History Main / TanksButNoTanks

3rd Nov '17 3:45:32 PM CrankyStorming
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* In Harry Turtledove's The Great War series, this trope would be Barrels, but No Barrels, which loses some of its flavor.

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* In Harry Turtledove's [[Literature/Timeline191 The Great War War]] series, this trope would be [[CallARabbitASmeerp Barrels, but No Barrels, Barrels]], which loses some of its flavor.
31st Oct '17 7:32:17 PM dlchen145
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* Massively averted in the 1946 British film ''Theirs Is The Glory'' about the actions of the British 1st Airborne Division during Operation Market Garden only 2 years earlier. Shot on the real war-ravaged Dutch locations, using many of the actual participants, it included re-enactments of the fighting that employed genuine German equipment, including a fully-functional Tiger tank as well as several Panthers, one of which is convincingly destroyed by a paratrooper with a [[CoolGuns/RocketsMissilesAndGrenadeLaunchers PIAT]].

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* Massively averted Averted in the 1946 British film ''Theirs Is The Glory'' about the actions of the British 1st Airborne Division during Operation Market Garden only 2 years earlier. Shot on the real war-ravaged Dutch locations, using many of the actual participants, it included re-enactments of the fighting that employed genuine German equipment, including a fully-functional Tiger tank as well as several Panthers, one of which is convincingly destroyed by a paratrooper with a [[CoolGuns/RocketsMissilesAndGrenadeLaunchers PIAT]].
28th Oct '17 1:01:30 PM TheMysteriousTroper
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** The M4A1s were actually Canadian Grizzlies, a license built M4A1 - the Canadian Dry Pin (CDP) tracks give it away. American built M4A1 Shermans had rubber block tracks.

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** The M4A1s [=M4A1=]s were actually Canadian Grizzlies, a license built M4A1 [=M4A1=] - the Canadian Dry Pin (CDP) tracks give it away. American built M4A1 [=M4A1=] Shermans had rubber block tracks.
23rd Sep '17 8:04:40 AM darrenr
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* Massively averted in the 1946 British film ''Theirs Is The Glory'' about the actions of the British 1st Airborne Division during Operation Market Garden only 2 years earlier. Shot on the real war-ravaged Dutch locations, using many of the actual participants, it included re-enactments of the fighting that employed genuine (captured) German equipment, including a fully-functional Tiger tank as well as several Panthers, one of which is convincingly destroyed by a paratrooper with a [[CoolGuns/RocketsMissilesAndGrenadeLaunchers PIAT]].

to:

* Massively averted in the 1946 British film ''Theirs Is The Glory'' about the actions of the British 1st Airborne Division during Operation Market Garden only 2 years earlier. Shot on the real war-ravaged Dutch locations, using many of the actual participants, it included re-enactments of the fighting that employed genuine (captured) German equipment, including a fully-functional Tiger tank as well as several Panthers, one of which is convincingly destroyed by a paratrooper with a [[CoolGuns/RocketsMissilesAndGrenadeLaunchers PIAT]].
31st Aug '17 12:13:45 AM YT45
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* ''The Battle of Kutno'' paintings by Jerzy Kossak, for example [[http://gunter-spb.livejournal.com/1450459.html here (1939 version at top, 1943 version below)]]. Both paintings depicts Polish light cavalry attacking Nazi tanks with lances [[RockBeatsLaser and winning]], ''very loosely'' based on a Polish calavry unit pursuing German infantry and engaging their tank reinforcements[[note]]The real battle of Kutno was won by the tanks and artillery of the 10th Cavalry Brigade, Poland's only fully mechanized unit among one of Europe's last large traditional cavalry forces. Both sides used the event as propaganda, the Germans claiming their vast technological superiority and the Polish claiming that they had the ''balls'' to [[TheDeterminator fight that way]]. During WWII there actually were cases of cavalrymen attacking tanks, and even succeeding and surviving, but they used grenades, not cold weapons.[[/note]]. Tanks in 1943 versions somewhat resemble British Churchills and Matildas, tanks in 1939 version are purely author's imagination -- or, if you squint ''really'' hard, somewhat resemble the [[https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%A2%D0%93_(%D1%82%D0%B0%D0%BD%D0%BA) Grote tank]]: an obscure, early 30es experimental Soviet design created by a visiting German engineer that went nowhere and remained in a single half-finished prototype.

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* ''The Battle of Kutno'' paintings by Jerzy Kossak, for example [[http://gunter-spb.livejournal.com/1450459.html here (1939 version at top, 1943 version below)]]. Both paintings depicts Polish light cavalry attacking Nazi tanks with lances [[RockBeatsLaser and winning]], ''very loosely'' based on a Polish calavry unit pursuing German infantry and engaging their tank reinforcements[[note]]The real battle of Kutno was won by the tanks and artillery of the 10th Cavalry Brigade, Poland's only fully mechanized unit among one of Europe's last large traditional cavalry forces. Both sides used the event as propaganda, the Germans claiming their vast technological superiority and the Polish claiming that they had the ''balls'' to [[TheDeterminator fight that way]]. During WWII there actually were cases of cavalrymen attacking tanks, and even succeeding and surviving, but they used grenades, not cold weapons.[[/note]]. In fact, Polish horse cavalry (who had long since gotten rid of their lances) had some remarkably effective anti-tank tactics (provided the horsemen could use concealment to get in close, but that's what horse cav was best at by 1939) that not only took out some panzers, but wound up being copied by the German (who used quite a bit of horse cavalry on the Eastern Front, they just didn't like to admit it)[[/note]]. Tanks in 1943 versions somewhat resemble British Churchills and Matildas, tanks in 1939 version are purely author's imagination -- or, if you squint ''really'' hard, somewhat resemble the [[https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%A2%D0%93_(%D1%82%D0%B0%D0%BD%D0%BA) Grote tank]]: an obscure, early 30es experimental Soviet design created by a visiting German engineer that went nowhere and remained in a single half-finished prototype.
30th Aug '17 11:59:57 PM YT45
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* The definition of "tank" was flexible and hadn't been formalized in the early days of armored warfare. The term "tank" itself was only a codename to keep their real nature a secret from the enemy. When you get right down to it, none of the early tanks--the British Mark I & IV, the French Schneider & St. Chamond, or the German [=A7V=] Sturmpanzerwagen-- would be considered tanks, as they all lacked turrets and had guns with limited traverse. The first recognizable tank was the French Renault FT-17 light tank, which featured a rotating turret and modern shape, but at the time these features had nothing at all to do with the military definition of a tank. There were other (rarer) "tanks" that weren't technically tanks: for example, the experimental A39 Tortoise heavy "tank" developed by the British during World War II was really an assault gun with a fixed superstructure similar to the German Jagdtiger. Americans waffled on the designation for the experimental T28, another heavy "assault gun" developed late in World War II. It was originally termed "gun motor carriage," or self-propelled gun, but later redesignated as a "tank."

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* The definition of "tank" was flexible and hadn't been formalized in the early days of armored warfare. The term "tank" itself was only a codename deliberately-obfuscatory term used at the factories to keep their real nature a secret from enemy spies; the enemy.assembly-line workers building the new "landships"[[note]] This term gets used a couple of times in the single-player tank campaign of ''VideoGame/Battlefield1''[[/note]] (which was intended to be the proper term) were told that the vehicles would be used to haul drinking water in areas without improved roads. The fake name caught on, and the rest is history. When you get right down to it, none of the early tanks--the British Mark I & IV, the French Schneider & St. Chamond, or the German [=A7V=] Sturmpanzerwagen-- would be considered tanks, as they all lacked turrets and had guns with limited traverse. The first recognizable tank was the French Renault FT-17 light tank, which featured a rotating turret and modern shape, but at the time these features had nothing at all to do with the military definition of a tank. There were other (rarer) "tanks" that weren't technically tanks: for example, the experimental A39 Tortoise heavy "tank" developed by the British during World War II was really an assault gun with a fixed superstructure similar to the German Jagdtiger. Americans waffled on the designation for the experimental T28, another heavy "assault gun" developed late in World War II. It was originally termed "gun motor carriage," or self-propelled gun, but later redesignated as a "tank."
23rd Jul '17 11:35:51 AM darrenr
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* Massively averted in the 1946 British film ''Theirs Is The Glory'' about the actions of the British 1st Airborne Division during Operation Market Garden only 2 years earlier. Shot on the real war-ravaged Dutch locations, using many of the actual participants, it included re-enactments of the fighting that employed captured German equipment, including a fully-functional Tiger tank as well as several Panthers, one of which is convincingly destroyed by a paratrooper with a [[CoolGuns/RocketsMissilesAndGrenadeLaunchers PIAT]].

to:

* Massively averted in the 1946 British film ''Theirs Is The Glory'' about the actions of the British 1st Airborne Division during Operation Market Garden only 2 years earlier. Shot on the real war-ravaged Dutch locations, using many of the actual participants, it included re-enactments of the fighting that employed captured genuine (captured) German equipment, including a fully-functional Tiger tank as well as several Panthers, one of which is convincingly destroyed by a paratrooper with a [[CoolGuns/RocketsMissilesAndGrenadeLaunchers PIAT]].
23rd Jul '17 11:14:25 AM darrenr
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Added DiffLines:

* Massively averted in the 1946 British film ''Theirs Is The Glory'' about the actions of the British 1st Airborne Division during Operation Market Garden only 2 years earlier. Shot on the real war-ravaged Dutch locations, using many of the actual participants, it included re-enactments of the fighting that employed captured German equipment, including a fully-functional Tiger tank as well as several Panthers, one of which is convincingly destroyed by a paratrooper with a [[CoolGuns/RocketsMissilesAndGrenadeLaunchers PIAT]].
16th Jul '17 5:38:59 PM nombretomado
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* ''Film/ToHellAndBack'', the [[RealityIsUnrealistic semi-true]] autobiography of AudieMurphy's WW2 service, has him jump into a burning M4 Sherman to fire its [[{{BFG}} 50-caliber machine gun]] at German troops, in the action that earned him the Medal of Honor. He actually jumped into an M10 Tank Destroyer, although the two are very similar (The M10 Wolverine Tank Destroyer was based on the Sherman.)

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* ''Film/ToHellAndBack'', the [[RealityIsUnrealistic semi-true]] autobiography of AudieMurphy's WW2 Creator/AudieMurphy's [=WW2=] service, has him jump into a burning M4 Sherman to fire its [[{{BFG}} 50-caliber machine gun]] at German troops, in the action that earned him the Medal of Honor. He actually jumped into an M10 Tank Destroyer, although the two are very similar (The M10 Wolverine Tank Destroyer was based on the Sherman.)



* It has to be said that the Bovington tank museum in Britain appears to be more sympathetic to the needs of film and TV than most. While, understandably, it will not loan its only Tiger - [[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9eUiRBh0YHE the only running model]] left in the ''world'' - it is less stringent about other exhibits. There was a recent BBC documentary/drama which incorporated a running Cromwell tank from 1944, in ''exactly'' the correct Normandy context, which could only have come from one place. This was accompanied by other running examples of WW2 British hardware, such as Universal Carriers, all in the context of depicting and illustrating the often-overlooked British contribution to the Normandy landings. The documentary makers also had the use of a Mark IV Panzer.

to:

* It has to be said that the Bovington tank museum in Britain appears to be more sympathetic to the needs of film and TV than most. While, understandably, it will not loan its only Tiger - [[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9eUiRBh0YHE the only running model]] left in the ''world'' - it is less stringent about other exhibits. There was a recent BBC documentary/drama which incorporated a running Cromwell tank from 1944, in ''exactly'' the correct Normandy context, which could only have come from one place. This was accompanied by other running examples of WW2 [=WW2=] British hardware, such as Universal Carriers, all in the context of depicting and illustrating the often-overlooked British contribution to the Normandy landings. The documentary makers also had the use of a Mark IV Panzer.



* To further confuse the casual student of military history, the WW2 British army fielded both Tank and Armoured Brigades. 'Tank' units were semi independant formations organised to be attached to infantry divisions for support while 'Armoured' units were part of an Armoured Division. While the 'tank' units normally had dedicated 'Infantry' tanks like the Churchill, some 'tank' units were equipped with exactly the same Shermans as 'Armoured' regiments leading the untrained observer to wonder what the fuss was about. Add in the confusion in the way what is called a 'Regiment' is really a battalion sized unit that is part of it's parent regiment but commanded as part of a brigade, and it is little wonder many casual military history buffs give up and research Panzer divisions instead.

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* To further confuse the casual student of military history, the WW2 [=WW2=] British army fielded both Tank and Armoured Brigades. 'Tank' units were semi independant formations organised to be attached to infantry divisions for support while 'Armoured' units were part of an Armoured Division. While the 'tank' units normally had dedicated 'Infantry' tanks like the Churchill, some 'tank' units were equipped with exactly the same Shermans as 'Armoured' regiments leading the untrained observer to wonder what the fuss was about. Add in the confusion in the way what is called a 'Regiment' is really a battalion sized unit that is part of it's parent regiment but commanded as part of a brigade, and it is little wonder many casual military history buffs give up and research Panzer divisions instead.
15th Jul '17 1:02:02 PM nombretomado
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* The German Tiger tanks in ''Film/BattleOfTheBulge'' (1965) were actually American M47 Pattons ([[ColorCodedForYourConvenience colour-coded grey]], when German tanks of this period were in dark yellow-dark brown-dark green camouflage), and the American M4 Shermans were actually M24 Chaffee light tanks (in camouflage, when American tanks of this period were olive drab). On the bright side, this did make the US tanks look appropriately smaller than the German ones, as well as using WorldWarII era Chaffees. In reality only two Chaffees saw battle in December 1944.

to:

* The German Tiger tanks in ''Film/BattleOfTheBulge'' (1965) were actually American M47 Pattons ([[ColorCodedForYourConvenience colour-coded grey]], when German tanks of this period were in dark yellow-dark brown-dark green camouflage), and the American M4 Shermans were actually M24 Chaffee light tanks (in camouflage, when American tanks of this period were olive drab). On the bright side, this did make the US tanks look appropriately smaller than the German ones, as well as using WorldWarII UsefulNotes/WorldWarII era Chaffees. In reality only two Chaffees saw battle in December 1944.



* In UsefulNotes/NewZealand during WorldWarII, the Minister for Public Works, Bob Semple, commissioned the construction of the [[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semple_tank Semple Tank]] (in fact, it was just an [[ClosestThingWeGot armored tractor]]). It had no blueprints, had numerous design flaws, never got beyond the prototype stage, and was laughed at by the public. However, it is remembered most as an example of the New Zealand do-it-yourself ethos.

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* In UsefulNotes/NewZealand during WorldWarII, UsefulNotes/WorldWarII, the Minister for Public Works, Bob Semple, commissioned the construction of the [[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semple_tank Semple Tank]] (in fact, it was just an [[ClosestThingWeGot armored tractor]]). It had no blueprints, had numerous design flaws, never got beyond the prototype stage, and was laughed at by the public. However, it is remembered most as an example of the New Zealand do-it-yourself ethos.
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