be his Fused, warriors who endlessly resurrect in new bodies, killing the original person, less sane each time, [[ResignationsNotAccepted whilst eternal torture awaits should they defect or disobey]]. When Honor seals Rayse on Roshar using the Heralds, Rayse tortured the Heralds until they broke, before waging a brutal war on Roshar that leaves civilization devastated and on the verge of collapse until the Herald could seal him again, a cycle that repeated over a dozen times. Sealed away for 4500 years by one Herald, Rayse tortures him the whole time, using his limited influence to kill Honor, and spread wars on Roshar. Returning, he frees the Singers from slavery, but forcibly conscripts them, while conducting genocide on an independent Singer nation. When Dalinar Kholin tries to negotiate with Rayse, Rayse attempts to [[MindRape forcibly convert]] Dalinar into freeing him. Despite his claims he is the best choice for Roshar, [[NotSoWellIntentionedExtremist Rayse]] only views the inhabitants as potential troops to be "hardened" through war, that he will unleash in a mad crusade on the greater Cosmere, in a nightmare of slavery, blood and death.

* Literature/TheStormlightArchive: [[SatanicArchetype Rayse]], the Shardvessel of [[ThePowerOfHate Odium]], [[FauxAffablyEvil presents himself]] as a kindly father figure to follow, which hides the vicious, [[TheCorrupter insidious]] despot underneath. Intending to rule over the entire Cosmere, Rayse targets the other Shards who could challenge him, the aftereffects of one battle turning the planet Thernody into a DeathWorld. Coming to the Rosharan system, Rayse tricks to humans of Ashyn into devastating their own world, which [[InvadingRefugees led them conquering Roshar]], deposing the native Singers. [[ManipulativeBastard Placing himself as one who would grant the Singers revenge]], he recruits the best to be his Fused, warriors who endless resurrect in new bodies, killing the original person, losing sanity each time, [[ResignationsNotAccepted whilst eternal torture awaits should they defect or disobey]]. When Honor seals Rayse on Roshar using the Heralds, Rayse tortures them until they break, before waging a brutal war on Roshar that leaves civilization devastated and on the verge of collapse until the Herald could seal him again, a cycle that repeated over a dozen times. Sealed away for 4500 years by one Herald, Rayse tortures him the whole time, while using his limited influence to kill Honor, and spread wars on Roshar. Returning, he frees the Singers from slavery, but promptly conscripts them, while conducting a genocide on an independent Singer nation. When Dalinar Kholin tries to negotiate with Rayse, Rayse attempts to [[MindRape forcibly convert]] Dalinar into freeing him. Rayse asserts he is the best choice for Roshar, [[NotSoWellIntentionedExtremist but]] he only views the inhabitants as potential troops to be "hardened" through war, that he will unleash in a mad crusade on the greater Cosmere, in a nightmare of slavery, blood and death.

* Literature/TheStormlightArchive: [[SatanicArchetype Rayse]], the Shardvessel of [[ThePowerOfHate Odium]], [[FauxAffablyEvil presents himself]] as a kindly father figure to follow, which hides the vicious, [[TheCorrupter insidious]] despot underneath. Intending to rule over the entire Cosmere, Rayse targets the other Shardvessels who could challenge him, the aftereffects of one battle turning the planet Thernody into a DeathWorld. Coming to the Rosharan system, Rayse tricks to humans of Ashyn into devastating their own world, which [[InvadingRefugees led them conquering Roshar]], deposing the native Singers. [[ManipulativeBastard Placing himself as one who would grant the Singers revenge]], he recruits the best to be his Fused, warriors who endless resurrect in new bodies, killing the original person, losing sanity each time, [[ResignationsNotAccepted whilst eternal torture awaits should they defect or disobey]]. When Honor seals Rayse on Roshar using the Heralds, Rayse tortures them until they break, before waging a brutal war on Roshar that leaves civilization devastated and on the verge of collapse until the Herald could seal him again, a cycle that repeated over a dozen times. Sealed away for 4500 years by one Herald, Rayse tortures him the whole time, while using his limited influence to kill Honor, and spread wars on Roshar. Returning, he frees the Singers from slavery, but promptly conscripts them, while conducting a genocide on an independent Singer nation. When Dalinar Kholin tries to negotiate with Rayse, Rayse attempts to [[MindRape forcibly convert]] Dalinar into freeing him. Rayse asserts he is the best choice for Roshar, [[NotSoWellIntentionedExtremist but]] he only views the inhabitants as potential troops to be "hardened" through war, that he will unleash in a mad crusade on the greater Cosmere, in a nightmare of slavery, blood and death.

* Literature/TheStormlightArchive: [[SatanicArchetype Rayse]], the Shardvessel of [[ThePowerOfHate Odium]], [[FauxAffablyEvil presents himself]] as a kindly father figure to follow, which hides the vicious, [[TheCorrupter insidious]] despot underneath. Intending to rule over the entire Cosmere, Rayse targets the other Shardvessels who could challenge him, the aftereffects of one battle turning the planet Thernody into a DeathWorld. Coming to the Rosharan system, Rayse tricks to humans of Ashyn into devastating their own world, which [[InvadingRefugees led them conquering Roshar]], deposing the native Singers. [[ManipulativeBastard Placing himself as one who would grant the Singers revenge]], he recruits the best to be his Fused, warriors who endless resurrect in new bodies, killing the original person, losing sanity each time, [[ResignationsNotAccepted whilst eternal torture awaits should they defect or disobey]]. When Honor seals Rayse on Roshar using the Heralds, Rayse tortures them until they break, before waging a brutal war on Roshar that leaves civilization devastated and on the verge of collapse until the Herald could seal him again, a cycle that repeated over a dozen times. Sealed away for 4500 years by one Herald, Rayse tortures him the whole time, while using his limited influence to kill Honor, and spread wars on Roshar. Returning, he frees the Singers from slavery, but promptly conscripts them, while conducting a genocide on the independent Singer nation, the Listeners. When Dalinar Kholin tries to negotiate with Rayse, Rayse attempts to [[MindRape forcibly convert]] Dalinar into freeing him. Rayse asserts he is the best choice for Roshar, [[NotSoWellIntentionedExtremist but]] he only views the inhabitants as potential troops to be "hardened" through war, that he will unleash in a mad crusade on the greater Cosmere, in a nightmare of slavery, blood and death.

So [[Literature/TheStormlightArchive Rayse's]] writeup has a bunch of issues, and his [[https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/posts.php?discussion=6vic3f9h1cy5qivsenw8llok&page=9868#comment-246700 EP]] was...not good and has a lot of errors. He keeps (currently), but he was not thoroughly covered. This will be long given that there's a lot to go over an correct.

* ''Literature/TheStormlightArchive'': [[DiscOneFinalBoss Rayse]], the Vessel of [[ThePowerOfHate the Shard of Odium]], is a stern, tyrannical man who made it his mission to hunt down and sunder the other Shardborn. Heedless of who gets in his way, Rayse is willing to burn entire worlds to shatter the rest, having [[KillTheGod murdered those seen as "The Almighty"]] in the process while sowing his dark influence on worlds to create war and bloodshed until he can conquer or raze it to nothing. On the world where the series is set, Rayse's influence is responsible for the mental lobotomies and enslavement of the Parshendi race, the massive wars and the corruption of many others with [[BadBoss his own Fused being little more than slaves]] he will send to eternal damnation [[YouHaveFailedMe for failure]]. Arriving himself, Rayse intends to slaughter everything in the world until all that is left are him and his own twisted armies, a process he will repeat through the cosmos.

A bit of a note on what to call him, Shard Vessels get called by the name of their shard, which would be Odium, however to avoid confusion since the Shard Odium itself is its own thing, and there's Rayse's successor, Taravangian, also going by Odium now, just going to refer to the two Shard Vessels by their names, and only the Shard as Odium.

So first to start with some things that aren't quite right, or just straight up wrong:

[[folder:Some errors and other oddities with the writeup]]

* It is ''ridiculously'' inaccurate to say Rayse was responsible for the lobotomy and enslavement of the Parshendi. That happened midway through the time he was sealed away. It was caused by accident when a subordinate tried to connect to the Singers, only to get sealed by human forces, causing the Singers minds to break. Not wanting to waste all these now obedient creatures they had, ''humanity'' opted to enslave them. It was Rayse's ''lack'' of presence that caused this, and when he comes back he actually connects to the Singers, giving them their intelligence back and allowing them to escape slavery.
** If you're wondering if this is redeeming, it's not. He only wants the Singers to build a power base with, and doesn't care about them. Also many of his actions make it clear Rayse is no friend to the Singers. He's pretty much responsible for every ''other'' problem they face.
** Also to note a terminology error in the writeup, and to define these terms since they'll come up later, Parshedi is an Alethi word for a group of a race the Alethi call Parsh, whose proper name is the Singers, and the Parshendi are a group of Singers who call themselves the Listeners, who defected and did not connect during the False Desolation, making them the only Singers who were ''not'' lobotomized and enslaved. The Listeners then made their own civilization in isolation.
* Also while the Fused are pretty much slaves, there's no mention of Rayse eternally torturing them for failure, he resurrects them endlessly, although the process of ressurection is not fun, but not because Rayse made it so. Eternal damnation comes out when they try to ''defect'', not fail. It's also not clear if he's ever done this more than the one occasion we see.
* The writeup overstates Rayse's influence on planets outside Roshar. We only ''know of'' two he influenced, outside of the Rosharan system where Stormlight takes place, and only by collateral damage, one not badly at all, one VERY badly, with no mention of him starting wars or influencing people there. Basically Rayse just wanted to kill the Shards there, did, and left. It's unclear if he even had subordinates before Roshar, since its noted that Rayse was shifting to subtler methods because of him becoming the Shardic equivalent of DentedIron after his fights. It's only in Roshar where we see him influence people and start wars.
* Rayse dying and ''not'' being the BigBad of the Cosmere is probably the biggest plot twist in the whole thing, so DiscOneFinalBoss should probably not be his name pothole. SatanicArchetype doesn't have spoilers, and also describes his character.
* "The Almighty" is weirdly highlighted, as only Honor was called that (who Rayse ''did'' kill), and the name has no particular significance to Rayse.

Also I just want to note Rayse's characterization. The writeup only frames him as a crazed OmnicidalManiac, which while not ''completely'' incorrect, isn't quite right. The Shard Odium is like that (in a sense, as its a force of nature), but Rayse isn't. He's a lot more pragmatic and is majorly FauxAffablyEvil, with a sliver tongue. Additionally the EP said he was barred ''from'' Roshar when he was barred ''on'' Roshar, to prevent him from attacking the Greater Cosmere. The writeup framing him as purely as an uninhibited oncoming storm, and not a SealedEvilInACan entity scheming his way out. While this is a minor error, what is ''not'' is that the writeup states his goal is to wipe out all life on Roshar, which is ''directly'' contradicted by Rayse himself, when he and the de-facto BigGood Dalinar are negotiating terms for a CombatByChampion to end the war between their two factions.

''Rhythm of War'', Chapter 112
---> '''Rayse''': Do you know why I make men fight, Dalinar? Why I created the Thrill? Why I encourage the wars?
---> '''Dalinar''': To destroy us.
---> '''Rayse''': Why would I want to destroy you? I am your ''god'', Dalinar. I need soldiers. For the true battle that is coming, not one for one people or one miserable windswept continent. A battle for the gods. A battle for ''everything''. Roshar is a training ground. The time will come that I unleash you upon the others who are not nearly as well trained. Not nearly as ''hardened'' as I have made you.
--->[...]
---> '''Rayse''': If your champion wins, I will step away for a thousand years. I will retreat to Braize, and I will no longer speak to, contact, or influence the Fused or Voidspren. But I cannot contain them. And you will have to pray that your descendants are as lucky as you are, as I will be less...lenient when I return. [Dalinar goes to speak, Rayse interrupts] Let me finish, in exchange for you giving up one thing you wanted [[note]] sealing away the Fused and Voidspren [[/note]], I will give up my grand plans for Roshar. I will leave this planet for a thousand years, and abandon all I've worked for here. I give you and the singers freedom to make your own peace. Freedom for you, and freedom for me. This is all I ask for my victory: As you represent Honor, you can relax his prohibitions for me. No matter what happens in the contest, you never have to worry about me again. All I want is ''away from this miserable system''.

So in summary Rayse is DespotismJustifiesTheMeans type villain, not an OmnicidalManiac, let alone having specific intent to slaughter everything on Roshar. He's literally willing to abandon it without salvaging anything, because being stuck in one place has a tendency to stall plans of galactic conquest.

Also a note on the negotiation, he is being ''completely'' truthful about his terms, but this is purely pragmatic. This is purely pragmatic as he ''needs'' a magical contract like the one being negotiated for what's sealing him in the Rosharan system to be removed, and for that to work both parties need to understand completely the terms, and breaking those terms can result in lethal consequences, even for a god like Rayse. Also he uses every tactic in the book to try and bully his way into the most favorable terms.

Now for the actual main reason for this, while Rayse did not turn out to be the BigBad, he was still given the deeds of one. And one of ''those'' {{Big Bad}}s.To put it simply the current writeup is a bit vague and undersells Rayse, when it could get a ''lot'' more visceral and explicit. This will be long.

[[folder:A (mostly) complete list of Rayse's deeds]]

* Rayse went to the planet Sel, and killed the two shards there, Devotion and Dominion, shattering their power so it couldn't be used ever again, and in the process turning Sel's cognitive realm into a hellish storm.
** Don't know if this should be described in detail, as while its plot relevant, the incident isn't the most heinous. While torching Sel's cognitive realm makes it exceptionally difficult for people to get there (planetary travel is done through the cognitive realm), it didn't effect the people living on the planet proper that much. Sel's one of the most earth like planets in the Cosmere, which has quite a few {{Death World}}s, with thriving civilizations.
* Rayse fought the Shard Ambition over Threnody, the Shard Mercy joined in as well...in some way. The battle twisted everything on Thernody, Ambition fled, and Rayse finished her off somewhere else.
** ''This'' should be explicitly described on the writeup. While there's still a lot unexplained about it, such as anything to do with Mercy's involvement, Rayse is treated as the primary initiator, and Threnody has a serious contention for biggest DeathWorld in the Cosmere thanks a whole [[Literature/ShadowsForSilenceInTheForestsOfHell novella]] detailing how bad it is...''despite'' not showing the absolute worst parts of the planet, and this fight is to blame for that. It's the go to horror-story in the Cosmere when describing how destructive Shards can be, and why Rayse should ''never'' be allowed to leave Roshar.
** And this is just the place where Ambition was mortally wounded. We don't know what happened to the place where they ''died''.
* Rayse turns up in the Rosharan system, to kill Honor and Cultivation. He makes himself the god of the planet Ashyn, where humans lived, and manipulates one into dangerous experiments with Surges. This goes wrong, as Rayse planned, and turns Ashyn into a DeathWorld. Very few humans still live on Ashyn, and many have to flee to the planet Roshar, where the Singers, who worshiped Honor and Cultivation, live.
** Just to note that the timeline before Rayse arrives in the Rosharan system is very unclear, and hasn't been fully explained, there will likely be reveals of Rayse doing things in between Threnody and Roshar.
* It's not been completely explained what happened next, other than that war broke out between Humans and Singers. The Singers lost, and humans became the dominant species on Roshar. Somehow Shard allegiances swapped, as Honor and Cultivation began supporting humans, while the furious Singers went to Rayse, who offered revenge for what the humans did. The most elite Singers became the Fused.
** It's not particularly clear if Rayse started the war. He ''probably'' did, and either way he was the reason humans were there to start a conflict.
** This and the previous point are the inciting incident of the Stormlight Archive, they should be described directly in the writeup.
* The Fused don't have it to well. There are always resurrected, losing a bit of their sanity each time. Some have only minor effects, but some of gone completely insane. We see one Fused put a lot of effort to find a way to make themselves DeaderThanDead so they don't inevitably those their mind eventually. And of course ResignationsNotAccepted under penalty of eternal torture...though its important to note again, that its not clear if Rayse has ever done that any time other than the one Fused defection we see. Also for the Fused to resurrect, every time they must take the body of a Singer, kill them in the process.
* Then comes the Desolations, when Rayse waged war on humanity, and therefore Honor and Cultivation. Each one was a war several years long, with horrific damage. One account we get after a Desolation mentions a kingdom who took the brunt of the assault lose '''''ninety''''' percent of its population, several other kingdoms got wiped off the map, nearly every family had lost half its members, and civilization was on the verge of collapse. This is pretty typical for a Desolation, and there were a bit more than a dozen of them. The damage accrued over time and the once pre-industrial civilizations had been sent back to the stone age by the end.
* A note on how Desolations started and ended. The Heralds sealed him away to end them, and to break his seal Rayse tortured them until they gave in and released him, which could be centuries. The Heralds eventually gave up and left one of their own, Taln, who had never given in, to seal Rayse by himself. It took Rayse 4500 years to find another way to unseal himself, but that isn't from a lack of torturing Taln that whole time. Taln pretty much an EmptyShell by the time of the series.
** The most uniquely horrible crime Rayse has, and plot relevant. Very notable omission on the current writeup.
* During this time he was able to get release one of his Unmade, Nergaoul, onto Roshar. It has the effect of turning everyone in its vicinity into a rampaging brute. The Alethi got a particularly notable exposure that resulted in them gaining "The Thrill" in battle, which has the effect of basically making intense combat addictive. The results are predictable.
* At the start of the series a subordinate, Ulim, schemes to send the Listeners into a war with the Alethi, before tricking them into taking forms of power than brainwash them into summoning the Everstorm, and therefore Odium. It's not clear how much Rayse had to do with Ulim's schemes, but Rayse definitely did use the Everstorm, which he directly controls to wipe out the Listeners, because they were Singers with a culture independent of him, and he can't have that. The few survivors were rounded up and "rewarded" by being used as vessels for the Fused. Rayse spare one, Venli, to spread the word amongst the newly un-lobotmised Singer of the Listeners "noble sacrifice". When she starts going through the motions Rayse puts Venli of a vision of her being slowly vaporized by a star, with fully simulated pain, to make sure she knows she needs to propagandize better.
** This is a very uniquely heinous series of events, (I'm just waiting for Ulim's arc to be over before I propose him, entirely because of this) that should be described at least partially in the writeup. In particular this is only one of three explicit genocides in the Cosmere, and one of those was stopped before it really got going, while the other was only described as part of the backstory.
* The Everstorm sweeps across and devastates Roshar. Grain silos are taken out, leaving many places on the verge of famine. The city of Thaylenah goes from a ShiningCity to looking like an active warzone, with explicit on-screen casualties.
* While Rayse frees the Singers, he promptly has them all forced into serving him, and has an quisling Alethkar army attack Thaylenah under the Thrill to demonstrate his power to the Singers, and how grand it is to serve him.
* Dalinar comes out to negotiate a contest of champions to end the war (not the one I quoted), with Dalinar fighting Rayse's champion, Rayse being the [[SarcasmMode honorable fellow that he is]] selects Dalinar to be ''his'' champion, and tries to [[MindRape Mind Raping]] Dalinar into joining Odium, the pain so intense that Dalinar ''ripping off his fingernails'' is not enough to distract his mind. In particular Rayse focuses on Dalinar's painful memories of war crimes he committed under the Thrill, specifically one time Dalinar accidentally burned his own wife, as well as a bunch of children, to death, with Rayse trying to convince Dalinar that since those acts were influenced by the Thrill, they are Rayse's fault not Dalinar...which would means that Dalinar has no agency and is therefore a slave of Rayse.
** This one's really notable characterization-wise for Rayse, as he had previously gone about how he was the best god as only he truly understood emotions, with this incident making it clear that Rayse's "understanding" effectively means that everyone is a mindless slave to fight and die for him. Also when Dalinar resists, Rayse drops if faux affability and flips his shit, shouting at the Fused to kill Dalinar, the first time Rayse's mask slips, and his affability becomes noticeably thinner afterwards in all following scenes.
* Sore after his loss, Rayse goes to negotiate with Taravangian, who is trying to trick Rayse into binding himself so that he can't hurt Roshar, and Rayse promptly begin to bully Taravangian, revealing that he sees right through his plan, and getting Taravangian to go from wanting to bargain for Roshar's safety to just his home city's safety, only given Taravangian that because he makes an argument that he might be useful.
** This one's plot relevant, but it doesn't have Rayse do much heinous beyond acting like an extremely petty jackass.
* While Rayse had agreed to a contest of champions, and therefore needs to hold a negotiation, there's no time limit so Rayse doesn't come to the table, dragging the war out for a year while he tries to get himself the most favorable conditions to negotiate. It isn't until a gambit of having the main armies of the heroes distracted, throwing away Taravangian in the process, to try and seize their main capital while they're gone, fails, (the Fused defection happens here) alongside Dalinar growing in power, that Rayse comes negotiate purely out of fear.
* He also had another instance of MindRape when he targeted the chronically depressed Kaladin to be his champion, giving him hellish nightmares that specifically preyed upon all of Kaladin's worst fears. This goes on for a good bit, and is shown explicitly as Kaladin has the most POV segments of any character in the series.
* During the negotiation its made clear Rayse will drag the war on forever if he doesn't get something he wants. It's ultimately agreed that if Rayse wins, he gets Dalinar's soul to be used as his champion in conquest. Rayse doesn't get to act on much else, given he dies is the literal next chapter.
* Also while the writeup is not completely accurate in giving Rayse omnicidal goals, it made very clear that he's got very destructive plans for the Cosmere is he ever escapes Roshar. One text passage particularly sells how heinous they are:
''Rhythm of War'', Interlude 6
---> Odium still intended to use all of humankind as his frontline troops, once he won Roshar. He would throw their lives away, turn them into slaves focused on fueling his war with the heavens. [...] This would be a drawn out nightmare of slavery, blood, and death.

So in summary Rayse is the most heinous in the Cosmere, full stop, and is one of two villains in the Cosmere, the other being the [[Literature/MistbornTheOriginalTrilogy Lord Ruler]], who I would consider to go beyond just bad enough to qualify, and are truly ''exceptional'' in their heinousness, and I don't think the current writeup quite gets that across.

Also I do want to touch on some potential redeeming traits, since his EP only addressed whether he has agency. Rayse is truly faux affable, with BaddieFlattery and acting like a father figure. he also has things like offering Dalinar a waterskin after Rayse shows him the true extent of Odium, or calling one Fused an old friend. but he's highly manipulative, wants to be worshiped, seemingly doesn't do equal relationships, and is very condescending. He also bluntly threatens to kill that Fused when they question his decisions. Not to mention Rayse's affability drops quick when things don't go his way. Rayse also does build an actually functional and decent civilization for the freed Singers, which gets legitimate, non-fanatical, loyalty from some of them, but as I mentioned this is just pragmatic building of a power base, and the Singers are nothing more than a resource to Rayse. Additionally, what happened to the Listeners, and his reaction to Fused defecting shows he will remove Singers if they stray from what he wants them to be. Overall he's very delusional and manipulative, and at his core just wants to rule over everyone, but this still needs to be explained in the writeup since these are things that might seem redeeming at first glance that are very prominent in his characterization.

And finally...I don't actually have a new writeup because between the sheer amount of crimes with uniquely heinous details, and as well as there being potential redeeming traits needing to be addressed in the writeup, it will be a very long writeup. Furthermore, Rayse still has a '''''lot''''' about him that has not been explored, in particular I noted several places where his crimes have not been fully explained yet, meaning he will likely need an expansion, possibly even significant expansion. With that I'm not sure specifically what should go on the writeup, whilst still leaving room to expand, and the reason for all this, beyond making sure this thread has a better understanding of the character, is to ask for advice on how to handle this.

One last thing I just want to note, is that just because Rayse is dead, does not mean its the last we here about him, and aside from more crimes, he could be potentially given redeeming features. Something that particularly comes to mind is that the aforementioned Lord Ruler appeared to be close to this trope when he died, only for him to be gradually revealed to be essentially a sympathetic AntiHero, '''''entirely posthumously'''''. While I don't think Rayse will gets something quite so dramatic, there are a couple of scenes that hint at sympathetic HiddenDepths. Just wanted to note that I'm asking for help on a character that could have to go in when Book 5 comes out in December.
----
[[folder:Wyrn Wulfden the Fourth CM EP]]
Got one I want to do from the very first Literature/TheCosmere book. While this characters arc is definitely not done, I think there's enough here, and given that the book came out in 2005, this character hasn't been mentioned since, and likely won't be until the sequel, that [[https://www.brandonsanderson.com/state-of-the-sanderson-2023/ the latest writing update has coming in five years]]...I think its good to do them now.

'''What's the Work?'''

Literature/Elantris is the debut novel of Brandon Sanderson, mostly standalone but with set up for a full trilogy, that will release...[[ScheduleSlip sometime...]]

It follows the nation of Arelon, where people at random can become Elantrians, who are effectively immortal demigods. A couple years before the story something went ''very'' wrong and the Elantrians effectively became walking corpses, and the whole nations kinda collapsed. Arelon has somewaht rebuilt itself since, but is a bit volatile. A particular issue is that people have not stopped becoming decayed Elantrians, which really causes a conundrum when the popular Crown Prince, Raoden, becomes an Elantrian...right when he was supposed to marry Princess Sarene from the neighboring Teod.

But that's not Arelon's biggest problem, as they, along with Teod are one of two countries that follow the religion of Shu-Korath, while there's the empire of Fjordell, which follows the rival branch Shu-Dereth. [[{{Understatement}} And they're not very tolerant]]. The leader of Fjordell, Wyrn Wulfden the Fourth sends a Derethi Gyorn, a warrior priest, Hrathen, to covert Arelon in three months, otherwise Fjordell will wipe the country out. But if Hrathen suceeds, Wyrn will accept Arelon under Shu-Dereth...right?

Yeah. Not quite.

'''Who is Wyrn Wulfden the Fourth? What has he done?'''

Wulfden became the Wyrn as a young man, very interested in spreading Shu-Dereth.

[[/folder]]

[[folder:Hrathen MB EP]]
[[/folder]]

* At the start of the series a subordinate, Ulim, schemes to send the Listeners into a war with the Alethi, before tricking them into taking forms of power than brainwash them into summoning the Everstorm, and therefore Odium. It's not clear how much Rayse had to do with Ulim's schemes, but Rayse definitely did use the Everstorm, which he directly controls to wipe up the Listeners, because they were Singers with a culture independent of him, and he can't have that. The few survivors were rounded up and "rewarded" by being used as vessels for the Fused. Rayse spare one, Venli, to spread the word amongst the newly un-lobotmised Singer of the Listeners "noble sacrifice". When she starts going through the motions Rayse puts Venli of a vision of her being slowly vaporized by a star, with fully simulated pain, to make sure she knows she needs to propagandize better.

Also I do want to touch on some potential redeeming traits, since his EP only addressed whether he has agency. Rayse is truly faux affable, with BaddieFlattery and acting like a father figure. he also has things like offering Dalinar a waterskin after Rayse shows him the true extent of Odium, or calling one Fused an old friend. but he's highly manipulative, wants to be worshiped, seemingly doesn't do equal relationships, and is very condescending. He also bluntly threatens to kill that Fused when they question his decisions. Not to mention Rayse's affability drops quick when things don't go his way. Rayse also does build an actually functional and decent civilization for the freed Singers, which gets legitimate, non-fanatical, loyalty from some of them, but as I mentioned this is just pragmatic building of a power base, and the Singers are nothing more than a resource to Rayse. Overall he's very delusional and manipulative, and at his core just wants to rule over everyone, but this still needs to be explained in the writeup since these are things that might seem redeeming at first glance that are very prominent in his characterization.

Also I just want to note Rayse's characterization. The writeup only frames him as a crazed OmnicidalManiac, which while not ''completely'' incorrect, isn't quite right. The Shard Odium is like that (in a sense, as its a force of nature), but Rayse isn't. He's a lot more pragmatic and is majorly FauxAffablyEvil. Additionally the EP said he was barred ''from'' Roshar when he was barred ''on'' Roshar, to prevent him from attacking the Greater Cosmere. The writeup framing him as purely as an uninhibited oncoming storm, and not a SealedEvilInACan entity scheming his way out. While this is a minor error, what is ''not'' is that the writeup states his goal is to wipe out all life on Roshar, which is ''directly'' contradicted by Rayse himself, when he and the de-facto BigGood Dalinar are negotiating terms for a CombatByChampion to end the war between their two factions.

Also I do want to touch on some potential redeeming traits, since his EP only addressed whether he has agency. Rayse is truly faux affable, with BaddieFlattery and acting like a father figure. he also has things like offering Dalinar a waterskin after Rayse shows him the true extent of Odium, or calling one Fused an old friend. but he's highly manipulative, wants to be worshiped, seemingly doesn't do equal relationships, and is very condescending. He also bluntly threatens to kill that Fused when they question his decisions. Not to mention Rayse's affability can drop quick when things don't go his way. Rayse also does build an actually functional and decent civilization for the freed Singers, which gets legitimate, non-fanatical, loyalty from some of them, but as I mentioned this is just pragmatic building of a power base. Overall he's very delusional and manipulative, wanting to rule over everyone, but this still needs to be explained in the writeup since these things that might seem redeeming at first glance are very prominent in his characterization.

One last thing I just want to note, is that just because Rayse is dead, does not mean its the last we here about him, and aside from more crimes, he could be potentially given redeeming features. Something that particularly comes to mind is that the aforementioned Lord Ruler appeared to be close to this trope when he died, only for him to be gradually revealed to be essentially a sympathetic AntiHero, '''''entirely posthumously'''''. While I don't think Rayse will gets something quite so dramatic, there are a couple of scenes that hint at sympathetic HiddenDepths. Just wanted to note that I'm asking for help on a character that could have to go in when Book 5 comes out in December.

** I don't think I need to explain why the current writeup doesn't quite explain how bad these were.

* While Rayse frees the Singers, he promptly has them all forced into serving him, and has an quisling Alethkar army attack Thaylenah under the Thrill to demonstrate his power to the Singers, and how grand it is to serve him. Dalinar comes out to negotiate a contest of champions to end the war (not the one I quoted), with Dalinar fighting Rayse's champion, Rayse being the [[SarcasmMode honorable fellow that he is]] selects Dalinar to be ''his'' champion, and tries to [[MindRape Mind Raping]] Dalinar into joining Odium, the pain so intense that Dalinar ''ripping off his fingernails'' is not enough to distract his mind. In particular Rayse focuses on Dalinar's painful memories of war crimes he committed under the Thrill, specifically one time Dalinar accidentally burned his own wife, as well as a bunch of children, to death, with Rayse trying to convince Dalinar that since those acts were influenced by the Thrill, they are Rayse's fault not Dalinar...which would means that Dalinar has no agency and is therefore a slave of Rayse.
** This one's really notable as Rayse had previously gone on previously about how he was the best god as only he truly understood emotions, with this incident making it clear that Rayse's "understanding" effectively means that everyone is a mindless slave to fight and die for him. Also when Dalinar resists, Rayse drops if faux affability and flips his shit, shouting at the Fused to kill Dalinar, the first time Rayse's mask slips, and his affability becomes noticeably thinner afterwards in all following scenes.

* Also while the writeup is not completely accurate in giving Rayse omnicidal goals, it made very clear that he's got very destructive plans for the Cosmere is he ever escapes Roshar. I'll just cite the text for this one, since I can't describe it any better.

And finally...I don't actually have a new writeup because between the sheer amount of crimes with uniquely heinous details, and as well as there being potential redeeming traits needing to be addressed in the writeup, it will be a very long writeup. Furthermore, Rayse still has a '''''lot''''' about him that has not been explored, in particular I noted several places where his crimes have not been fully explained yet, meaning he will likely need an expansion, possibly even significant expansion. With that I'm not sure specifically what should go on the writeup, whilst still leaving room to expand, and the reason for all this, beyond making sure this thread has a better understanding of the character, is to ask for advice on how to handle this.

Now for the actual main reason for this, while Rayse did not turn out to be the BigBad, he was still given the deeds of one. And one of ''those'' {{Big Bad}}s.To put it simply the current writeup is a bit vague and undersells Rayse, when it could get a ''lot'' more visceral and explicit. This will be ''long''.

* Sore after his loss, Rayse goes to negotiate with Taravangian, who is trying to trick Rayse into binding himself so that he can't hurt Roshar, and Rayse promptly begin to bully Tarvangian, revealing that he sees right through his plan, and getting Taravangian to go from wanting to bargain for Roshar's safety to just his home city's safety, only given Taravangian that because he makes an argument that he might be useful.
** This one's plot relevant, but it doesn't have rayse do much heinous beyond acting like an extremely petty jackass.
* While Rayse had agreed to a contest of champions, and therefore needs to hold a negotiation, there's no time limit so Rayse doesn't come to the table, dragging the war out for a year while he tries to get himself the most favorable conditions to negotiate.
[[/folder]]

So [[Literature/TheStormlightArchive Rayse's]] writeup has a bunch of issues, including incorrect information, not really characterizing him well, and some very notable missing crimes, needing a significant rewrite. This will be long given there a lot to cover.

** Also to note a terminology error in the writeup, and to define these terms since they'll come up later, Parshedi is an Alethi word for a group of a race the Alethi call Parsh, whose proper name is the Singers, and the Parshendi are a group of Singers who call themselves the Listeners who defected and did not connect during the False Desolation, making them the only Singers who were ''not'' lobotomized and enslaved. The Listeners then made their own civilization in isolation.
* Also while the Fused are pretty much slaves, there's no mention of Rayse eternally torturing them for failure, he resurrects them endlessly. Eternal damnation comes out when they try to ''defect'', not fail. It's also not clear if he's ever done this more than the one occasion we see.

Also I just want to note Rayse's characterization. The writeup only frames him as a crazed OmnicidalManiac, which while not ''completely'' incorrect, isn't quite right. He's hyped up to act like that, and the Shard Odium is like that (in a sense, as its a force of nature), but the story deliberately makes a point of having Rayse act notably different than expected. He's a lot more pragmatic and is majorly FauxAffablyEvil. Most relevant is that the writeup states his goal is to wipe out all life on Roshar, which is ''directly'' contradicted by Rayse himself, when he and Dalinar are negotiating terms for a CombatByChampion to end the war between their two factions.

Also a note on the negotiation, he is being ''completely'' truthful about his terms, but this is purely pragmatic. He ''needs'' a magical contract like the one being negotiated for what's sealing him in the Rosharan system to be removed, and for that to work both parties need to understand completely the terms, and breaking those terms can result in lethal consequences, even for a god like Rayse. Also, this contract is central to the plot, as the heroes don't believe they can defeat Rayse, instead trying to seal him away again. Now, the writeup framing him as purely as an uninhibited oncoming storm, and not a SealedEvilInACan entity scheming his way out, and is an oncoming storm through the culmination of those schemes, isn't the biggest thing in terms of CM status, it just doesn't contextualize him quite right, which I feel should be corrected.

Now for the actual main reason for this, while Rayse did not turn out to be the BigBad, he was still given the deeds of one. And one of ''those'' {{Big Bad}}s.To put it simply the current writeup is a bit vague and undersells Rayse, when it could get a ''lot'' more visceral and explicit.

And yes, this will be ''long''.

** The most uniquely horrible crime Rayse has, and plot revelvant. Very notable omission on the current writeup.

** This is a very uniquely heinous series of events, (I'm just waiting for Ulim's arc to be over before I propose him, entirely because of this) that should be described at least partially in the writeup. In particular this is only one of three explicit genocides in the Cosmere, one of those was stopped before it really got going, and the other was only described as part of the backstory.

* It is ''ridiculously'' inaccurate to say Rayse was responsible for the lobotomy and enslavement of the Parshendi. That happened about 2000 years into the 4500 years between him getting sealed at the end of the [[GreatOffscreenWar Desolations]] and the main timeline of the series featuring his return. It was caused by accident when a subordinate tried to connect to the Singers, whom the Parshedi are just one group of, called the False Desolation, only to get sealed by human forces, causing the Singers minds to break. Not wanting to waste all these now obedient creatures they had, ''humanity'' opted to enslave them. It was Rayse's ''lack'' of presence that caused this, and when he comes back he actually connects to the Singers, giving them their intelligence back and allowing them to escape slavery.

** Also to note a terminology error in the writeup, and to define these terms since they'll come up later, Parshedi is an Alethi word for a group of a race the Alethi call Parsh, whose proper name is the Singers, and the Parshendi are a group of Singers who call themselves the Listeners who defected and did not connect during the False Desolation, making them the only Singers who were ''not'' lobotomized and enslaved. The Listeners then made their own civilization in isolation, until encountering humans shortly before the series starts, and being quite disturbed by all the other beings like them that the humans had as slaves.
* Also while the Fused are pretty much slaves, there's no mention of Rayse eternally torturing them for failure, he resurrects them endlessly. Eternal damnation comes out when they try to ''defect'', not fail.
* The writeup overstates Rayse's influence on planets outside Roshar, and makes him come off as a GalacticConquerer, which he wasn't. We only ''know of'' two he influenced, outside of the Rosharan system where Stormlight takes place, and only by collateral damage, one not badly at all, one VERY badly, with no mention of him starting wars or influencing people there. Basically Rayse just wanted to kill the Shards there, did, and left. It's unclear if he even had subordinates before Roshar, since its noted that Rayse was shifting to subtler methods because of him becoming the Shardic equivalent of DentedIron after his fights. It's only in Roshar where we see him influence people and start wars.

Also I just want to note Rayse's characterization. The writeup portrays him as nothing more than a brutal, rampaging, OmnicidalManiac, which while not ''completely'' incorrect, isn't quite right. He's hyped up to act like that, and the Shard Odium is like that (in a sense, as its a force of nature), but the story deliberately makes a point of having Rayse act notably different than expected. He's a lot more pragmatic and is majorly FauxAffablyEvil. Most relevant is that the writeup states his goal is to wipe out all life on Roshar, which is ''directly'' contradicted by Rayse himself, when he and Dalinar are negotiating terms for a CombatByChampion to end the war between their two factions.

---> '''Rayse''': If your champion wins, I will step away for a thousand years. I will retreat to Braize, and I will no longer speak to, contact, or influence the Fused or Voidspren. But I cannot contain them. And you will have to pray that your descendents are as lucky as you are, as I will be less...lenient when I return. [Dalinar goes to speak, Rayse interrupts] Let me finish, in exchange for you giving up one thing you wanted [[note]] sealing away the Fused and Voidspren [[/note]], I will give up my grand plans for Roshar. I will leave this planet for a thousand years, and abandon all I've worked for here. I give you and the singers freedom to make your own peace. Freedom for you, and freedom for me. This is all I ask for my victory: As you represent Honor, you can relax his prohibitions for me. No matter what happens in the contest, you never have to worry about me again. All I want is ''away from this miserable system''.

So in summary Rayse is DespotismJustifiesTheMeans type villain, than an OmnicidalManiac, let alone having specific intent to slaughter everything on Roshar. He's literally willing to abandon it without salvaging anything, because being stuck in one place has a tendency to stall plans of galactic conquest.

''Finally'', we get to the main reason for this, for you see, while Rayse did not turn out to be the BigBad, he was still given the deeds of one. And one of ''those'' {{Big Bad}}s.To put it simply the current writeup is a bit vague and kind of undersells Rayse, when it could get a ''lot'' more visceral and explict.

* Rayse turns up in the Rosharan system, to kill Honor and Cultivation. He makes himself the god of the planet Ashyn, where humans lived, and manipulates one Ishar into dangerous experiments with Surges. This of course, goes wrong, just as Rayse planned, and wouldn't you know it, turns Ashyn into a DeathWorld. Very few humans still live on Ashyn, and many have to flee to the planet Roshar, where the Singers, who worshiped Honor and Cultivation, live.

* It's not been completely explained what happened next, other than that war broke out between Humans and Singers, and Rayse had something to do with it. The Singers lost, and humans became the dominant species on Roshar. Somehow Shard allegiances swapped, as Honor and Cultivation began supporting humans, while the furious Singers went to Rayse, who offered revenge for what the humans did, that was ''definitely not'' started by Rayse himself. The most elite Singers became the Fused.

[[WMG:[[center:[-''Manga/FullmetalAlchemist'' '''[[Characters/FullmetalAlchemist Main Character Index]]'''\\
[[Characters/FullmetalAlchemistBrothers Elric Brothers]] | [[Characters/FullmetalAlchemistTeamMustang Team Mustang]] | [[Characters/FullmetalAlchemistMainSupportingCast Main Supporting Cast]] | [[Characters/FullmetalAlchemistMilitary Military]] | [[Characters/FullmetalAlchemistHomunculi Homunculi]] ([[Characters/FullmetalAlchemistFather Father]], [[Characters/FullmetalAlchemistEnvy Envy]], [[Characters/FullmetalAlchemistHomunculiAffiliates Affiliates]]) | [[Characters/FullmetalAlchemistXing Xing]] | [[Characters/FullmetalAlchemistOthers Others]] | [[Characters/FullmetalAlchemist2003 2003 Anime]] ([[Characters/FullmetalAlchemist2003MainCharacters Main Characters]]) ([[Characters/FullmetalAlchemist2003Homunculi Homunculi]])-]]]]]
----

Also a note on the negotiation, he is being ''completely'' truthful about his terms, but this is purely pragmatic. He ''needs'' a magical contract like the one being negotiated for what's sealing him in the Rosharan system to be removed, and for that to work both parties need to understand completely the terms, and breaking those terms can result in lethal consequences, even for a god like Rayse. Also, this contract is central to the plot, as the heroes don't believe they can defeat Rayse, instead trying to seal him away again. Now, the writeup framing him as purely as an unhibited oncoming storm, and not a SealedEvilInACan entity scheming his way out, and is an oncoming storm through the culmination of those schemes, isn't the biggest thing in terms of CM status, it just doesn't contextualize him quite right, which I feel should be corrected.

So [[Literature/TheStormlightArchive Rayse's]] writeup has a bunch of issues, including incorrect information, some very notable missing crimes, and overall not really portraying his characterization well, needing a significant rewrite. This will be a bit long given there a lot to cover.

So first to start with some inaccuracies:

[[folder:Some Errors with the writeup]]

* It is '''''COMPLETELY''''' inaccurate to say Rayse was responsible for the lobotomy and enslavement of the Parshendi. That happened about 2000 years into the 4500 years between him getting sealed at the end of the [[GreatOffscreenWar Desolations]] and the main timeline of the series featuring his return. It was caused by accident when a subordinate tried to connect to the Singers, whom the Parshedi are just one group of, called the False Desolation, only to get sealed by human forces, causing the Singers minds to break. Not wanting to waste all these now obedient creatures they had, ''humanity'' opted to enslave them. It was Rayse's ''lack'' of presence that caused this, and when he comes back he actually connects to the Singers, giving them their intelligence back and allowing them to escape slavery.
** If you're wondering if this is redeeming, it's not. He only wants the Singers to build a power base with, and doesn't care about them. Also some other stuff I'll cover makes it clear Rayse is no friend to the Singers.

* Also while the Fused are pretty much slaves, there's no mention of Rayse eternally torturing them for failure, he resurrects them endlessly. Eternal damnation comes out when they try to defect.

* "The Almighty'' is weirdly highlighted, only Honor was called that (who Rayse did kill), and the name has no particular significance to Rayse.

Of particular note is Rayse's characterization. The writeup portrays him as nothing more than a brutal, rampaging, OmnicidalManiac, which while not ''completely'' incorrect, isn't quite right. He's hyped up to be like that, but the story makes a point of making him act differently when he actually appears,

Of particular note is Rayse's characterization. The writeup portrays him as nothing more than a brutal, rampaging, OmnicidalManiac, which while not ''completely'' incorrect, isn't quite right. He's hyped up to be like that, but the story makes a point of making him act differently when he actually appears,

----

So I was waiting for Paul's proposal for this, as it more relates to him, but since I'm not sure when that will happen I'm just going to say may piece now. I will also say I haven't read the books.

I feel like Paul or Jessica being listed as {{MagnificentBastard}}s goes against the point of the story and I think they should not be listed.

Basically as I understand a MagnificentBastard is inherently supposed to get you to be on their side and root for them, and that's not supposed to be undercut. The vault opening scene in ''Film/DieHard'' is something I think of here, that while Hans' crew aren't particularly sympathetic, Hans being an outright CompleteMonster and all, in that scene we get a clear moment of triumph that the film plays for all its worth to make you get on their side. Notably despite the film at other points portraying the whole thing being robbery as a little petty for all that happens, in this scene it definitely doesn't, and that invokes the MagnificentBastard reaction.

However when we see a similar moment of triumph in ''Film/DunePartTwo'', specifically Paul asserting his position as Lisan al Gaib, rather than portraying the moment as purely awe-inspiring, we get Chani objecting harshly to what's happening, and there no compelling argument offered up in the story on why she's wrong, instead she's just pulled down and told to shut up. Again at the ending Paul claims his throne, Chani is disgusted with Paul marrying Irulan, and the very last shot of the movie is her leaving out of disgust. Chani's seems to be set up as the AudienceSurrogate who is meant to react how the film wants us to react to what Paul and Jessica do, and it not a reaction anywhere close to respect or admiration.

Yeah Paul and Jessica are charismatic, but the film portrays them corrupting the Fremen as something that makes them repulsive demagogues, and I do mean repulsive, not just what the "bastard" part is supposed to represent. That the "not too detestable" part of the trope isn't part of their characterization, and that they are not really ALighterShadeOfBlack, and are pretty much no better than their enemies, which them having cool factors and redeeming traits doesn't cover.

Not to mention the entire main theme of the story is to warn against follower messiah figures like Paul, and that Frank Herbert wrote the story to critique the glorification of heroes, and this trope by its nature glorifies the characters listed.

To me this feels similar to how on the CM thread [[Manga/VinlandSaga King Sweyn]] was turned down despite his redeeming traits seeming very questionable, because listing a character as irredeemably evil goes against the manga's themes of no one being irredeemably evil. In the same way, I don't think characters should be listed on a trope that puts them on a pedestal, when the central point of the story is that they should not be put on a pedestal.

Like I said this more has to do with Paul, but Jessica's so tied up with it that I don't think she should be listed because of that.

That's my thoughts anyway.

Of particular note is Rayse's characterization. The writeup portrays him as nothing more than a brutal, rampaging, OmnicidalManiac, which while not ''completely'' incorrect, isn't quite right. He's hyped up to be like that, but the story makes a point of making him act differently when he actually appears,

So [[Literature/TheStormlightArchive Rayse’s]] writeup has a bunch of issues, including incorrect information, some very notable missing crimes, and overall not really portraying his characterization well, needing a significant rewrite.

* It is ‘’’’’Completely’’’’’ inaccurate to say Rayse was responsible for the lobotomy and enslavement of the Parshendi. That happened about 2000 years into the 4500 years between him getting sealed at the end of the [[GreatOffscreenWar Desolations]] and the main timeline of the series and his return. It was caused by accident when a subordinate tried to connect to the Singers, not Parshedi, called the False Desolation, only to get sealed by human forces, causing the Singers minds to break. Not wanting to waste all these now obedient creatures they had, humanity opted to enslave them. It was Rayse’s ‘’lack’’ of presence that caused this, and when he comes back he actually connects to the Singers, giving them their intelligence back and allowing them to escape slavery.

** Also to note a terminology error in the writeup, and to define these terms since they’ll come up later, Parshedi is an Alethi word for a group of a race the Alethi call Parsh, whose proper name is the Singers, and the Parshendi are a group of Singers called the Listeners who defected and did not connect during the False Desolation, making them the only Singers who were ‘’not’’ lobotomised and enslaved. The Listeners then made their own civilization in isolation, until encountering humans shortly before the series starts, and being quite disturbed by all the other beings like them that the humans had as slaves.

* The writeup overstates Raye’s influence on planets outside Roshar, we only know of two, and influenced only by collateral damage, one not badly at all, one VERY badly, with no mention of him starting wars or influencing people there.

Of particular note is Rayse’s characterization. The writeup portrays him as a rampaging OmnicidalManiac, which while not ‘’completely’’ incorrect, isn’t quite right. He’s hyped up to be like that, but the story has a point of making him act differently when he actually appears,

So since the only resonse I've gotten for [[https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/posts.php?discussion=16706336400A42573900&page=446#comment-11126 Telsin]] is in favor of keeping her, and I thought it would only amount to a write-change anyway, I've fixed the incorrect information, and also added, changed, and streamlined a few things to be a closer to how she is framed in the story.

* [[AmbitionIsEvil Telsin Ladrian]]/[[TheHeavy Sequence]] is a ruthless member of the Set, and is the very worst of their ranks, [[CainAndAbel far from the sister Wax once knew]]. Overseeing the torture and experimentation of Malwish, Telsin fools her brother into thinking that she was an unwilling participant, even killing one of her own men to maintain the guise. Telsin ultimately uses this opportunity to shoot her own brother when he's off guard. After the search for the Bands of Mourning turns against her, Telsin promptly flees and leaves all her subordinates behind. Resurfacing six years later, [[ManipulativeBitch Telsin]] masterminds a plot to destroy the entire city of Elendel and its millions of inhabitants, claiming that it is necessary to stop an invasion from the god Autonomy, [[NotSoWellIntentionedExtremist when in reality]], her plan will be nearly as destructive as the invasion, and is actually intended to impress Autonomy enough [[GodhoodSeeker so that they will make Telsin a god]]. When it appears her plan will succeed, Telsin reveals to Wax that she has always hated him since childhood, and [[EvilGloating gloats]] about her success over him, revealing her to be nothing more than a petty and callous individual who [[ItsAllAboutMe only cares]] about proving herself superior to her brother, indifferent to the countless lives that her actions take.

* [[AmbitionIsEvil Telsin Ladrian]]/'''[[BigBad Sequence]]''' is a '''[[ManipulativeBitch ruthless manipulator]] driven by an endless desire for more. A rule-breaker since childhood, she became much worse as she grew older, rising to be a high-ranking member of the Set, who recruited her similarly high-ranking uncle Edwarn. Found''' overseeing the torture and experimentation of Malwish, Telsin fools ''Wax'' into thinking that she was an unwilling participant '''forced by Edwarn,''' even killing one of her own men to maintain the guise. Telsin ultimately uses this opportunity to shoot '''Wax, [[CainAndAbel her own brother]],''' when he's off guard. '''When things begin to go poorly,''' Telsin promptly flees '''leaving Edwarn and''' all her subordinates behind. Resurfacing six years later, Telsin masterminds a plot to destroy the '''city of Elendel, inhabited by millions,''' claiming that it is necessary to stop '''a more destructive''' invasion from the god Autonomy, '''yet [[NotSoWellIntentionedExtremist Telsin]] ignores less violent solutions, with the plan actually intended''' to impress Autonomy enough [[GodhoodSeeker so that they will make Telsin a god]]. When it appears her plan will succeed, Telsin reveals to Wax that she has always hated him since childhood, and [[EvilGloating gloats]] about her success, revealing her to be nothing more than a petty and callous individual who [[ItsAllAboutMe only cares]] about proving herself superior to '''others''', indifferent to the countless lives that her actions take.

* [[AmbitionIsEvil Telsin Ladrian]]/[[BigBad Sequence]] is a '''[[ManipulativeBitch ruthless manipulator]] driven by an endless desire for more. A rule-breaker since childhood, she became much worse as she grew older, rising to be a high-ranking member of the Set, who recruited her similarly high-ranking uncle Edwarn. Found''' overseeing the torture and experimentation of Malwish, Telsin fools ''Wax'' into thinking that she was an unwilling participant '''forced by Edwarn,''' even killing one of her own men to maintain the guise. Telsin ultimately uses this opportunity to shoot '''Wax, [[CainAndAbel her own brother]],''' when he's off guard. When things begin to go poorly, Telsin promptly flees leaving Edwarn all her subordinates behind. Resurfacing six years later, Telsin masterminds a plot to destroy the '''city of Elendel, inhabited by millions,''' claiming that it is necessary to stop '''a more destructive''' invasion from the god Autonomy, '''yet [[NotSoWellIntentionedExtremist Telsin]] ignores less violent solutions, with the plan actually intended''' to impress Autonomy enough [[GodhoodSeeker so that they will make Telsin a god]]. When it appears her plan will succeed, Telsin reveals to Wax that she has always hated him since childhood, and [[EvilGloating gloats]] about her success, revealing her to be nothing more than a petty and callous individual who [[ItsAllAboutMe only cares]] about proving herself superior to '''others''', indifferent to the countless lives that her actions take.

So I made a couple of errors in [[https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/posts.php?discussion=16738556630A78599000&page=1035#comment-25856 my EP]] for [[Literature/WaxAndWayne Telsin Ladrian]]. I think she still counts, but it is obviously best to run it all by here and see what you all think. This will be long, but I want to be through.

So the thing is that in my EP (which made it into the writeup) I highlighted a moment where Telsin claims that her plan to nuke Elendel would stop Autonomy’s invasion, which would result in the death of all life on Scadrial, and that she is acting in the needs of the many to sacrifice some to save all, however Wax pointed out that her plan would cause the remaining cities in Elendel Basin would rebel against her for doing something so heinous, and the Malwish would invade in the moment of weakness, with all this being just as society ending as Autonomy’s invasion. Given that Telsin didn’t counter this, I used this to argue she’s more motivated by the recognition and subsequent ascension to godhood that would result from that plan as it would impress Autonomy, and doesn't care at all about what she’ll do to the Basin. While that does seem to be hw Telsin is portrayed, she didn’t answer Wax not because he had a gotcha about what her plan would do, but because he hadn’t fully figured out her plan during that conversation and she wasn’t going to give it away. Wax later realizes that Telsin intends to frame the Elendel government as having made the nuke themselves and accidentally blown themselves up, with the Set taking control and “recovering” that technology, preventing a Malwish invasion via nuclear deterrence. While this reveal doesn’t inherently redeem Telsin, since Telsin is trying to impress Autonomy by proving she can rule the Basin, not destroy the Basin, and Telsin is still killing millions, heinous enough for her resource tier, there is the issue that this would stop Autonomy’s invasion. This is an issue because even if Telsin is acting out of pragmatism, this would mitigate how heinous she is, causing her to flunk HS. Also going to mention a few more things that I didn’t mention in the EP because of how destructive I thought Telsin’s plan seemed to cover them, and the redeeming features section was a little long. Autonomy explicitly says that Telsin’s plan has delayed the invasion by several years, and that there was an evacuation of Elendel, not started by Telsin, before the bomb hit.

Now with all that, I don’t think any of that actually mitigates Telsin, even if her plan has a legitimate argument that it is less destructive than Autonomy’s invasion. For one, the rest of my breakdown of her character still applies. For the delay, the Set was planning to take over the Basin anyway, but their plans initially had a timetable of centuries until Autonomy decided the issue needed to be solved right now. Furthermore the Set as a whole is characterized as a pack of power hungry, morally grandstanding, [=NSWIEs=], with Telsin being amongst the foremost of them. Heck we see Edwarn’s, who Telsin personally recruited, initial reaction to Autonomy deciding to scourge Scadrial, and…

---> '''Autonomy!Faceless Immortal''': Our accelerated pace will no longer require the Set to have its full hierarchy
---> '''Edwarn''':But you need us! To rule, to manage civilization on-
---> '''Immortal''': No longer. Recent advances have made civilization here too dangerous. Allowing it to continue risks further advances we cannot control, and so we have decided to remove life on this sphere instead. Thank you for your service. You will be allowed to serve in another Realm.
---> '''Edwarn''': But- [Gets blown to oblivion]

So this isn’t Telsin, and he didn’t get to finish, but again Telsin was the one who recruited him into the Set’s ideology, and he was not indicated to be different from that ideology, while “But you need us” being the response I think makes the attitude pretty clear. Also serving in another realm is via some shenanigans that preserve him in the afterlife, and Edwarn clearly did not want that deal, and Telsin even says that if the Basin goes she goes, indicating she would not be offered a similar deal. Basically the invasions shifts Telsin and the Set’s planning from “carefully set up the pieces and make moves” to “go big or go home”, with the delays just being so they can get time to do want they have always wanted to do, not to give Scadrial more time to live, with no good intentions involved. And as for the evacuation, Telsin didn’t start it, Wax did, and it seems likely she actually intended to nuke the city with everyone in it, given there’s a Set mole in the Elendel council that tries to steer the debate away from evacuation and prevent the evacuation. Also it’s made clear that only a portion of the city could be evacuated in time, and the bodycount will still be cataclysmic.

Now there is still the issue of pragmatism mitigating the destruction of Elendel, since Autonomy’s invasion is definitely worse, but it’s not really framed as a better option by the narrative, only Telsin does, and she’s not a reliable source. It's treated as unacceptably bad. Furthermore Autonomy’s conditions to stop her invasion are open-ended
---> '''Wax''': And what must we do, to get you to leave us the hell alone?
---> '''Autonomy''': Prove you deserve it.
This is relevant as for one, Wax’s efforts to stop Telsin impress Autonomy enough to get her to not attack Scadrial (for a time), and given that Telsin knows that Autonomy respects Wax she could have guessed something like that, but only ever is concerned with beating Wax. Additionally, and this is what I think really does it, the Set is not a monolith and there was another plan to convince Autonomy, and one that was going on since the first book, albeit without the specific motivation to impress Autonomy. This one involves setting up a breeding program to create metalborns, or using [[HumanSacrifice Hemalurgy]] to create metalborns, and that gaining metalborns would be an incentive for Autonomy to spare Scadrial. This plan is much less heinous than Telsin’s, and while it does not work, its because they can’t get the processes working in time…with it being indicated that Telsin’s plan took resources away from this one that could have made it work…and there is no mention of Autonomy being impressed by anyone involved enough to make them a god.

So there's that, and I also must mention that Telsin’s final rant I quoted in my EP literally has her say “admit that I am right” before bringing up childhood grudges as a motivation.

Overall, a lot of strings attached but it still comes down to her killing millions for her own ambitions.

A couple other things that are a bit ambiguous and that I want to bring up.

So in my EP I mentioned that she didn’t indicate care for her parents, but I want to actually quote what she says about that since there’s not a definitive subversion.

---> '''Telsin''': Did Harmony tell you what happened to our parents?
---> '''Wax''': It was…an accident
---> '''Telsin''': It was agents of Harmony, trying to get to ‘’me’’. Did Harmony ever admit that to you? No, I expect not, based on your expression.
---> '''Wax''': [Internal Monologue] Don’t let her play you, Wax. Get information.

Also

---> '''Wax''': Do you remember back in the Village, when you wanted your own room?
---> '''Telsin''': Father always said it was appropriate for us, because of our lineage, we shouldn’t have to share.

So, it’s not clear if that story about their parent’s death is true, since Telsin is trying to manipulate Wax in this moment, and it’s not followed up on. Furthermore, if she’s using her parents' deaths as a tool for manipulation, that doesn’t indicate the most care. Also, Wax, in a much earlier scene, thinks that family is just another tool for Telsin, which is not explicitly contradicted. And that second comment only seems to indicate care for lineage, and is also said, in that same scene as the other one, to only care about lineage and the privilege it grants. So I don’t think this is a disqualifier.

One last thing, relating to whether Telsin believes in Autonomy’s ideology, which could be mitigating.

---> '''Autonomy''': I do not think your sister understands the nature of true Autonomy yet. Her attempts have a…fabricated, forced uniqueness to them. Not the raw wounds of true individualism. She will learn. The longer she holds my power, the longer she becomes an avatar of my nature, the more she will see and understand. If she survives.

So my interpretation of this was basically that, as indicated by Telsin’s attempts at uniqueness being fabricated, she was just aping Autonomy’s ideology for a shot at godhood, especially since Telsin has a bit where she impartially ruminates about Autonomy’s nature. And also, given that Shards, which is what Autonomy’s power is, are well established to warp the minds of those exposed to them, I thought that that was what was going to happen to Telsin, and therefore wouldn’t be mitigating like a HeelFaceBrainwashing isn’t. But the “see and ''understand''” gives me pause. Also Autonomy makes it clear this only happens if Telsin survives, and she doesn’t.

Speaking of which, the final thing we get on her, being a corpse with a message carved on to her arm, I said was clearly made by Autonomy, and it doesn’t make sense for Telsin to write it, but it’s a bit more mysterious in the context of the text,

---> ...it seemed that Wax and Wayne had left the Set’s organizational structure-and military forces-in shambles. They’d found Telsin dead on top of the Shaw. Written, by her own fingernail, on the strangely grey skin of her arm had been the words: ''You have proven yourselves. For now.'' The way her god had left her was eerily reminiscent of how the Ascendant Warrior and the Last Emperor had been discovered at the end of the Catacendre. Strangely peaceful, and…and rusts, Marasi was zoning out.

So that message indicates a bit of GracefulLoser, and that seemed more in character for Autonomy, since it also seemed to reference Autonomy’s earlier “Prove you deserve it”, but given that it’s written with Telsin’s own fingernail, that would require Autonomy to puppet her body, a power that Autonomy has not displayed, though another Shard ''has'', and we don’t know what Autonomy’s powers are. There’s also the “her god left her” bit. If Telsin did write it, that would take effort as she’s dying, which given the grace in defeat it indicates, could be an issue. Though I thought, and still do think, that it doesn’t make sense for Telsin to write it, since the last we saw of her,

---> ''Your failure begins'', Autonomy said, voice increasingly distant. ''You are not worthy.'' The fire inside Telsin died. The power that had for so many months warmed her was leeching away. Her skin began to turn grey. ''No!'' she thought. ''No! The bomb cannot be stopped. If they interfere they will destroy themselves and the city'' Potentially both cities. Rusts. ''We…shall see…'' Telsin gasped and fell to her knees, trying to reassure herself. It was just Wax. He’d been an annoyance since childhood, but he’d never ''actually'' interrupted anything she set in motion. Honestly, he probably hadn’t even reached that ship. A jump like that was nearly impossible, and his aim wasn’t ''that'' good. Was it?

So, that doesn’t really seem to indicate a GracefulLoser, and there’s no mention of the message. Overall, I think the scene is deliberately ambiguous, and not something clear enough to warrant a cut.

At least that's my thoughts on all of this stuff. I know that this thread relies on trust of the information provided, and so I wanted to lay it all out and see what you all think.