History Main / UtopiaJustifiesTHeMeans

29th Jan '18 5:31:18 PM Ibskib
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** In the actual manga, Pein's plan to end all war turns out subverted example. First he claimed that wants to achieve utopias by harnessing the power of the tailed beasts to make a weapon of mass destruction that could destroy a country. If a war was started with one side lacking ninja, they would turn to Akatsuki, who would wipe out the entire opposing nation. After this, most countries would be too scared to start a war. However, [[SubvertedTrope he then reveals an even more cynical expectation]] that bring it toward DystopiaJustifiesTheMeans and subverts UtopiaJustifiesTheMeans: Pein knows that people will eventually forget about all that and just go back to fighting. Planning to [[AbusivePrecursors leave it for future generations]], Pein believes that the weapon will allow future civilizations to experience the terror of destruction themselves and revert to peace for short periods before doing it [[HumansAreBastards all over again]].

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** In the actual manga, Pein's plan to end all war turns out subverted example.to be a subversion. First he claimed that wants to achieve utopias by harnessing the power of the tailed beasts to make a weapon of mass destruction that could destroy a country. If a war was started with one side lacking ninja, they would turn to Akatsuki, who would wipe out the entire opposing nation. After this, most countries would be too scared to start a war. However, [[SubvertedTrope he then reveals an even more cynical expectation]] that bring it toward DystopiaJustifiesTheMeans and subverts UtopiaJustifiesTheMeans: Pein knows that people will eventually forget about all that and just go back to fighting. Planning to [[AbusivePrecursors leave it for future generations]], Pein believes that the weapon will allow future civilizations to experience the terror of destruction themselves and revert to peace for short periods before doing it [[HumansAreBastards all over again]].
29th Jan '18 5:30:15 PM Ibskib
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** In the actual manga, Pain's plan to end all war turns out subverted example. First he claimed that wants to achieve utopias by harnessing the power of the tailed beasts to make a weapon of mass destruction that could destroy a country. If a war was started with one side lacking ninja, they would turn to Akatsuki, who would wipe out the entire opposing nation. After this, most countries would be too scared to start a war. However, [[SubvertedTrope he then reveals an even more cynical expectation]] that bring it toward DystopiaJustifiesTheMeans and subverts UtopiaJustifiesTheMeans: Pain knows that people will eventually forget about all that and just go back to fighting. Planning to [[AbusivePrecursors leave it for future generations]], Pain believes that the weapon will allow future civilizations to experience the terror of destruction themselves and revert to peace for short periods before doing it [[HumansAreBastards all over again]].

to:

** In the actual manga, Pain's Pein's plan to end all war turns out subverted example. First he claimed that wants to achieve utopias by harnessing the power of the tailed beasts to make a weapon of mass destruction that could destroy a country. If a war was started with one side lacking ninja, they would turn to Akatsuki, who would wipe out the entire opposing nation. After this, most countries would be too scared to start a war. However, [[SubvertedTrope he then reveals an even more cynical expectation]] that bring it toward DystopiaJustifiesTheMeans and subverts UtopiaJustifiesTheMeans: Pain Pein knows that people will eventually forget about all that and just go back to fighting. Planning to [[AbusivePrecursors leave it for future generations]], Pain Pein believes that the weapon will allow future civilizations to experience the terror of destruction themselves and revert to peace for short periods before doing it [[HumansAreBastards all over again]].
25th Dec '17 11:11:01 PM Fireblood
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* In the ''Literature/AgeOfFire'' series, this is a goal shared by both [[ANaziByAnyOtherName the Wrymmaster]] and [[AntiVillain the Copper]]. However, in both cases, their idea of "utopia" is colored by their prejudices -- the Wrymmaster wants to [[FinalSolution wipe out the non-human races]] in order to "free" humans from their "oppression", while the Copper wants to establish dragon domination of the world, not caring what the expense is to the other races.



* In ''Literature/TheCalling'', the Architect [[spoiler: and later on, Utha as well]] plans to stop future Blights and bring peace between darkspawn and the other species by [[spoiler:spreading the Taint so that essentially everyone has go through the Joining, which many would not survive.]]



* In the book "The Czar of Love and Techno", one of the main characters who is a censor during the Stalinist Regime very much believes in this trope. He fully believes his work of erasing "Dissidents" is for the greater good and in service of a grand revolution. He believes this even when he ends up being falsely arrested, and is coached in prison to say he is a dissident. While pretending to be a dissident, he ends up almost naming this trope: "Because the future is a lie with which we justify the brutality of the present."



* ''Literature/VillainsByNecessity'': The Good crowd thinks it does, if it's even occurred to them that not everything they do is automatically right in the first place.



* In ''Literature/TheCalling'', the Architect [[spoiler: and later on, Utha as well]] plans to stop future Blights and bring peace between darkspawn and the other species by [[spoiler:spreading the Taint so that essentially everyone has go through the Joining, which many would not survive.]]
* In the ''Literature/AgeOfFire'' series, this is a goal shared by both [[ANaziByAnyOtherName the Wrymmaster]] and [[AntiVillain the Copper]]. However, in both cases, their idea of "utopia" is colored by their prejudices -- the Wrymmaster wants to [[FinalSolution wipe out the non-human races]] in order to "free" humans from their "oppression", while the Copper wants to establish dragon domination of the world, not caring what the expense is to the other races.
* In the book "The Czar of Love and Techno", one of the main characters who is a censor during the Stalinist Regime very much believes in this trope. He fully believes his work of erasing "Dissidents" is for the greater good and in service of a grand revolution. He believes this even when he ends up being falsely arrested, and is coached in prison to say he is a dissident. While pretending to be a dissident, he ends up almost naming this trope: "Because the future is a lie with which we justify the brutality of the present."
22nd Dec '17 12:51:45 PM erforce
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* A prime candidate for this trope: ComicBook/{{Magneto}} from the ''ComicBook/XMen'' comics, [[WesternAnimation/XMen animated series]], and [[Film/XMen movies]], who is sometimes willing to kill all "normals" to create a utopia for the mutants.

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* A prime candidate for this trope: ComicBook/{{Magneto}} from the ''ComicBook/XMen'' comics, [[WesternAnimation/XMen animated series]], and [[Film/XMen [[Film/XMenFilmSeries movies]], who is sometimes willing to kill all "normals" to create a utopia for the mutants.



** A few Franchise/XMen villains have tried to resolve the humans vs. mutants debate once and for all by either forcibly removing mutant powers altogether and making everyone a baseline human, or by forcibly imbuing everyone with mutant powers and turning everyone into mutants. Neither the mutants nor the baseline humans who would be affected tend to be given any say in the matter.

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** A few Franchise/XMen ''Franchise/XMen'' villains have tried to resolve the humans vs. mutants debate once and for all by either forcibly removing mutant powers altogether and making everyone a baseline human, or by forcibly imbuing everyone with mutant powers and turning everyone into mutants. Neither the mutants nor the baseline humans who would be affected tend to be given any say in the matter.
16th Dec '17 1:56:08 PM Premonition45
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** The rogue Starfleet agency Section 31 could also apply. Their utopia already exists in the form of TheFederation, but they're willing to do all the underhanded things the Federation itself would never do [[IDidWhatIHadToDo in order to preserve it]].

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** [[NoSuchAgency The rogue Starfleet agency Section 31 31]] could also apply. Their utopia already exists in the form of TheFederation, but [[TheUnfettered they're willing to do all the underhanded things the Federation itself would never do do]] [[IDidWhatIHadToDo in order to preserve it]].
25th Nov '17 9:54:58 PM DrFraud
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They will plan to TakeOverTheWorld, use [[PoweredByAForsakenChild the heart of an orphan]] or an ArtifactOfDoom, steal the CosmicKeystone, commit [[TheEvilsOfFreeWill mass brainwashing]], [[DealWithTheDevil sell himself to higher powers]] or unleash the [[TheEndOfTheWorldAsWeKnowIt Apocalypse]] so that they can destroy all resistance and usher in ''[[InTheirOwnImage their own]]'' ideals for Utopia. They will operate under the assumption that this wonderful new world has them at the top, free to exert a [[AntiVillain benevolent]] or iron-fisted regime as they will. Using logic that would make Machiavelli blush, they reason that every sacrifice and atrocity is worth The Greater Good, putting the ''Well Intentioned'' in ''WellIntentionedExtremist''. The KnightTemplar often claims this to himself before succumbing to the decidedly less benevolent DespotismJustifiesTheMeans.

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They will plan to TakeOverTheWorld, use [[PoweredByAForsakenChild the heart of an orphan]] or an ArtifactOfDoom, steal the CosmicKeystone, commit [[TheEvilsOfFreeWill mass brainwashing]], [[DealWithTheDevil sell himself themself to higher powers]] or unleash the [[TheEndOfTheWorldAsWeKnowIt Apocalypse]] so that they can destroy all resistance and usher in ''[[InTheirOwnImage their own]]'' ideals for Utopia. They will operate under the assumption that this wonderful new world has them at the top, free to exert a [[AntiVillain benevolent]] or iron-fisted regime as they will. Using logic that would make Machiavelli blush, they reason that every sacrifice and atrocity is worth The Greater Good, putting the ''Well Intentioned'' in ''WellIntentionedExtremist''. The KnightTemplar often claims this to himself before succumbing to the decidedly less benevolent DespotismJustifiesTheMeans.
17th Nov '17 11:18:08 AM nmn3r3
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** Walhart from ''[[VideoGame/FireEmblemAwakening Awakening]]'' mixes this with AndManGrewProud, where he sees a future where mankind would no longer believe in god. And even then, he's not exactly bad. Mainly thanks to the fact that [[BigBad Grima's forces]] can't do very much on him, and that [[IKnowYouKnowIKnow he's fully aware of what is happening.]] All rest is also thanks to being nothing more than badass incarnate.

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** Walhart from ''[[VideoGame/FireEmblemAwakening Awakening]]'' mixes this with AndManGrewProud, where he sees a future where mankind would no longer believe in god. And even then, he's not exactly bad.bad, if you ignore the part where he [[MightMakesRight tramples over anyone who disagrees with him]], as well as considering ''himself'' to be a god. Mainly thanks to the fact that [[BigBad Grima's forces]] can't do very much on him, and that [[IKnowYouKnowIKnow he's fully aware of what is happening.]] All rest is also thanks to being nothing more than badass incarnate.
17th Oct '17 6:24:29 AM Trogdor7620
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—>'''[[spoiler:Cortana]]''' …AIs can be immortal. That kind of lifespan allows for long-term planning just like the Forerunners were capable of. AIs can assume the Forerunners' Mantle of Responsibility. And once there is peace, we can focus on poverty, hunger, illness... But [[TheDragon Warden]] believes some will resist our help. And he's afraid you're one of them.\\

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—>'''[[spoiler:Cortana]]''' -->'''[[spoiler:Cortana]]''' …AIs can be immortal. That kind of lifespan allows for long-term planning just like the Forerunners were capable of. AIs can assume the Forerunners' Mantle of Responsibility. And once there is peace, we can focus on poverty, hunger, illness... But [[TheDragon Warden]] believes some will resist our help. And he's afraid you're one of them.\\
17th Oct '17 6:22:02 AM Trogdor7620
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Added DiffLines:

** ''VideoGame/Halo5Guardians'' has [[spoiler:[[FaceHeelTurn an insane]] [[AIIsACrapshoot Cortana]]]] forming the Created faction to assume the Mantle of Responsibility, summoning gigantic Forerunner ships designed to police entire star systems, and force peace upon the galaxy. Anyone tries to get uppity, the Guardians decimate them.
—>'''[[spoiler:Cortana]]''' …AIs can be immortal. That kind of lifespan allows for long-term planning just like the Forerunners were capable of. AIs can assume the Forerunners' Mantle of Responsibility. And once there is peace, we can focus on poverty, hunger, illness... But [[TheDragon Warden]] believes some will resist our help. And he's afraid you're one of them.\\
'''Fred:''' Sounds great. I don't get why anyone's expecting resistance.\\
'''John:''' The Didact made it clear the Mantle of Responsibility was an imperial peace. Step out of line, and suffer.\\
'''[[spoiler:Cortana:]]''' [[BlatantLies It won't be like that, John.]]
28th Sep '17 12:39:02 AM PaulA
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* Played completely straight in ''The Spellsong Cycle'' by L.E. Modesitt Jr. The main character, who's canonically NeutralGood, accumulates a five-digit body count by the end of the first book, because she's determined to fix the CrapsackWorld she's [[TrappedInAnotherWorld trapped in]]. Interestingly, she isn't aiming for utopia proper--she's trying to recreate the American democratic system, which is utopian compared to the society she's dealing with.

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* Played completely straight in In ''The Spellsong Cycle'' by L.E. Modesitt Jr. The Creator/LEModesittJr, the main character, who's canonically NeutralGood, accumulates a five-digit body count by the end of the first book, because she's determined to fix the CrapsackWorld she's [[TrappedInAnotherWorld trapped in]]. Interestingly, she isn't aiming for utopia proper--she's trying to recreate the American democratic system, which is utopian compared to the society she's dealing with.
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