History Main / UselessUsefulStealth

16th Jun '18 8:56:18 AM butterflygrrl
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* ''VideoGame/KnightsOfTheOldRepublic'' suffers from all of these. Sure, you can stealth to plant a mine in the middle of an enemy cluster. But most enemies that you can stealth by can easily be attacked and killed a few at a time--and trying to stealth can lead to exposure amidst said cluster. Not fun. Also, stealth is only possible in "solo mode" where you are only controlling one character at a time and it is very easy to accidentally switch back into normal mode and expose yourself.

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* ''VideoGame/KnightsOfTheOldRepublic'' suffers from all of these. Sure, you can stealth to plant a mine in the middle of an enemy cluster. But most enemies that you can stealth by can easily be attacked and killed a few at a time--and trying to stealth can lead to exposure amidst said cluster. Not fun. Also, stealth is only possible in "solo mode" where you are only controlling one character at a time and it is very easy to accidentally switch back into normal mode and expose yourself. Even more fun if you were stealthing far away from your party members and tripped over a cutscene trigger, which automatically turned off your stealth.
23rd Apr '18 12:59:48 AM Diask
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[[folder: Action Adventure]]

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[[folder: Action [[folder:Action Adventure]]



[[folder: Action Game]]

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[[folder: Action [[folder:Action Game]]



[[folder: Fighting Game ]]
* Any fighting game that includes an invisibility, such as ''MortalKombat'', will end up being completely useless against A.I. opponents. It can also be bad for you, since you can't see your now-invisible character.

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[[folder: Fighting Game ]]
[[folder:Fighting Game]]
* Any fighting game that includes an invisibility, such as ''MortalKombat'', ''VideoGame/MortalKombat'', will end up being completely useless against A.I. opponents. It can also be bad for you, since you can't see your now-invisible character.



[[folder: First Person Shooter]]

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[[folder: First [[folder:First Person Shooter]]



** The first game progressively conforms to this trope outside of no-kill runs. In the beginning, the player has few weapons or enhancements; at least some stealth is essential, if only for sneaking up on enemies for a nonlethal takedown in one hit. Minimising bloodshed is also rewarded by positive interactions with some {{NPC}}s. Later in the game, enemies become more difficult to stealth by (but you can become entirely invisible to either humans or robots), and while they also become more dangerous, the player has been gaining enhancements such as regeneration and ballistic protection that let them survive combat, better equipment (or improving equipment they've had since the start), and improved skills. Plus, by this point in the game, you're fighting definitive bad guys. In fact, later attempts to stealth can often backfire: when a player gets into trouble and has to retreat, they can easily run into lethal crossfire if they haven't been killing as they go.

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** The first game progressively conforms to this trope outside of no-kill runs. In the beginning, the player has few weapons or enhancements; at least some stealth is essential, if only for sneaking up on enemies for a nonlethal takedown in one hit. Minimising bloodshed is also rewarded by positive interactions with some {{NPC}}s. Later in the game, enemies become more difficult to stealth by (but you can become entirely invisible to either humans or robots), and while they also become more dangerous, the player has been gaining enhancements such as regeneration and ballistic protection that let them survive combat, better equipment (or improving equipment they've had since the start), and improved skills. Plus, by this point in the game, you're fighting definitive definitely bad guys. In fact, later attempts to stealth can often backfire: when a player gets into trouble and has to retreat, they can easily run into lethal crossfire if they haven't been killing as they go.



* Semi-averted in ''VideoGame/{{Unreal}}'' - the invisibility pickup can let you sneak by Titans without being detected (that said, half the times you encounter them are unavoidable [[BossBattle Boss Battles]] - natch) but the Skaarj will almost always know you're there. Then again, this might be [[JustifiedTrope justified]] as Skaarj are far more intelligent and alert than Titans in terms of programming and backstory both.

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* Semi-averted in ''VideoGame/{{Unreal}}'' - the invisibility pickup can let you sneak by Titans without being detected (that said, half the times you encounter them are unavoidable [[BossBattle Boss Battles]] {{Boss Battle}}s - natch) but the Skaarj will almost always know you're there. Then again, this might be [[JustifiedTrope justified]] {{justified|Trope}} as Skaarj are far more intelligent and alert than Titans in terms of programming and backstory both.



* ''VideoGame/{{BioShock|1}}'' actually has a viable stealth mechanic, but 95% of players won't even notice, since your character is tough enough and ammo[=/=]health is plentiful enough for you to simply Rambo your way through the game. Combine this with the fact that you can't die in this game. This is in sharp contrast to ''VideoGame/SystemShock 2'' (which was on turn built on the ''VideoGame/{{Thief}}'' engine), where your character was much weaker and ammo[=/=]health was much less plentiful, pretty much forcing you to stealth through much of the game simply to survive.
* ''VideoGame/{{BioShock Infinite}}'' mostly thrives on frantic wide-open encounters with lots of enemies, making stealth useless as either enemies are scripted to spot you, or you can get as far as a free shot on the first enemy. However, it averts the trope HARD in one of the latter stages, where you are required to navigate a hospital-cum-asylum. The place is littered with lunatics who will ignore you... UNTIL one of their trumpet-headed overseers spots you, screams and sends potentially dozens of lunatics at you. This is also the only part of the game where ammo drops are in extremely short supply, so even if you showed up with two fully loaded weapons, after the first wave of lunatics you will undoubtedly be running low. All of this combines to make sneaking past the trumpet-heads a very viable option (possibly the only one on higher difficulties).

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* ''VideoGame/{{BioShock|1}}'' ''VideoGame/BioShock1'' actually has a viable stealth mechanic, but 95% of players won't even notice, since your character is tough enough and ammo[=/=]health is plentiful enough for you to simply Rambo your way through the game. Combine this with the fact that you can't die in this game. This is in sharp contrast to ''VideoGame/SystemShock 2'' (which was on turn built on the ''VideoGame/{{Thief}}'' engine), where your character was much weaker and ammo[=/=]health was much less plentiful, pretty much forcing you to stealth through much of the game simply to survive.
* ''VideoGame/{{BioShock Infinite}}'' ''VideoGame/BioShockInfinite'' mostly thrives on frantic wide-open encounters with lots of enemies, making stealth useless as either enemies are scripted to spot you, or you can get as far as a free shot on the first enemy. However, it averts the trope HARD in one of the latter stages, where you are required to navigate a hospital-cum-asylum. The place is littered with lunatics who will ignore you... UNTIL one of their trumpet-headed overseers spots you, screams and sends potentially dozens of lunatics at you. This is also the only part of the game where ammo drops are in extremely short supply, so even if you showed up with two fully loaded weapons, after the first wave of lunatics you will undoubtedly be running low. All of this combines to make sneaking past the trumpet-heads a very viable option (possibly the only one on higher difficulties).



[[folder: [=MMORPGs=] ]]

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[[folder: [=MMORPGs=] [[folder:[=MMORPGs=] ]]



** Most of these restrictions exist for game balance purposes. Any ship capable of using cloaking devices without penalty tends to suffer from [[CripplingOverspecialization crippling overspecialization]].

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** Most of these restrictions exist for game balance purposes. Any ship capable of using cloaking devices without penalty tends to suffer from [[CripplingOverspecialization crippling overspecialization]].{{crippling overspecialization}}.



* [[InvertedTrope Inverted]] in ''VideoGame/StarTrekOnline'', where one of the biggest complaints from Federation players in regards to the Klingon faction is the cloaking device. Per {{canon}}, the Federation is not supposed to use stealth technology. Since Klingons are primarily a PVP faction, what this ends up meaning is that you go into a match with the Klingon team automatically cloaked and the Federation team sitting ducks, with no way to know where the Klingon attack will come from. This led to the "Fedball" tactic, where Federation players would sit in a sphere shape so as to cover everyone's backs, and hope someone's finger would slip on their cloak button. Naturally, this makes for very boring matches. Klingon versus Klingon was even worse, because ''both'' teams would spend the entire match cloaked, so people would end up wandering around fruitlessly searching for an exposed player to pounce on. This has been fixed to some extent with enhanced Cloak detection techniques and a Federation starship with a cloaking device, but it can still be quite frustrating.

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* [[InvertedTrope Inverted]] {{Inverted|Trope}} in ''VideoGame/StarTrekOnline'', where one of the biggest complaints from Federation players in regards to the Klingon faction is the cloaking device. Per {{canon}}, the Federation is not supposed to use stealth technology. Since Klingons are primarily a PVP faction, what this ends up meaning is that you go into a match with the Klingon team automatically cloaked and the Federation team sitting ducks, with no way to know where the Klingon attack will come from. This led to the "Fedball" tactic, where Federation players would sit in a sphere shape so as to cover everyone's backs, and hope someone's finger would slip on their cloak button. Naturally, this makes for very boring matches. Klingon versus Klingon was even worse, because ''both'' teams would spend the entire match cloaked, so people would end up wandering around fruitlessly searching for an exposed player to pounce on. This has been fixed to some extent with enhanced Cloak detection techniques and a Federation starship with a cloaking device, but it can still be quite frustrating.



[[folder: Platform Game ]]

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[[folder: Platform Game ]][[folder:Platform Game]]



[[folder: Real Time Strategy ]]

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[[folder: Real [[folder:Real Time Strategy ]]Strategy]]



** In 3 it's slightly more useful- [[AwesomeButImpractical but only if]] you're playing as the Alliance, where Invisibility can be used in conjunction with the Archmage's MassTeleport to ravage an enemy's base. Night Elf women can hide themselves at night (but without attacking or moving), the Undead's Crypt Fiends regenerate much faster when buried, and the Orc Blademaster's invisibility makes him do more damage when he breaks it to attack.

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** In 3 it's slightly more useful- [[AwesomeButImpractical but only if]] you're playing as the Alliance, where Invisibility can be used in conjunction with the Archmage's MassTeleport MassTeleportation to ravage an enemy's base. Night Elf women can hide themselves at night (but without attacking or moving), the Undead's Crypt Fiends regenerate much faster when buried, and the Orc Blademaster's invisibility makes him do more damage when he breaks it to attack.



* Spy units in the ''SevenKingdoms'' real time strategy game and its sequel are extremely powerful to the point where you can defeat another human kingdom using only spies; spies do not work on any of the non-human factions. When disguised as an enemy unit they will respond to orders given to them by the enemy player so they cannot be detected by their simple lack of responding to orders. When inside an enemy fort they can try and convince enemy soldiers to join them, assassinate the fort's general, or even the enemy king. They can be promoted to generals by the enemy who does not know they are a spy whereupon they can at a command seize the fort and claim it and a portion of the soldiers therein, dependent on their loyalty, for the player who owns the spy. Finally, if the enemy king is killed in any way a general is picked to replace him, if that general is a spy in disguise then the entire enemy kingdom comes under the control of the player who sent the spy, defeating that enemy instantly.
* [[InvertedTrope Inverted in]] ''VideoGame/TheLordOfTheRingsWarOfTheRing''. The Elven Archers and Haradrim Slayers both are permanently invisible and are some of the highest damaging units available, so often there isn't reason to build a balanced force. Especially with the elves, which can outrange most other units and even towers. The detection units for both sides are largely useless in combat and die quickly.

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* Spy units in the ''SevenKingdoms'' ''VideoGame/SevenKingdoms'' real time strategy game and its sequel are extremely powerful to the point where you can defeat another human kingdom using only spies; spies do not work on any of the non-human factions. When disguised as an enemy unit they will respond to orders given to them by the enemy player so they cannot be detected by their simple lack of responding to orders. When inside an enemy fort they can try and convince enemy soldiers to join them, assassinate the fort's general, or even the enemy king. They can be promoted to generals by the enemy who does not know they are a spy whereupon they can at a command seize the fort and claim it and a portion of the soldiers therein, dependent on their loyalty, for the player who owns the spy. Finally, if the enemy king is killed in any way a general is picked to replace him, if that general is a spy in disguise then the entire enemy kingdom comes under the control of the player who sent the spy, defeating that enemy instantly.
* [[InvertedTrope Inverted in]] {{Inverted|Trope}} in ''VideoGame/TheLordOfTheRingsWarOfTheRing''. The Elven Archers and Haradrim Slayers both are permanently invisible and are some of the highest damaging units available, so often there isn't reason to build a balanced force. Especially with the elves, which can outrange most other units and even towers. The detection units for both sides are largely useless in combat and die quickly.



[[folder: Roguelike ]]
* In ''[[VideoGame/AncientDomainsOfMystery ADOM]]'', being stealthy tends to be rather more simply annoying than either productive or counterproductive. Most of what it does is make monsters that you'd have easily killed anyway not come to you, so you have to actually go up to them and bop them in the head.

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[[folder: Roguelike ]]
[[folder:Roguelike]]
* In ''[[VideoGame/AncientDomainsOfMystery ADOM]]'', ''VideoGame/AncientDomainsOfMystery'', being stealthy tends to be rather more simply annoying than either productive or counterproductive. Most of what it does is make monsters that you'd have easily killed anyway not come to you, so you have to actually go up to them and bop them in the head.



* ''VideoGame/FTLFasterThanLight'' has the Cloaking system, which is one of the best means of avoiding attacks at your disposal. However, the special options it grants for events usually just mean you're going to skip a fight, which you almost never want considering you have a limited number of (useful) encounters per sector.

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* ''VideoGame/FTLFasterThanLight'' has the Cloaking system, which is one of the best means of avoiding attacks at your disposal. However, the special options it grants for events usually just mean you're going to skip a fight, which you almost never rarely ever want considering you have a limited number of (useful) encounters per sector.



[[folder: Role Playing Game ]]

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[[folder: Role [[folder:Role Playing Game ]]Game]]



* The original ''VideoGame/PaperMario'' had sleeping enemies in one dungeon that would wake up if you walked past them at full speed. However, they are easy to avoid even awake, and depending on your timing, weren't even that much of a threat in combat anyway.

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* The original ''VideoGame/PaperMario'' ''VideoGame/PaperMario64'' had sleeping enemies in one dungeon that would wake up if you walked past them at full speed. However, they are easy to avoid even awake, and depending on your timing, weren't even that much of a threat in combat anyway.



* In ''VideoGame/CosmicStarHeroine'' it's possible to squeeze around some PreExistingEncounters without getting into fights, but since winning them[[note]]You can't run from battles in this game.[[/note]] [[AfterCombatRecovery restores all your hitpoints and gets you every used ability, program or item back]] on top of juicy experience points and money, there's no incentive to avoiding fights other than saving yourself some time and even then [[TakeYourTime there's no rush]].



[[folder: Shoot Em Up ]]

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[[folder: Shoot [[folder:Shoot Em Up ]]Up]]



[[folder: Stealth Based Game ]]

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[[folder: Stealth [[folder:Stealth Based Game ]]Game]]



[[folder: Survival Horror]]

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[[folder: Survival [[folder:Survival Horror]]



[[folder: Third Person Shooter ]]

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[[folder: Third [[folder:Third Person Shooter ]]Shooter]]



[[folder: Turn Based Strategy ]]

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[[folder: Turn [[folder:Turn Based Strategy ]]Strategy]]



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21st Apr '18 6:22:15 PM nombretomado
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* ''VideoGame/NeverwinterNights2'' falls squarely into this trope. Most of the enemies are simply cannon fodder that your party should have little trouble dealing with, and in the event you're up against a challenging one (i.e., a red dragon), stealth isn't an option anyways. It's {{egregious}} if you take the Shadow Thief line of quests; for one mission, for which you're encouraged to remain stealthy to break into a house, it makes zero difference if you just barge in waving your sword, and you might even get complimented more for doing so.

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* ''VideoGame/NeverwinterNights2'' falls squarely into this trope. Most of the enemies are simply cannon fodder that your party should have little trouble dealing with, and in the event you're up against a challenging one (i.e., a red dragon), stealth isn't an option anyways. It's {{egregious}} JustForFun/{{egregious}} if you take the Shadow Thief line of quests; for one mission, for which you're encouraged to remain stealthy to break into a house, it makes zero difference if you just barge in waving your sword, and you might even get complimented more for doing so.
19th Mar '18 10:47:20 AM BeerBaron
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* ''Franchise/TheElderScrolls'' both uses and averts this with the Stealth skill, as well as spells for Invisibility and Chameleon. A basic Invisibility spell has always made you invisible to everything but the undead (and sometimes, Daedra), until you try to manipulate or attack something. Chameleon operates by giving your character a percentage of transparency and it sticks for as long as the spell lasts, even if you do stuff; less than 100% Chameleon, however, and enemies are liable to see you if you move around a lot or hit them. 100% Chameleon can double as invincibility and almost [[GameBreaker break the game]].
** Immensely averted because none of the games feature an experience-based system (except the first, which has no stealth option), very few enemies must actually be killed to complete quests, and almost all great items are available very early through the five-finger discount. It makes money near-useless for anything but buying spells, which cannot be stolen.
** In ''[[VideoGame/TheElderScrollsIIDaggerfall Daggerfall]]'' you have a Stealth skill that somehow governs whether enemies would react to your presence. Sometimes an enemy will wander around despite you; sometimes an enemy will not turn if you approached from behind; despite it, enemies are still more than likely to rush towards you. There are spells like Invisibility True (constant invisibility until the time ran out) and Shadow (conceal yourself in shadows better), but any lesser concealment spell is useless in practice unless you stand still. The combat ability that makes Stealth worthwhile, Backstabbing, requires a Stealth check, but, despite doing more damage on the first stab, stronger enemies will then notice you and pummel you like normal. Other thief skills are based on separate skills, and the really powerful, bothersome enemies - the undead and the Daedra - can see an Invisible opponent.

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* ''Franchise/TheElderScrolls'' both uses and averts this with the Stealth skill, as well as spells for Invisibility and Chameleon. A basic Invisibility spell series has always made you invisible to everything but the undead (and sometimes, Daedra), until you try to manipulate or attack something. Chameleon operates by giving your character included a percentage of transparency and it sticks for as long as the spell lasts, even if you do stuff; less than 100% Chameleon, however, and enemies are liable to see you if you move around a lot or hit them. 100% Chameleon can double as invincibility and almost [[GameBreaker break the game]].
** Immensely averted because none of the games feature an experience-based system (except the first, which has no
stealth option), very few enemies must actually be killed system dating back to complete quests, ''Daggerfall'', with its usefulness heavily played with in different instances, often depending on the game in question and almost all great items are available very early through the five-finger discount. It makes money near-useless specific "use" you have for anything but buying spells, which cannot be stolen.
stealth. To note:
** In ''[[VideoGame/TheElderScrollsIIDaggerfall Daggerfall]]'' you have has a Stealth skill that somehow governs whether enemies would will react to your presence. Sometimes an enemy will wander around despite you; sometimes an enemy will not turn if you approached from behind; despite it, enemies are still more than likely to rush towards you. There are spells like Invisibility True (constant invisibility until the time ran out) and Shadow (conceal yourself in shadows better), but any lesser concealment spell is useless in practice unless you stand still. The combat ability that makes Stealth worthwhile, Backstabbing, requires a Stealth check, but, despite doing more damage on the first stab, stronger enemies will then notice you and pummel you like normal. Other thief skills are based on separate skills, and the really powerful, bothersome enemies - the undead and the Daedra - can see an Invisible opponent.



** ''[[VideoGame/TheElderScrollsVSkyrim Skyrim]]'' attempts to balance Oblivion's stealth system by adding levels of detection. Being closer to an enemy and/or in the light will make you more easily detected, while distance and shadows make you harder to detect. This stops you from being able to sit in front of enemies undetected and also helps you stealth kill enemies without them all seeing you. A glaring oversight to the balancing is that if you killed one enemy with a bow from the shadows, [[ConspicuouslySelectivePerception his buddy still might not detect you and not even flinch at his friend falling over dead]]. In one particular Thieves' Guild mission, the player is joined by two mandatory companions, and the party must sneak or fight their way through more than one room full of Falmer. Falmer cannot see, so one would think the stealth option would be fairly easy to pull off, but almost inevitably one of your companions ([[InformedAbility who are supposedly]] very successful thieves) will [[ArtificialStupidity make a noise or walk into one of the enemies]], triggering a massive fight.

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** ''[[VideoGame/TheElderScrollsVSkyrim Skyrim]]'' attempts to balance Oblivion's ''Oblivion''[='s=] stealth system by adding levels of detection. Being closer to an enemy and/or in the light will make you more easily detected, while distance and shadows make you harder to detect. This stops you from being able to sit in front of enemies undetected and also helps you stealth kill enemies without them all seeing you. A glaring oversight to the balancing is that if you killed one enemy with a bow from the shadows, [[ConspicuouslySelectivePerception his buddy still might not detect you and not even flinch at his friend falling over dead]]. In one particular Thieves' Guild ThievesGuild mission, the player is joined by two mandatory companions, and the party must sneak or fight their way through more than one room full of Falmer. Falmer cannot see, so one would think the stealth option would be fairly easy to pull off, but almost inevitably one of your companions ([[InformedAbility who are supposedly]] very successful thieves) will [[ArtificialStupidity make a noise or walk into one of the enemies]], triggering a massive fight.
4th Mar '18 8:36:31 PM nombretomado
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* ''{{Strife}}'' gives you a punch dagger and a poisoned crossbow to make stealth kills on living targets. However, most areas have alarms that you can't avoid triggering and/or robots that can't be killed with stealth.

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* ''{{Strife}}'' ''{{VideoGame/Strife}}'' gives you a punch dagger and a poisoned crossbow to make stealth kills on living targets. However, most areas have alarms that you can't avoid triggering and/or robots that can't be killed with stealth.
12th Jan '18 2:10:41 PM DastardlyDemolition
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Added DiffLines:

* In an effort to make the game even more action oriented than previous games, ''VideoGame/Fallout4'' made a series of changes to the gameplay with Stealth making a major change. Up to ''VideoGame/FalloutNewVegas'', the Sneak skill was based on the amount of points you put into the skill with perks adding onto it and making it easier to to sneak around and make better sneak attacks. ''Fallout 4'' however makes Sneak a Perk to be leveled up and only makes it 50% harder to be seen at level 23. To actually sneak you need [[LongList high Agility, the Sneak bobblehead's effect, U.S. Covert Operations Manual magazines' Perk "Covert Operations", Muffled or Shadowed armor, the Ace Operator perk (Only available in the ''Nuka-World'' DLC), silenced guns, and stealth boys]]. Suffice to say you will not be sneaking [[EarlyGameHell in the early game]] (or later parts for that matter.)
6th Jan '18 10:11:34 AM nombretomado
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* Being a HideoKojima series, ''VideoGame/{{Boktai}}'' makes much of its stealth elements, but it was only a necessity in the first game where being spotted meant being spammed by Klorofolun which clung to you in huge numbers, slowed you down, and would kill you in seconds. As the games went on and became more action-oriented they fell directly into this trope: the stealth elements are there but you'll rarely use them when the game doesn't force you. One change made in ''Lunar Knights'' is particularly annoying: instead of knocking on walls with A to lure monsters to that spot, you have to whistle by blowing in the microphone. It's hard to run for cover in time with a DS in your face.

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* Being a HideoKojima Creator/HideoKojima series, ''VideoGame/{{Boktai}}'' makes much of its stealth elements, but it was only a necessity in the first game where being spotted meant being spammed by Klorofolun which clung to you in huge numbers, slowed you down, and would kill you in seconds. As the games went on and became more action-oriented they fell directly into this trope: the stealth elements are there but you'll rarely use them when the game doesn't force you. One change made in ''Lunar Knights'' is particularly annoying: instead of knocking on walls with A to lure monsters to that spot, you have to whistle by blowing in the microphone. It's hard to run for cover in time with a DS in your face.
28th Dec '17 7:54:59 AM Cryoclaste
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* In the ''{{Pokemon}}'' games that let you catch and raise Pokémon, there are trainers that will force you into a battle if they see you. You have the option of fighting them right away for money and experience or avoiding eye-contact and battling them at a later time.

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* In the ''{{Pokemon}}'' ''Franchise/{{Pokemon}}'' games that let you catch and raise Pokémon, there are trainers that will force you into a battle if they see you. You have the option of fighting them right away for money and experience or avoiding eye-contact and battling them at a later time.
27th Nov '17 5:05:13 PM SuperFeatherYoshi
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** Another factor that made stealth useless in ''Generals'' is the fact that ''every'' base defense structure can detect stealth. Yes, even Stinger Sites, which ar literally just three guys with Stinger launchers and some sandbags. This made sneaking into enemy bases with stealth units alone next to impossible.

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** Another factor that made stealth useless in ''Generals'' is the fact that ''every'' base defense structure can detect stealth. Yes, even Stinger Sites, which ar are literally just three guys with Stinger launchers and some sandbags. This made sneaking into enemy bases with stealth units alone next to impossible.
27th Nov '17 5:03:07 PM SuperFeatherYoshi
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Added DiffLines:

** Another factor that made stealth useless in ''Generals'' is the fact that ''every'' base defense structure can detect stealth. Yes, even Stinger Sites, which ar literally just three guys with Stinger launchers and some sandbags. This made sneaking into enemy bases with stealth units alone next to impossible.
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