History Quotes / ProtagonistCenteredMorality

17th Jul '16 9:38:08 PM Gamermaster
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[[AC: Film - Animated]]

->We've done a lot of things we're not proud of--robbin' graves, plunderin' tombs, [[ArsonMurderAndJaywalking double parking]]...But nobody got hurt! ({{Beat}}) Well, maybe somebody got hurt, but nobody we ''knew''..."
-->--'''Vinny''', ''Disney/AtlantisTheLostEmpire''
7th Feb '16 7:53:00 AM hamonrye
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->Janeway really has nobody to blame but herself for Sevenís rogue behaviour in this episode...she was the one who insisted they try and re-assert her humanity. Now that [[HumanityIsInsane isnít quite working out]] and she is an embarrassment so she sends her crew out to stop her by any force necessary. The message here seems to be [[FamilyUnfriendlyAesop act like us or we will destroy you]]. Janeway ''the Furher'' is back in business.
-->--'''[[http://docohobigfinish.blogspot.co.uk/2012/05/voyager-season-four.html Joe Ford]]''' on ''Series/StarTrekVoyager'', "The Raven"

to:

->Janeway really has nobody to blame but herself for Sevenís rogue behaviour in this episode...she was the one who insisted they try and re-assert her humanity. Now that [[HumanityIsInsane isnít quite working out]] and ->I know she is an embarrassment so she sends her crew out to stop her by any force necessary. The message here seems to be [[FamilyUnfriendlyAesop act like us or we will destroy you]]. duped but lets not forget that Janeway ''the Furher'' willingly wakes up a battalion of an aggressive, homicidal species and inflicts them upon the Quadrant in order to get a handful of light years closer to home...This looks like the perfect opportunity for the First Officer to [[WhatTheHellHero question his Captainís decision]] but instead he is back in business.
[[MandatoryLine falling asleep]] on the Bridge.
-->--'''[[http://docohobigfinish.blogspot.co.uk/2012/05/voyager-season-four.uk/2012/08/voyager-season-six.html Joe Ford]]''' on ''Series/StarTrekVoyager'', "The Raven"
"Dragon's Teeth"
3rd Nov '15 7:40:43 PM hamonrye
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[[AC:Literature]]



->The ultimate hypocrisy at the heart of the Doctor, which [[{{Deconstruction}} is fun to poke a stick at,]] is that heís so nasty about soldiers and about people who carry guns, yet look at him -- always in the middle of the fight, usually taking command, and Iím not so impressed at his refusal to pick up a gun when heís inclined, occasionally, to [[AMillionIsAStatistic blow up entire planets!]]
-->--'''Creator/StevenMoffat''' on ''Series/DoctorWho'', [[{{Recap/DoctorWhoS34E3RobotOfSherwood}} "Robot of Sherwood"]]

to:

->The ultimate hypocrisy at the heart of the Doctor, [[AC:Web Animation]]

->He was a hacker who did any work for hire and stole money from bank accounts, but then accidentally targeted someone powerful who killed his six-year-old niece,
which [[{{Deconstruction}} is fun to poke gave him a stick at,]] is little Spider-Man moment and he declared that heís so nasty about soldiers from this day forth he would use his powers to--! ...continue working for hire and about stealing money from bank accounts. But also ''fight crime!'' ...In-between. If he can be arsed. Not stealing-money crime, or property-damage crime, or murdering-policemen crime; just, you know, [[AndTheRest all the bad crimes]], the ones committed by people who carry guns, yet look at him -- always in the middle of the fight, usually taking command, and Iím not so impressed at his refusal to pick up a gun when heís inclined, occasionally, to [[AMillionIsAStatistic blow up entire planets!]]
-->--'''Creator/StevenMoffat'''
''other'' than himself.
-->--'''''WebAnimation/ZeroPunctuation'''''
on ''Series/DoctorWho'', [[{{Recap/DoctorWhoS34E3RobotOfSherwood}} "Robot of Sherwood"]]
''VideoGame/WatchDogs''

[[AC:Web Original]]



->Archerís position is very stereotypically ''Star Trek''. Itís a philosophy that argues humanity are fundamentally brilliant, and so should behave in a manner that befits being so fundamentally brilliant. Itís a philosophy that comes dangerously close to evoking Creator/GeneRoddenberryís simplistic utopianism, indicating that mankind is wired with a fundamental decency that is [[AmericaSavesTheDay almost unique in the entire cosmos]].

to:

->Did you ever read Rick Veitchís ''[[Comicbook/TheQuestion Question]]'' mini that was part of Superstorm? It had a lot of flaws, but there was this great bit where all Metropolis drug deals and stuff took place in bathrooms, since Superman is [[LogicalWeakness too good a guy to ever look]]. Itís like moral lead. ''This'' is not that Superman.
-->--'''Chris Sims''' and '''David Uzumeri''' [[http://comicsalliance.com/comicsalliance-reviews-superman-returns-2006-part-one/ on]] ''Film/SupermanReturns''

->Ray testifies against Ned and gets him thrown out of the CIA, before [[TakeThisJobAndShoveIt resigning himself]]... it would seem heís been making a living by taking gun-for-hire jobs over the web. You know, because thatís totally different from killing people for the government. Heíll [[HandWave grumble out an explanation]] for this later, but itís still dumb.
-->--'''''Website/TheAgonyBooth''''' on ''Film/TheSpecialist''

->Usual practice for Moffat-era Who is to suggest extremely crude, superficially worrying [[NotSoDifferent moral equivalences]] in dialogue which are then papered-over by the actual behaviour of the Doctor and his gang (whom we might want to start calling '[[MyCountryRightOrWrong Our Boys and Girls]]', since it is assumed that they deserve 'our' support whatever they do).
-->--'''[[http://shabogangraffiti.blogspot.com/2013/06/a-town-without-context.html Jack Graham]]''' on ''Series/DoctorWho'', [[{{Recap/DoctorWhoS33E3ATownCalledMercy}} "A Town Called Mercy"]]

->Archerís position is very stereotypically ''Star Trek''. Itís a philosophy that argues humanity are fundamentally brilliant, and so should behave in a manner that befits being so fundamentally brilliant. Itís a philosophy that comes dangerously close to evoking Creator/GeneRoddenberryís simplistic utopianism, indicating that mankind is wired with a fundamental decency that is [[AmericaSavesTheDay almost unique in the entire cosmos]].cosmos.



->'''Janeway:''' A long time ago, I made a decision that stranded this crew in the Delta Quadrant. I don't regret that decision.\\
'''Chuck:''' ''(as Janeway)'' [[ForgottenFallenFriend Carey, Hagan, Jonas, and a few others]] might, but they're not here to complain.
-->--'''{{Webite/SFDebris}}''' on ''Series/StarTrekVoyager'', "Endgame"



->He was a hacker who did any work for hire and stole money from bank accounts, but then accidentally targeted someone powerful who killed his six-year-old niece, which gave him a little Spider-Man moment and he declared that from this day forth he would use his powers to--! ...continue working for hire and stealing money from bank accounts. But also ''fight crime!'' ...In-between. If he can be arsed. Not stealing-money crime, or property-damage crime, or murdering-policemen crime; just, you know, [[AndTheRest all the bad crimes]], the ones committed by people ''other'' than himself.
-->--'''''WebAnimation/ZeroPunctuation''''' on ''VideoGame/WatchDogs''

->Did you ever read Rick Veitchís ''[[Comicbook/TheQuestion Question]]'' mini that was part of Superstorm? It had a lot of flaws, but there was this great bit where all Metropolis drug deals and stuff took place in bathrooms, since Superman is [[LogicalWeakness too good a guy to ever look]]. Itís like moral lead. ''This'' is not that Superman.
-->--'''Chris Sims''' and '''David Uzumeri''' [[http://comicsalliance.com/comicsalliance-reviews-superman-returns-2006-part-one/ on]] ''Film/SupermanReturns''

->Ray testifies against Ned and gets him thrown out of the CIA, before [[TakeThisJobAndShoveIt resigning himself]]... it would seem heís been making a living by taking [[HiredGuns gun-for-hire]] jobs over the web. You know, because thatís totally different from killing people for the government. Heíll [[HandWave grumble out an explanation]] for this later, but itís still dumb.
-->--'''''Website/TheAgonyBooth''''' on ''Film/TheSpecialist''

->'''Cause not only will America go into your country and kill all your people, but whatís worse, I think, is theyíll come back twenty years later and make a movie about how killing your people made their soldiers feel sad. Oh boo hoo hoo. Americans making a movie about what Vietnam did to the soldiers is like a serial killer telling you what stopping suddenly for hitchhikers did to his clutch.''
-->--'''Creator/FrankieBoyle''' as [[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uZwuTI-V8SI part of a sketch]] on Scottish independence

to:

->He was
[[AC:Web Video]]

->'''Janeway:''' A long time ago, I made
a hacker who did any work for hire and stole money from bank accounts, but then accidentally targeted someone powerful who killed his six-year-old niece, which gave him a little Spider-Man moment and he declared decision that from stranded this day forth he would use his powers to--! ...continue working for hire and stealing money from bank accounts. But also ''fight crime!'' ...In-between. If he can be arsed. Not stealing-money crime, or property-damage crime, or murdering-policemen crime; just, you know, [[AndTheRest all crew in the bad crimes]], the ones committed by people ''other'' than himself.
-->--'''''WebAnimation/ZeroPunctuation''''' on ''VideoGame/WatchDogs''

->Did you ever read Rick Veitchís ''[[Comicbook/TheQuestion Question]]'' mini
Delta Quadrant. I don't regret that was part of Superstorm? It had decision.\\
'''Chuck:''' ''(as Janeway)'' [[ForgottenFallenFriend Carey, Hagan, Jonas, and
a lot of flaws, few others]] might, but there was this great bit where all Metropolis drug deals and stuff took place in bathrooms, since Superman is [[LogicalWeakness too good a guy to ever look]]. Itís like moral lead. ''This'' is they're not that Superman.
-->--'''Chris Sims''' and '''David Uzumeri''' [[http://comicsalliance.com/comicsalliance-reviews-superman-returns-2006-part-one/ on]] ''Film/SupermanReturns''

->Ray testifies against Ned and gets him thrown out
here to complain.
-->--'''{{Website/SFDebris}}''' on ''Series/StarTrekVoyager'', "Endgame"

[[AC:RealLife]]

->The ultimate hypocrisy at the heart
of the CIA, before [[TakeThisJobAndShoveIt resigning himself]]... it would seem Doctor, which [[{{Deconstruction}} is fun to poke a stick at,]] is that heís been making a living by taking [[HiredGuns gun-for-hire]] jobs over the web. You know, because thatís totally different from killing people for the government. Heíll [[HandWave grumble out an explanation]] for this later, but itís still dumb.
-->--'''''Website/TheAgonyBooth''''' on ''Film/TheSpecialist''

->'''Cause not only will America go into your country and kill all your people, but whatís worse, I think, is theyíll come back twenty years later and make a movie
so nasty about how killing your people made their soldiers feel sad. Oh boo hoo hoo. Americans making a movie and about what Vietnam did to people who carry guns, yet look at him -- always in the soldiers is like a serial killer telling you what stopping suddenly for hitchhikers did to middle of the fight, usually taking command, and Iím not so impressed at his clutch.''
-->--'''Creator/FrankieBoyle''' as [[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uZwuTI-V8SI part
refusal to pick up a gun when heís inclined, occasionally, to [[AMillionIsAStatistic blow up entire planets!]]
-->--'''Creator/StevenMoffat''' on ''Series/DoctorWho'', [[{{Recap/DoctorWhoS34E3RobotOfSherwood}} "Robot
of a sketch]] on Scottish independenceSherwood"]]
8th Sep '15 2:01:10 PM NineballCirno
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-->---'''Creator/JaneAusten''', ''Literature/LoveAndFriendship''

to:

-->---'''Creator/JaneAusten''', ''Literature/LoveAndFriendship''
''Literature/LoveAndFreindship''
24th Jul '15 5:16:29 PM johnnyfog
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-->--'''[[http://docohobigfinish.blogspot.co.uk/2012/05/voyager-season-four.html Doc Oho]]''' on ''Series/StarTrekVoyager'', "The Raven"

to:

-->--'''[[http://docohobigfinish.blogspot.co.uk/2012/05/voyager-season-four.html Doc Oho]]''' Joe Ford]]''' on ''Series/StarTrekVoyager'', "The Raven"



->He was a hacker who did any work for hire and stole money from bank accounts, but then accidentally targeted someone powerful who killed his six-year-old niece, which gave him a little ComicBook/SpiderMan moment and he declared that from this day forth he would use his powers to--! ...[[IgnoredEpiphany continue working for hire and stealing money from bank accounts]]. But also ''fight crime!'' ...In-between. If he can be arsed. Not stealing-money crime, or property-damage crime, or murdering-policemen crime; just, you know, [[AndTheRest all the bad crimes]], the ones committed by people ''other'' than himself.

to:

->He was a hacker who did any work for hire and stole money from bank accounts, but then accidentally targeted someone powerful who killed his six-year-old niece, which gave him a little ComicBook/SpiderMan Spider-Man moment and he declared that from this day forth he would use his powers to--! ...[[IgnoredEpiphany continue working for hire and stealing money from bank accounts]].accounts. But also ''fight crime!'' ...In-between. If he can be arsed. Not stealing-money crime, or property-damage crime, or murdering-policemen crime; just, you know, [[AndTheRest all the bad crimes]], the ones committed by people ''other'' than himself.
23rd Jul '15 11:51:40 PM johnnyfog
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->Janeway really has nobody to blame but herself for Sevenís rogue behaviour in this episode...she was the one who insisted they try and re-assert her humanity. Now that [[GrewBeyondTheirProgramming isnít quite working out]] and she is an embarrassment she sends her crew out to stop her by any force necessary. The message here seems to be [[FamilyUnfriendlyAesop act like us or we will destroy you]]. Janeway ''the Furher'' is back in business.

to:

->Janeway really has nobody to blame but herself for Sevenís rogue behaviour in this episode...she was the one who insisted they try and re-assert her humanity. Now that [[GrewBeyondTheirProgramming [[HumanityIsInsane isnít quite working out]] and she is an embarrassment so she sends her crew out to stop her by any force necessary. The message here seems to be [[FamilyUnfriendlyAesop act like us or we will destroy you]]. Janeway ''the Furher'' is back in business.
23rd Jul '15 11:48:27 PM johnnyfog
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->Janeway really has nobody to blame but herself for Sevenís rogue behaviour in this episode...she was the one who insisted they try and re-assert her humanity. Now that [[TheEvilsOfFreeWill isnít quite working out]] and she is an embarrassment she sends her crew out to stop her by any force necessary. The message here seems to be [[FamilyUnfriendlyAesop act like us or we will destroy you]]. Janeway ''the Furher'' is back in business.

to:

->Janeway really has nobody to blame but herself for Sevenís rogue behaviour in this episode...she was the one who insisted they try and re-assert her humanity. Now that [[TheEvilsOfFreeWill [[GrewBeyondTheirProgramming isnít quite working out]] and she is an embarrassment she sends her crew out to stop her by any force necessary. The message here seems to be [[FamilyUnfriendlyAesop act like us or we will destroy you]]. Janeway ''the Furher'' is back in business.
11th Jul '15 9:08:39 PM johnnyfog
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Added DiffLines:

->Archerís position is very stereotypically ''Star Trek''. Itís a philosophy that argues humanity are fundamentally brilliant, and so should behave in a manner that befits being so fundamentally brilliant. Itís a philosophy that comes dangerously close to evoking Creator/GeneRoddenberryís simplistic utopianism, indicating that mankind is wired with a fundamental decency that is [[AmericaSavesTheDay almost unique in the entire cosmos]].
-->--'''[[http://them0vieblog.com/2015/01/13/star-trek-enterprise-fortunate-son-review/ Darren Mooney]]''' on ''Series/StarTrekEnterprise'', "Fortunate Son"
9th Jun '15 8:32:25 AM johnnyfog
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-->--'''Douglas Trumble''' [[http://www.supermanhomepage.com/tv/tv.php?topic=reviews/smallville8-ep10 on]] ''Smallville'' ("Bride")

to:

-->--'''Douglas Trumble''' [[http://www.supermanhomepage.com/tv/tv.php?topic=reviews/smallville8-ep10 on]] ''Smallville'' ''{{Series/Smallville}}'' ("Bride")
9th Jun '15 8:32:02 AM johnnyfog
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->The ultimate hypocrisy at the heart of the Doctor, which [[{{Deconstruction}} is fun to poke a stick at,]] is that heís so nasty about soldiers and about people who carry guns, yet look at him -- always in the middle of the fight, usually taking command, and Iím not so impressed at his refusal to pick up a gun when heís inclined, occasionally, to [[AMillionIsAStatistic blow up entire planets!]] ...I like that heís the ultimate autocratic liberal -- you know, the fascist liberal. Itís what I love about the RobinHood thing because it reminds us that the Doctor never stops being a nobleman. Heís a high-born nobleman, used to wealth and privilege, who decided to come down among us lot and help out. He thinks heís one of the guys, but never stops assuming heís in charge and that people will make him tea. You love the Doctor but you do think, ĎYouíre a bit of an arse and you really, really, do think everybodyís here to [[YouGetMeCoffee carry stuff for you.]]í Thatís true throughout the Doctors, however Ď[[BourgeoisBohemian men of the people]]í they pretend to be. Theyíre really wonderful men trying to help everybody but the Doctor does, like Robin Hood, expect to be in charge. He doesnít really tolerate being second in command. Heís helping out the people, so long as he can be the boss person with the best bow and arrow -- and one day that will come back to haunt him.

to:

->The ultimate hypocrisy at the heart of the Doctor, which [[{{Deconstruction}} is fun to poke a stick at,]] is that heís so nasty about soldiers and about people who carry guns, yet look at him -- always in the middle of the fight, usually taking command, and Iím not so impressed at his refusal to pick up a gun when heís inclined, occasionally, to [[AMillionIsAStatistic blow up entire planets!]] ...I like that heís the ultimate autocratic liberal -- you know, the fascist liberal. Itís what I love about the RobinHood thing because it reminds us that the Doctor never stops being a nobleman. Heís a high-born nobleman, used to wealth and privilege, who decided to come down among us lot and help out. He thinks heís one of the guys, but never stops assuming heís in charge and that people will make him tea. You love the Doctor but you do think, ĎYouíre a bit of an arse and you really, really, do think everybodyís here to [[YouGetMeCoffee carry stuff for you.]]í Thatís true throughout the Doctors, however Ď[[BourgeoisBohemian men of the people]]í they pretend to be. Theyíre really wonderful men trying to help everybody but the Doctor does, like Robin Hood, expect to be in charge. He doesnít really tolerate being second in command. Heís helping out the people, so long as he can be the boss person with the best bow and arrow -- and one day that will come back to haunt him.planets!]]



->Is it acceptable to [[TheNeedsOfTheMany kill people to save more people?]] The answer, of course, is that it depends on whether itís the hero doing it or the villain....This is the sort of stuff Lawrence Miles was savaging back in ''[[Literature/EighthDoctorAdventures Interference]]'', pointing out that television ethics are really just aesthetics.

to:

->Is it acceptable to [[TheNeedsOfTheMany kill people to save more people?]] The answer, of course, is that it depends on whether itís the hero doing it or the villain....This is the sort of stuff Lawrence Miles was savaging back in ''[[Literature/EighthDoctorAdventures Interference]]'', pointing out that television ethics are really just aesthetics.villain.



->Janeway really has nobody to blame but herself for Sevenís rogue behaviour in this episode...she was the one who insisted they try and re-assert her humanity. Now that [[TheEvilsOfFreeWill isnít quite working out]] and she is an embarrassment she sends her crew out to stop her by any force necessary. The message here seems to be [[WithUsOrAgainstUs act like us or we will destroy you]]. Janeway ''the Furher'' is back in business. Janewayís other contradiction seems to be that she will try to negotiate with alien species for passage through their space but as soon as those relations break down she [[GunboatDiplomacy throws respect out the window]] and uses force to bully her way through. Sheís an odd one, for sure. Sometimes I really admire her flawed behaviour (to err is human after all) and at others I think she is the work of writers who cannot consistently give her any kind of consistent characterisation. ĎYouíve left me choice!í she barks ĎI donít have time for thisÖtarget their weapons array!í What a ''nutter''.

to:

->Janeway really has nobody to blame but herself for Sevenís rogue behaviour in this episode...she was the one who insisted they try and re-assert her humanity. Now that [[TheEvilsOfFreeWill isnít quite working out]] and she is an embarrassment she sends her crew out to stop her by any force necessary. The message here seems to be [[WithUsOrAgainstUs [[FamilyUnfriendlyAesop act like us or we will destroy you]]. Janeway ''the Furher'' is back in business. Janewayís other contradiction seems to be that she will try to negotiate with alien species for passage through their space but as soon as those relations break down she [[GunboatDiplomacy throws respect out the window]] and uses force to bully her way through. Sheís an odd one, for sure. Sometimes I really admire her flawed behaviour (to err is human after all) and at others I think she is the work of writers who cannot consistently give her any kind of consistent characterisation. ĎYouíve left me choice!í she barks ĎI donít have time for thisÖtarget their weapons array!í What a ''nutter''.



->''Enterprise'' continues to define itself as post-9/11 ''Star Trek'', reacting quickly and subtly to the shifting political climate. Breaking the Ice treats the idea of the senior staff monitoring correspondence rather casually Ė suggesting that itís perfectly understandable for members of the senior staff to read mail marked as private or confidential. While this is something that makes a lot of sense for a military operation, but itís hard to imagine Picard casually sifting through letters to his senior staff or Sisko prying into letters sent to Kira.\\\
The show seems quite sympathetic to Archer and Trip in this situation, despite the obvious invasion of privacy and violation of trust. When Trip feels guilty about prying, he offers some rationalisations suggesting he felt obligated to poke around in TíPolís business. ''ďAll they had to do was send it through regular channels, mark it personal, and weíd have left it alone. But no, they had to encrypt it, force me to start snooping.Ē'' [[DesignatedHero Itís a tough job, protecting the safety of the ship.]]
-->--'''[[http://them0vieblog.com/2015/01/09/star-trek-enterprise-breaking-the-ice-review/ Darren Mooney]]''' on ''Series/StarTrekEnterprise'', "Breaking the Ice"

to:

->''Enterprise'' continues to define itself as post-9/11 ''Star Trek'', reacting quickly ->Lana is at best a dark 'hero' character using the word hero loosely. She kills, she kidnaps, she tortures, and subtly to the shifting political climate. Breaking the Ice treats the idea of the senior staff monitoring correspondence rather casually Ė suggesting she has plotted and schemed [[EvenEvilHasStandards in a way that itís perfectly understandable for members of even caught Lex Luthor off guard]]. She is basically what I would call [[RetiredMonster a reformed villain]] AT BEST and honestly I think her character works better as a villain. Maybe a tragic villain but still the senior staff to read mail marked as private or confidential. While this '[[TheHeavy bad guy]]'. To put her in a position where she is something that makes a lot of sense for a military operation, but itís hard to imagine Picard casually sifting through letters to his senior staff or Sisko prying into letters sent to Kira.\\\
The show seems quite sympathetic to Archer and Trip in this situation, despite
the obvious invasion of privacy and violation of trust. When Trip feels guilty one lecturing an iconic DC superhero about prying, he offers some rationalisations suggesting he felt obligated how to poke around in TíPolís business. ''ďAll they had to do was send it through regular channels, mark it personal, and weíd have left it alone. But no, they had to encrypt it, force me to start snooping.Ē'' [[DesignatedHero Itís be a tough job, protecting the safety of the ship.]]
-->--'''[[http://them0vieblog.com/2015/01/09/star-trek-enterprise-breaking-the-ice-review/ Darren Mooney]]''' on ''Series/StarTrekEnterprise'', "Breaking the Ice"
superhero is just insulting.
-->--'''Douglas Trumble''' [[http://www.supermanhomepage.com/tv/tv.php?topic=reviews/smallville8-ep10 on]] ''Smallville'' ("Bride")
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