History OvershadowedByAwesome / ComicBooks

* ComicBook/{{Cyclops}} of the ''ComicBook/XMen'', though not to the same level as some examples. Cyclops has ''very'' powerful EyeBeams that could, in the words of Jean Grey, punch a hole through a mountain, he's got martial art skills on par with some of the best fighters in the world, and is a skilled enough tactician and leader that he's earned the respect of ComicBook/NickFury, the default BigGood of the Franchise/MarvelUniverse. However, Cyclops is often on a team that includes ComicBook/{{Wolverine}}, ComicBook/{{Storm}}, ComicBook/{{Rogue}}, ComicBook/{{Gambit}} and [[ComicBook/JeanGrey Phoenix]]. While In-Universe, Cyclops is shown as being just as badass and as competent a leader as series mainstays Wolverine and Storm and is often just as powerful as Rogue and Gambit (especially the latter) the fanbase, and many writers, seem to prefer the other four, leaving him in the dust. Phoenix, meanwhile, is an inverted example; she's so awesome, they had to kill her off because she overshadowed the rest of the team, and the plan to depower her backfired and made Creator/JimShooter demand she be killed instead. When she came back, her power was far more fluctuating. It doesn't help that both of them have [[VocalMinority a very vocal]] HateDom.

* In his early appearances, Toad was depicted as the weak link of the Brotherhood and Magneto's snivelling lackey. His powers: minor SuperStrength and agility which he generally used to [[InASingleBound jump good]] were pretty pathetic compared to the RealityWarper, the [[SuperSpeed speedster]], the [[StoutStrength massive]] super strong bulletproof guy and the man who controlled one of the fundamental forces of reality. Later writers realised that someone with Toad's abilities would be one of the most athletic people in the world and have the potential to be one of the most skilled martial artists alive. Drawing off his AdaptationalBadass depiction in [[Film/XMen the movie]], he has generally been depicted as an acrobatic asskicker who can pose a legit threat to {{Badass Normal}}s and low-level supers, even if he's still seen as a bit of a joke in-universe.

* ''ComicBook/TheUltimates'': Hawkeye's sight has been enhanced, which gives him Improbable Aiming Skills with just any thing he can lay his hands on. Still, he's in a team with a SuperSoldier, a man in a PoweredArmor, and a freakin' PhysicalGod.

* ''ComicBook/NewMutants'': Dough Ramsey, aka Cypher, had the mutant ability to decipher languages. In fact, he started out as a friend of the characters and Prof. X had no intention of telling him he was a mutant. Too bad none of the writers had figured out how potentially powerful his ability could be if used in a less conventional manner. To wit: his powers were instant total comprehension of any communication. This included the labels on buttons and controls of eons-dead aliens. Ramsey was later brought back to life, becoming a master computer programmer and hacker, as well as having the ability to read body language. Furthermore, he can now "read" the architectural structure of a building and determine its weakest point. In ''ComicBook/XMen2019'', he is the only able to communicate with GeniusLoci Krakoa who's providing a home for every single mutant in existence and gateways across dimensions. This in essence makes Doug one of the most important mutants ever, second only to freaking Professor X himself.

** ComicBook/{{Hawkeye}} gets this a lot, despite being able to give the Bat-Family a run for their money in the CharlesAtlasSuperPower department (including famously lifting a car off himself one handed), he’s even more overshadowed than the previous examples. having no super powers whatsoever and is usually on a team with members who could reduce him to a fine smear. Subverted at other times where he proves to be an effective leader, a good (if extremely irritating) read of people, and capable of taking on just about anything with his arrows. Unfortunately later writers would empathise this trope as a RunningGag for Clint, with telling his sidekick Kate the best strategy when you lack claws and webs is to "run like a bitch".

** ComicBook/{{Blade}}, the BadassLongcoat {{Dhampir}} VampireHunter of Marvel. Extremely cool in his own comics and crossovers, in ''Avengers'' books however, he’s generally not that impressive compared to the likes of Iron Man, Carol Danvers or Thor. Highlighted in the aforementioned ''Immortal Hulk'' where Blade rather overestimates himself and attacks Hulk with his CoolSword and gets [[TwinkleInTheSky Team Rocketed into the sky]] for his effort.

** [[ComicBook/{{Black Knight|MarvelComics}} Dane Whitman, the heroic Black Knight]], ultimately fell victim to this. Despite a truly concerted push during the 90's to make Dane TheProtagonist of the team, at the end of the day he's just a guy with a [[EvilWeapon cursed sword]]. Being a JackOfAllTrades didn't help him either -- even as {{Badass Normal}}s go, anything Dane can do, some other Avenger can do better.
** [[ComicBook/AntMan Hank Pym aka Ant-Man]] in the early days of the team. Despite having incredible size-changing powers, hanging around with a PhysicalGod, a [[TheJuggernaut Juggernaut]], and a GadgeteerGenius in PoweredArmor made him kind of redundant. Despite occasional moments in the limelight, this has generally extended to Pym's successors, including wife Janet (the Wasp), Scott Lang, and Stature of the ComicBook/YoungAvengers.
** [[ComicBook/CaptainAmerica Steve Rogers Captain America]], the national icon SuperSoldier himself despite his enhanced physical abilities, heart and determination... is still usually on a team full of flying bricks, reality changing sorcerers, multiple physical gods and gamma-powered monsters. Which tend to make Cap and his patriotic frisbee throwing look a bit lame in comparison, also not helped by fellow Avengers such as [[ComicBook/BlackPanther T’Challa aka Black Panther]] being able to do everything Steve can in addition to having Batman-esque gadgets and smarts. Although numerous writers have averted this, making great pains to [[HeartIsAnAwesomePower show]] exactly why Steve is TheLeader and worthy of such renown, regardless in comics like ''ComicBook/ImmortalHulk'' Cap can be reduced to a brave talking American flagpole in terms of usefulness.
** [[ComicBook/{{Blade}} Eric Brooks aka Blade]] the BadassLongcoat {{Dhampir}} VampireHunter of Marvel. Extremely cool in his own comics and crossovers, in ''Avengers'' books however, he’s generally not that impressive compared to the likes of Iron Man, Carol Danvers or Thor. Highlighted in the aforementioned ''Immortal Hulk'' where Blade rather overestimates himself and attacks Hulk with his CoolSword and gets [[TwinkleInTheSky Team Rocketed into the sky]] for his effort.
** [[ComicBook/{{Hawkeye}} Hawkeye aka Clint Barton]] of course gets this a lot, despite being able to give the Bat-Family a run for their money in the CharlesAtlasSuperPower department (including famously lifting a car off himself one handed), he’s even more overshadowed than the previous examples having no super powers whatsoever and is usually on a team with members who could reduce him to a fine smear. Subverted at other times where he proves to be an effective leader and even takes down the RealityWarper ComicBook/ScarletWitch with his arrows. Unfortunately later writers would empathise this trope as a RunningGag for Clint, with telling his sidekick Kate the best strategy when you lack claws and webs is to "run like a bitch".
** [[ComicBook/BlackWidow Natasha Romanov aka Black Widow]] and [[ComicBook/{{Mockingbird}} Barbara Morse aka Mockingbird]] despite being incredibly badass women with SuperSerum enhanced abilities are frequently overshadowed by their Avengers teammates. Although to exactly what degree is DependingOnTheWriter. Natasha in particular is far more badass in her own comics even by other more grounded heroes’ standards.
** PlayedWith regarding [[ComicBook/SpiderMan Peter Parker aka Spider-Man]] who occasionally joins the Avengers. Although regarded as "Street Level", Spidey’s abilities far eclipse the aforementioned Cap and T’Challa but sadly for the Wall Crawler he’s teamed up with the likes of Thor and Hulk to whom he is a complete lightweight in comparison. However unlike other examples, Spidey generally manages to avoid getting overshadowed thanks to almost always getting some SugarWiki/MomentOfAwesome to showcase his HeroicWillpower. Of course having the biggest case of PopularityPower in Marvel on his side, doesn’t hurt either.

** Dane Whitman, the heroic BlackKnight, ultimately fell victim to this. Despite a truly concerted push during the 90's to make Dane TheProtagonist of the team, at the end of the day he's just a guy with a [[EvilWeapon cursed sword]]. Being a JackOfAllTrades didn't help him either -- even as {{Badass Normal}}s go, anything Dane can do, some other Avenger can do better.

* The ComicBook/GuardiansOfTheGalaxy, throughout the Abnett/Lanning run, were treated as being major underdogs who were completely and laughably outclassed by most of the threats they faced, and their name apparently commanded so little respect on Earth that Reed Richards didn't even know who they were. However, the Guardians roster included the extremely powerful magician [[ComicBook/{{Warlock}} Adam Warlock]], universal defender ComicBook/{{Quasar}}, three powerful telepaths, and two super-strong assassins, and their leader was a former FourStarBadass. By Earthly standards, they'd be one of the strongest teams out there - one of the team's weakest and most badly decimated incarnations was able to crush an alternate version of the Defenders in ''seconds'' ([[TeamPet Cosmo]] took down the Hulk in one shot).The fact that they get no respect is really more a side effect of having to take on universe-threatening opponents every week instead of four to six supervillains.

* The ComicBook/GuardiansOfTheGalaxy, throughout the Abnett/Lanning run, were treated as being major underdogs who were completely and laughably outclassed by most of the threats they faced, and their name apparently commanded so little respect on Earth that Reed Richards didn't even know who they were. However, the Guardians roster included the extremely powerful magician ComicBook/AdamWarlock, universal defender ComicBook/{{Quasar}}, three powerful telepaths, and two super-strong assassins, and their leader was a former FourStarBadass. By Earthly standards, they'd be one of the strongest teams out there - one of the team's weakest and most badly decimated incarnations was able to crush an alternate version of the Defenders in ''seconds'' ([[TeamPet Cosmo]] took down the Hulk in one shot).The fact that they get no respect is really more a side effect of having to take on universe-threatening opponents every week instead of four to six supervillains.

** [[Comicbook/AntMan Hank Pym aka Ant-Man]] in the early days of the team. Despite having incredible size-changing powers, hanging around with a PhysicalGod, a [[TheJuggernaut Juggernaut]], and a GadgeteerGenius in PoweredArmor made him kind of redundant. Despite occasional moments in the limelight, this has generally extended to Pym's successors, including wife Janet (the Wasp), Scott Lang, and Stature of the ComicBook/YoungAvengers.

* ''ComicBook/NewMutants'': Dough Ramsey, aka Cypher, had the mutant ability to decipher languages. In fact, he started out as a friend of the characters and Prof. X had no intention of telling him he was a mutant. Too bad none of the writers had figured out how potentially powerful his ability could be if used in a less conventional manner. To wit: his powers were instant total comprehension of any communication. This included the labels on buttons and controls of eons-dead aliens. Ramsey was later brought back to life, becoming a master computer programmer and hacker, as well as having the ability to read body language. Furthermore, he can now "read" the architectural structure of a building and determine its weakest point. In ComicBook/JonathanHickmansXMen, he is the only able to communicate with GeniusLoci Krakoa who's providing a home for every single mutant in existence and gateways across dimensions. This in essence makes Doug one of the most important mutants ever, second only to freaking Professor X himself.

* [[ComicBook/InvisibleWoman The Invisible Girl]] in the first few years of ''Comicbook/FantasticFour'' was mostly just standing around watching the men fight, or [[DamselInDistress being captured]], getting to use her powers [[ThisLooksLikeAJobForAquaman for the odd stealth scene once every five issues or so]]. She was eventually given [[BarrierWarrior force field powers]] to make her somewhat more useful. That may have been a more dramatic change than intended, as she is now broadly accepted as the ''most'' powerful member of the Fantastic Four, with her powers becoming effectively an invisible [[ImaginationBasedSuperpower Green Lantern Ring]].

* ComicBook/{{Cyclops}} of the ''ComicBook/XMen'', though not to the same level as some examples. Cyclops has ''very'' powerful EyeBeams that could, in the words of Jean Grey, punch a hole through a mountain, he's got martial art skills on par with some of the best fighters in the world, and is a skilled enough tactician and leader that he's earned the respect of Comicbook/NickFury, the default BigGood of the Franchise/MarvelUniverse. However, Cyclops is often on a team that includes ComicBook/{{Wolverine}}, Comicbook/{{Storm}}, ComicBook/{{Rogue}}, ComicBook/{{Gambit}} and [[ComicBook/JeanGrey Phoenix]]. While In-Universe, Cyclops is shown as being just as badass and as competent a leader as series mainstays Wolverine and Storm and is often just as powerful as Rogue and Gambit (especially the latter) the fanbase, and many writers, seem to prefer the other four, leaving him in the dust. Phoenix, meanwhile, is an inverted example; she's so awesome, they had to kill her off because she overshadowed the rest of the team, and the plan to depower her backfired and made Creator/JimShooter demand she be killed instead. When she came back, her power was far more fluctuating. It doesn't help that both of them have [[VocalMinority a very vocal]] HateDom.

* Comicbook/JessicaJones of the comic ''ComicBook/{{Alias}}'' ([[SimilarlyNamedWorks not an adaptation of the TV show]]) is a private investigator who has super strength, super durability and can fly. So why doesn't she become a superhero? Well actually she retired from being a superhero: you see, she lives in the Marvel Universe...yeah... Case in point: she quit being a superhero after enduring ''eight months'' of horrifying MindRape at the hands of the Purple Man and being beaten into a coma by ComicBook/TheAvengers (who would have likely killed her if [[ComicBook/CarolDanvers Ms. Marvel]] hadn't recognized her) after she attacked them under the MindControl of the former...only to find at the end of [[TraumaCongaLine the ordeal]] that during all this time ''no one noticed she was missing.''

** [[ComicBook/{{Hawkeye}} Hawkeye aka Clint Barton]] of course gets this a lot, despite being able to give the Bat-Family a run for their money in the CharlesAtlasSuperPower department (including famously lifting a car off himself one handed), he’s even more overshadowed than the previous examples having no super powers whatsoever and is usually on a team with members who could reduce him to a fine smear. Subverted at other times where he proves to be an effective leader and even takes down the RealityWarper ComicBook/ScarletWitch with his arrows. Unfortunately later writers would empathise this trope as a RunningGag for Clint, with telling his sidekick Kate the best strategy when you lack claws and webs is to “run like a bitch”.
** Similarly [[ComicBook/BlackWidow Natasha Romanov aka Black Widow]] and [[ComicBook/{{Mockingbird}} Barbara Morse aka Mockingbird]] despite being incredibly badass women with SuperSerum enhanced abilities are frequently overshadowed by their Avengers teammates. Although to exactly what degree is DependingOnTheWriter. Natasha in particular is far more badass in her own comics even by other more grounded heroes’ standards.
** PlayedWith regarding [[Franchise/SpiderMan Peter Parker aka Spider-Man]] who occasionally joins the Avengers. Although regarded as “Street Level”, Spidey’s abilities far eclipse the aforementioned Cap and T’Challa but sadly for the Wall Crawler he’s teamed up with the likes of Thor and Hulk to whom he is a complete lightweight in comparison. However unlike other examples, Spidey generally manages to avoid getting overshadowed thanks to almost always getting some SugarWiki/MomentOfAwesome to showcase his HeroicWillpower. Of course having the biggest case of PopularityPower in Marvel on his side, doesn’t hurt either.

* ComicBook/{{Loki}} and Comicbook/{{Ares|Marvel}} from ''Comicbook/TheMightyThor'' and ''Comicbook/TheIncredibleHercules'' respectively. The former is one of the most powerful sorcerers and one of the most powerful gods in the nine realms and a brilliant schemer but lives in a society of warriors that value brawn and brash heroics more than cleverly-laid schemes which they view as cowardice. The latter is a revamped anti-hero who personifies war that can "turn nations into empires, peasants into heroes, men into gods!" Both are overshadowed by their brothers whom they ridicule. Loki ridicules Thor for being a brainless oaf. Ares ridicules Hercules for being a drunken, destructive, buffoon and is himself looked down upon for his violent nature. Hercules himself is sometimes this for Thor. Despite being one of the greatest heroes who ever lived and the strongest god on Olympus many, including Zeus, still view him as a second-string Thor and a walking joke.
* Doug Ramsey, aka Cypher of the ''Comicbook/NewMutants''. He had the mutant ability to decipher languages. In fact, he started out as a friend of the characters and Prof. X had no intention of telling him he was a mutant. Too bad none of the writers had figured out how potentially powerful his ability could be if used in a less conventional manner. To wit: his powers were instant total comprehension of any communication. This included the labels on buttons and controls of eons-dead aliens. He should also have been capable of matching [[ComicBook/BatGirl2000 Cassandra Cain]] in predicting his opponents' moves. Ramsey was later brought back to life, and as fans predicted he has indeed become a master computer programmer and hacker, as well as having the ability to read body language. Furthermore, he can now "read" the architectural structure of a building and determine its weakest point. Averted hard in ComicBook/JonathanHickmansXMen which fully realises Cypher‘s potential with him being the only able to communicate with GeniusLoci Krakoa who’s providing a home for every single mutant in existence and gateways across dimensions. This in essence makes Doug one of the most important mutants '''ever''', second only to freaking Professor X himself.

** Stephanie 'Spoiler' Brown is an impressive fighter, athlete, and investigator considering she is a largely self-trained OrdinaryHighSchoolStudent (not to mention [[{{Determinator}} having guts]] [[PluckyGirl enough for three]]). [[OhCrap She lives in Gotham]]. Her (ex)boyfriend is Comicbook/{{Robin|Series}}. Her closest female friend is [[CharlesAtlasSuperpower Cassandra Cain]]. Suffice it to say that Batman's efforts at getting her to ditch the costume are not entirely due to being a control freak. Once she officially becomes ComicBook/{{Batgirl|2009}}, though, [[TookALevelInBadass things are a little different.]]
** Dick Grayson was this to Batman when he was the first Comicbook/{{Robin}}, and in his late teens decided to strike out on his own as Comicbook/{{Nightwing}}. Now, he's one of the leading heroes of the DCU. Hell, he even became Batman after Bruce's kind of death!
** [[ComicBook/RedHood Jason Todd]], the second Robin, constantly felt like he was living in Dick's shadow as well as Batman. It led to him being impulsive and angry.
** The third Comicbook/{{Robin|Series}}, Tim Drake, wasn't the "first", and wasn't the tearaway Bruce couldn't save. He was just kind of...''there''. More competent than Jason and even improving on Bruce's techniques. Bruce knows all of this and admits that Tim'll eventually be a better detective than him.
** The fourth Robin, Stephanie Brown, is often not even remembered as having been Robin out of universe because her tenure was so short. Whenever people in or out of universe discuss the Robin legacy, she's usually left out or glossed over. She's much better known for being Spoiler or Batgirl.
** The fifth Robin, Damian Wayne, was never quite accepted by Bruce. Dick was much more of a mentor to him, and a lot of characters and fans plain didn't like him. He was also less competent than previous Robins, because he was only 10 years old and had to adapt his techniques from lethality to Bruce's no-kill approach, often mid-battle.
** Batman himself when it comes to ''ComicBook/JusticeLeagueOfAmerica'' comics is a mixed example, as its either him the NonPoweredCostumedHero getting overshadowed by teammates who can move planets and travel faster than light or it’s him overshadowing his superpowered teammates by being a CrazyPrepared GadgeteerGenius to PowerCreepPowerSeep Gary Stu-levels. ''ComicBook/JusticeLeague2018'' features a refreshing subversion with Batman fighting his fellow league members in the Final Batsuit, only to be overshadowed by Superman having the [[SugarWiki/CrowningMomentOfAwesome mother of all awesome moments]] flying through multiple suns to give the World Forger a MegatonPunch.

** [[Comicbook/AntMan Hank Pym]] in the early days of the team. Despite having incredible size-changing powers, hanging around with a PhysicalGod, a [[TheJuggernaut Juggernaut]], and a GadgeteerGenius in PoweredArmor made him kind of redundant. Despite occasional moments in the limelight, this has generally extended to Pym's successors, including wife Janet (the Wasp), Scott Lang, and Stature of the ComicBook/YoungAvengers.

* Doug Ramsey, aka Cypher of the ''Comicbook/NewMutants''. He had the mutant ability to decipher languages. In fact, he started out as a friend of the characters and Prof. X had no intention of telling him he was a mutant. Too bad none of the writers had figured out how potentially powerful his ability could be if used in a less conventional manner. To wit: his powers were instant total comprehension of any communication. This included the labels on buttons and controls of eons-dead aliens. He should also have been capable of matching [[ComicBook/BatGirl2000 Cassandra Cain]] in predicting his opponents' moves. Ramsey was later brought back to life, and as fans predicted he has indeed become a master computer programmer and hacker, as well as having the ability to read body language. Furthermore, he can now "read" the architectural structure of a building and determine its weakest point.

* Stephanie 'Spoiler' Brown is an impressive fighter, athlete, and investigator considering she is a largely self-trained OrdinaryHighSchoolStudent (not to mention [[{{Determinator}} having guts]] [[PluckyGirl enough for three]]). [[OhCrap She lives in Gotham]]. Her (ex)boyfriend is Comicbook/{{Robin|Series}}. Her closest female friend is [[CharlesAtlasSuperpower Cassandra Cain]]. Suffice it to say that Franchise/{{Batman}}'s efforts at getting her to ditch the costume are not entirely due to being a control freak. Once she officially becomes ComicBook/{{Batgirl|2009}}, though, [[TookALevelInBadass things are a little different.]]

* ComicBook/{{Cyclops}} of the ''ComicBook/XMen'', though not to the same level as some examples. Cyclops has ''very'' powerful EyeBeams that could, in the words of Jean Grey, punch a hole through a mountain, he's got martial art skills on par with some of the best fighters in the world, and is a skilled enough tactician and leader that he's earned the respect of Comicbook/NickFury, the default BigGood of the Franchise/MarvelUniverse. However, Cyclops is on a team that includes ComicBook/{{Wolverine}}, Comicbook/{{Storm}}, and Phoenix. While In-Universe, Cyclops is shown as being just as badass and as competent a leader as series mainstays Wolverine and Storm, the fanbase, and many writers, seem to prefer the other two, leaving him in the dust. Phoenix, meanwhile, is an inverted example; she's so awesome, they had to kill her off because she overshadowed the rest of the team, and the plan to depower her backfired and made Creator/JimShooter demand she be killed instead. When she came back, her power was far more fluctuating. It doesn't help that both of them have [[VocalMinority a very vocal]] HateDom.

* ComicBook/{{Loki}} and Comicbook/{{Ares}} from ''Comicbook/TheMightyThor'' and ''Comicbook/TheIncredibleHercules'' respectively. The former is one of the most powerful sorcerers and one of the most powerful gods in the nine realms and a brilliant schemer but lives in a society of warriors that value brawn and brash heroics more than cleverly-laid schemes which they view as cowardice. The latter is a revamped anti-hero who personifies war that can "turn nations into empires, peasants into heroes, men into gods!" Both are overshadowed by their brothers whom they ridicule. Loki ridicules Thor for being a brainless oaf. Ares ridicules Hercules for being a drunken, destructive, buffoon and is himself looked down upon for his violent nature. Hercules himself is sometimes this for Thor. Despite being one of the greatest heroes who ever lived and the strongest god on Olympus many, including Zeus, still view him as a second-string Thor and a walking joke.

* ComicBook/{{Cyclops}} of the ''ComicBook/XMen'', though not to the same level as some examples. Cyclops has ''very'' powerful EyeBeams that could, in the words of Jean Grey, punch a hole through a mountain, he's got martial art skills on par with some of the best fighters in the world, and is a skilled enough tactician and leader that he's earned the respect of Comicbook/NickFury, the default BigGood of the Franchise/MarvelUniverse. However, Cyclops is on a team that includes Franchise/{{Wolverine}}, Comicbook/{{Storm}}, and Phoenix. While In-Universe, Cyclops is shown as being just as badass and as competent a leader as series mainstays Wolverine and Storm, the fanbase, and many writers, seem to prefer the other two, leaving him in the dust. Phoenix, meanwhile, is an inverted example; she's so awesome, they had to kill her off because she overshadowed the rest of the team, and the plan to depower her backfired and made Creator/JimShooter demand she be killed instead. When she came back, her power was far more fluctuating. It doesn't help that both of them have [[VocalMinority a very vocal]] HateDom.

* In his early appearances, Toad was depicted as the weak link of the Brotherhood and Magneto's snivelling lackey. His powers: minor SuperStrength and agility which he generally used to [[InASingleBound jump good]] were pretty pathetic compared to the RealityWarper, the [[SuperSpeed speedster]], the [[StoutStrength massive]] super strong bulletproof guy and the man who controlled one of the fundamental forces of reality. Later writers realised that someone with Toad's abilities would have the potential to be one of the most skilled martial artists alive, and, drawing off his AdaptationalBadass depiction in [[Film/XMen the movie]], have depicted him as an athletic asskicker who can pose a legit threat to BadassNormals and low-level supers, even if he's still seen as a bit of a joke in-universe.