History Main / ScifiGhetto

24th Jun '18 5:38:37 AM Morgenthaler
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* ''Series/ThePrisoner'': Played straight in that star/producer Patrick [=McGoohan=] always denied the series was a science-fiction show, but is now averted with the series popularly considered one of the greatest television series ever made and a profound science-fiction parable, much like Creator/GeorgeOrwell's ''Literature/NineteenEightyFour''.

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* ''Series/ThePrisoner'': ''Series/ThePrisoner1967'': Played straight in that star/producer Patrick [=McGoohan=] always denied the series was a science-fiction show, but is now averted with the series popularly considered one of the greatest television series ever made and a profound science-fiction parable, much like Creator/GeorgeOrwell's ''Literature/NineteenEightyFour''.
21st Jun '18 3:06:26 PM CurledUpWithDakka
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** ''ComicBook/{{Watchmen}}'' won a UsefulNotes/HugoAward and was declared one of the 100 best English-language novels by ''Time''. When people read it, they are often stunned by its depth... ''when'' they read it. When they don't, they say, "Oh, if it's so good, why isn't it [[QualityByPopularVote as popular as Batman and Superman]] comics?" Which, of course, [[CriticalResearchFailyre ignores the fact that ''Watchmen'' is one of the best selling comic books of all time]], suggesting that the answer is "because it's only one volume."

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** ''ComicBook/{{Watchmen}}'' won a UsefulNotes/HugoAward and was declared one of the 100 best English-language novels by ''Time''. When people read it, they are often stunned by its depth... ''when'' they read it. When they don't, they say, "Oh, if it's so good, why isn't it [[QualityByPopularVote as popular as Batman and Superman]] comics?" Which, of course, [[CriticalResearchFailyre [[CriticalResearchFailure ignores the fact that ''Watchmen'' is one of the best selling comic books of all time]], suggesting that the answer is "because it's only one volume."
20th Jun '18 4:08:12 AM RedScharlach
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* ''Anime/NeonGenesisEvangelion'' is an aversion - despite its ''very'' SciFi plot, it's one of the most critically acclaimed anime series of ''all time''. TheMovie finale to the series, ''End of Evangelion'', was even included on a ''Best Animated Movies''[[note]]That's right, not best ''anime'' movies, but best ''animated'' movies[[/note]] [[http://www.timeout.com/newyork/movies/100-best-animated-movies-list#tab_panel_4 list made by professional film critics.]]

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* ''Anime/NeonGenesisEvangelion'' is an aversion - -- despite its ''very'' SciFi plot, it's one of the most critically acclaimed anime series of ''all time''. TheMovie finale to the series, ''End of Evangelion'', was even included on a ''Best Animated Movies''[[note]]That's right, not best ''anime'' movies, but best ''animated'' movies[[/note]] [[http://www.timeout.com/newyork/movies/100-best-animated-movies-list#tab_panel_4 list made by professional film critics.]]



* ''[[Comicbook/{{Battle}} Charley's War]]''. It's probably the most underestimated British graphic novel/magazine comic series sold in the States, made worse by bookstores stacking them along with ''ComicBook/JudgeDredd'' and other ''ComicBook/TwoThousandAD'' titles - because Pat Mills wrote it. It's an extremely realistic series of WWI war stories.
* As mentioned in passing above, there's now a bit of a ghetto where the only "serious" or "artistic" comics are ones that have no science fictional or fantastical elements to them.

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* ''[[Comicbook/{{Battle}} Charley's War]]''. War]]'': It's probably the most underestimated British graphic novel/magazine comic series sold in the States, made worse by bookstores stacking them along with ''ComicBook/JudgeDredd'' and other ''ComicBook/TwoThousandAD'' titles - -- because Pat Mills wrote it. It's an extremely realistic series of WWI war stories.
* As mentioned in passing above, there's now a bit of a ghetto where the only "serious" or "artistic" comics are ones that have no science fictional fiction or fantastical elements to them.



* Sci-fi comics form their own little sub-ghetto, often being treated as being less 'worthy' than literary science fiction and movie / TV science fiction (which are themselves often considered lesser than literary science fiction).

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* Sci-fi comics form their own little sub-ghetto, often being treated as being less 'worthy' than literary science fiction and movie / TV movie[=/=]TV science fiction (which are themselves often considered lesser than literary science fiction).



** A common sentiment even among comic fans concerned the character Batroc the Leaper when he was adapted into the MCU with ''Film/CaptainAmericaTheWinterSoldier''. There were a lot of people praising how 'somehow they made Batroc cool', when Batroc had often beforehand been one of Captain America's most reliably capable enemies and an EnsembleDarkhorse due to being a BadassNormal NobleDemon who just so happened to be a crazy looking frenchman. There's possibly some unintentional nationalism in place as people seemed to assume he was a CheeseEatingSurrenderMonkeys cliché simply for being French.
** A number of articles ran during the premier of ''Series/JessicaJones2015'' Season 2 due to them featuring the Whizzer, a Golden Age superhero who served as an AlternativeCompanyEquivelent of The Flash, positing that the show 'fixed' the character. In the show, he's depicted as an overweight awkward nerd who's brutally murdered by the BigBad of the season, who's attempts to seek Jessica's help initially are dismissed because she refused to take him seriously. ''How'', exactly this is considered 'fixing' him is unclear.

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** A common sentiment even among comic fans concerned the character Batroc the Leaper when he was adapted into the MCU with ''Film/CaptainAmericaTheWinterSoldier''. There were a lot of people praising how 'somehow they made Batroc cool', when Batroc had often beforehand been one of Captain America's most reliably capable enemies and an EnsembleDarkhorse due to being a BadassNormal NobleDemon who just so happened to be a crazy looking frenchman. crazy-looking Frenchman. There's possibly some unintentional nationalism xenophobia in place as people seemed to assume he was a CheeseEatingSurrenderMonkeys cliché simply for being French.
** A number of articles ran during the premier of ''Series/JessicaJones2015'' Season 2 due to them featuring the Whizzer, a Golden Age superhero who served as an AlternativeCompanyEquivelent AlternativeCompanyEquivalent of The Flash, positing that the show 'fixed' the character. In the show, he's depicted as an overweight awkward nerd who's brutally murdered by the BigBad of the season, who's whose attempts to seek Jessica's help initially are dismissed because she refused to take him seriously. ''How'', ''How'' exactly this is considered 'fixing' him is unclear.



* Even compliments can do this at times. Creator/RogerEbert's [[http://rogerebert.suntimes.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080716/reviews/55996637 review]] of ''Film/TheDarkKnight'' starts off by declaring

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* Even compliments can do this at times. Creator/RogerEbert's [[http://rogerebert.suntimes.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080716/reviews/55996637 review]] of ''Film/TheDarkKnight'' starts off by declaringdeclaring:



* ''Film/DonnieDarko'' is almost always interpreted as an [[EveryoneIsJesusInPurgatory allegorical]] MindScrew rather than a fantasy film about a unstable time loop that Donnie has to [[StableTimeLoop fix.]] [[WordOfGod Richard Kelly]] has repeatedly said it is a comic book movie, and Donnie is a super hero, and the DirectorsCut drives this home.
* ''Film/GetOut2017'' averted this and MinorityShowGhetto so far. It gets rave reviews from critics, is a huge commercial success, and touted as the ''most'' succesful directorial debut by a black director. It is classified as horror by both critics and Peele himself repeatedly, altough some classified it as "social thriller". And now the movie ''impressively'' broke OutOfTheGhetto with a whooping ''four'' Oscar nominations for Best Actor, Screenplay, Director, and ''Best Picture'', a first for horror movies since the below-mentioned ''Film/SilenceOfTheLambs'' and ''Film/TheSixthSense'', and both was released in ''the nineties''.

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* ''Film/DonnieDarko'' is almost always interpreted as an [[EveryoneIsJesusInPurgatory allegorical]] MindScrew rather than a fantasy film about a an unstable time loop that Donnie has to [[StableTimeLoop fix.]] [[WordOfGod Richard Kelly]] has repeatedly said it is a comic book movie, and Donnie is a super hero, superhero, and the DirectorsCut drives this home.
* ''Film/GetOut2017'' averted this and MinorityShowGhetto so far. It gets rave reviews from critics, is a huge commercial success, and touted as the ''most'' succesful successful directorial debut by a black director. It is classified as horror by both critics and Peele himself repeatedly, altough although some classified it as "social thriller". And now then the movie ''impressively'' broke OutOfTheGhetto with a whooping ''four'' Oscar nominations for Best Actor, Screenplay, Director, and ''Best Picture'', a first for horror movies since the below-mentioned ''Film/SilenceOfTheLambs'' and ''Film/TheSixthSense'', and both was of which were released in ''the nineties''.



* Some fans of ''Film/TheMatrix'' refused to call it sci-fi, as apparently "It's not sci-fi unless it's in space/the future".[[note]]Not only is this not generally held among SF fans, but alternate history is considered a sub genre of SF. Those stories don't really correspond to our time stream at all but are often roughly in our past. Also time travel stories are frequently set in the past and may begin in the present day.[[/note]] Even though it was explicitly set ''in the aftermath of a RobotWar''. Not to mention that it ''was'' set in the future; the sequences apparently taking place in ThePresentDay are illusionary, a virtual reality transmitted directly to the brains of artificially-grown humans.

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* Some fans of ''Film/TheMatrix'' refused to call it sci-fi, as apparently "It's not sci-fi unless it's in space/the future".[[note]]Not only is this a belief not generally held among SF fans, but alternate history is considered a sub genre sub-genre of SF. Those stories don't really correspond to our time stream at all but are often roughly in our past. Also time travel stories are frequently set in the past and may begin in the present day.[[/note]] Even though it was explicitly set ''in the aftermath of a RobotWar''. Not to mention that it ''was'' set in the future; the sequences apparently taking place in ThePresentDay are illusionary, a virtual reality transmitted directly to the brains of artificially-grown humans.



* ''Film/{{Pandorum}}'' was hardly a critical success at the box office. It was marketed as a horror film, but in the end explained everything, probably annoying the hell out of people [[GainaxEnding who like their horror left mysterious and unexplained]]. However as a scifi film it's pretty good.
* ''Film/TheSilenceOfTheLambs'', one of only three films to win all of the "Big Five" UsefulNotes/{{Academy Award}}s[[note]]Best Actor, Best Actress, Best Director, Best Writing (Adapted Screenplay), and Best Picture. The other two films are ''Film/ItHappenedOneNight'' and ''Film/OneFlewOverTheCuckoosNest''.[[/note]], is almost never referred to as a horror film, despite it being about a SerialKiller who [[ImAHumanitarian eats people]] and another one who [[GenuineHumanHide flays women and wears their skin]]. It is almost always referred to as a PsychologicalThriller, and indeed helped to lay out [[FollowTheLeader a template for such films]] in TheNineties, in which (usually female) police protagonists hunted down serial killers and often found themselves nearly getting killed by them -- and like ''Silence'', very rarely would those films be called horror.

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* ''Film/{{Pandorum}}'' was hardly a critical success at the box office. It was marketed as a horror film, but in the end explained everything, probably annoying the hell out of people [[GainaxEnding who like their horror left mysterious and unexplained]]. However as a scifi film sci-fi film, it's pretty good.
* ''Film/TheSilenceOfTheLambs'', one of only three films to win all of the "Big Five" UsefulNotes/{{Academy Award}}s[[note]]Best Actor, Best Actress, Best Director, Best Writing (Adapted Screenplay), and Best Picture. The other two films are ''Film/ItHappenedOneNight'' and ''Film/OneFlewOverTheCuckoosNest''.[[/note]], is almost never referred to as a horror film, despite it being about a SerialKiller who [[ImAHumanitarian eats people]] and another one who [[GenuineHumanHide flays women and wears their skin]]. It is almost always referred to as a PsychologicalThriller, and indeed helped to lay out [[FollowTheLeader a template for such films]] in TheNineties, in which (usually female) police protagonists hunted down serial killers and often found themselves nearly getting killed by them -- and like them . Like ''Silence'', very rarely would those films be called horror.



** Creator/LiamNeeson said in a [[Creator/TheBBC Radio 4]] interview "Science fiction is set in the future, and this is set a long time ago, in a galaxy far, far away".

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** Creator/LiamNeeson said in a [[Creator/TheBBC Radio 4]] interview "Science fiction is set in the future, and this is set a long time ago, in a galaxy far, far away".away."



*** Let's not forget that ''Annie Hall'' resides in a deeper ghetto: both the '''ComedyGhetto''' and the subset '''Romantic Comedy Ghetto''' - the latter of which is even looked down on ''worse'' by science fiction fans and the male demographic.

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*** Let's not forget that ''Annie Hall'' resides in a deeper ghetto: both the '''ComedyGhetto''' and the subset '''Romantic Comedy Ghetto''' - -- the latter of which is even looked down on ''worse'' by science fiction fans and the male demographic.



*** Creator/ToshiroMifune was actually the first choice to play Obi-Wan and he turned it down for a similar reason, along with the fact he was self conscious about his English skills.

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*** Creator/ToshiroMifune was actually the first choice to play Obi-Wan and he turned it down for a similar reason, along with the fact he was self conscious self-conscious about his English language skills.



** There's a long story behind this, but the short version is that (1) film buffs enjoy good genre films, because they're usually the best looking movies of any given era, (2) the Auteur theory latched on to a "genre" director (Alfred Hitchcock) as a shining example of an Auteur, which had (and still has) a "halo" effect on other genre films as being artistically worthy projects (for a director, at least), (3) genre films are usually remembered much longer, and (4) they're commercially viable, and Criterion is a business.

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** There's a long story behind this, but the short version is that (1) film buffs enjoy good genre films, because they're usually the best looking best-looking movies of any given era, (2) the Auteur theory latched on to a "genre" director (Alfred Hitchcock) as a shining example of an Auteur, which had (and still has) a "halo" effect on other genre films as being artistically worthy projects (for a director, at least), (3) genre films are usually remembered much longer, and (4) they're commercially viable, and Criterion is a business.



* TheWestern also long suffered from this kind of effect, even during its heyday in the '40s and '50s. This is demonstrated by the way many critics wrote that ''Film/HighNoon'' was "more than a Western" or movie histories that proceeded from the belief that the {{Spaghetti Western}}s of the mid-1960 were the first ones to revise and deconstruct the genre, apparently unaware that e. g. ''Film/TheSearchers'' (1956) even existed, quite possibly because it was directed by genre veteran Creator/JohnFord. It's notable too that only three Westerns have ever won the Oscar for Best Picture.[[note]]''Film/{{Cimarron}}'', ''Film/DancesWithWolves'' and ''Film/{{Unforgiven}}'', for the record. Note the sixty year gap between the first two.[[/note]]Even Spaghetti Westerns were VindicatedByHistory, both for their enduring popularity and influence on pop culture. Roger Ebert reviewed ''Film/TheGoodTheBadAndTheUgly'' as one of his first films and gave it three stars and admitted when he put it on his Great Movies list that the movie was a four star film and that the only reason he had given it 3 stars back in his original review was that a four star review would have been too unexpected at the time.
** Westerns made outside of The United States Of America and Italy still get this a lot though. One of the previews of the Franco-Belgian film "Les Cowboys" notes that it is thankfully not a French Western. As it is a place where people such as Creator/{{Moebius}} came from, you would expect more respect from critics.

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* TheWestern also long suffered from this kind of effect, even during its heyday in the '40s and '50s. This is demonstrated by the way many critics wrote that ''Film/HighNoon'' was "more than a Western" or movie histories that proceeded from the belief that the {{Spaghetti Western}}s of the mid-1960 were the first ones to revise and deconstruct the genre, apparently unaware that e. g. ''Film/TheSearchers'' (1956) even existed, quite possibly because it was directed by genre veteran Creator/JohnFord. It's notable too that only three Westerns have ever won the Oscar for Best Picture.[[note]]''Film/{{Cimarron}}'', ''Film/DancesWithWolves'' and ''Film/{{Unforgiven}}'', for the record. Note the sixty year sixty-year gap between the first two.[[/note]]Even Spaghetti Westerns were VindicatedByHistory, both for their enduring popularity and influence on pop culture. Roger Ebert reviewed ''Film/TheGoodTheBadAndTheUgly'' as one of his first films and gave it three stars and admitted when he put it on his Great Movies list that the movie was a four star four-star film and that the only reason he had given it 3 stars back in his original review was that a four star four-star review would have been too unexpected at the time.
** Westerns made outside of The the United States Of America and Italy still get this a lot though. One of the previews of the Franco-Belgian film "Les Cowboys" notes that it is thankfully not a French Western. As it is a place where people such as Creator/{{Moebius}} came from, you would expect more respect from critics.



** Kevin Feige was quite fond of saying that ''Film/CaptainAmericaTheWinterSoldier'' is a [[ConspiracyThriller "political thriller"]] that just happens to star a [[ComicBook/CaptainAmerica patriotic Super-Soldier]]. Though given much of the rest of Marvel Studios' output - especially the next example - this case is probably less trying to distance itself from the genre and more bragging about said genre's versatility.

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** Kevin Feige was quite fond of saying that ''Film/CaptainAmericaTheWinterSoldier'' is a [[ConspiracyThriller "political thriller"]] that just happens to star a [[ComicBook/CaptainAmerica patriotic Super-Soldier]]. Though given much of the rest of Marvel Studios' output - -- especially the next example - -- this case is probably less trying to distance itself from the genre and more bragging about said genre's versatility.



* ''Film/PansLabyrinth'' is a DarkFantasy movie that is critically acclaimed, and got a twenty minute standing ovation when it was played at the Cannes Film Festival. But it hasn't stopped some viewers from trying to interpret the fantasy elements as figments of Ofelia's imagination - despite the film making it clear that they're real and WordOfGod confirming it.

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* ''Film/PansLabyrinth'' is a DarkFantasy movie that is critically acclaimed, and got a twenty minute twenty-minute standing ovation when it was played at the Cannes Film Festival. But it hasn't stopped some viewers from trying to interpret the fantasy elements as figments of Ofelia's imagination - -- despite the film making it clear that they're real and WordOfGod confirming it.



* In-universe example in ''Literature/TheJaneAustenBookClub''. TheOneGuy is a sci-fi nerd and keeps recommending his sci-fi books to his love interest Jocelyn. She refuses to read them at first because she looks down on them, stating she prefers things about "real people" - comparing them unfavorably to the works of Creator/JaneAusten that they're reading. [[spoiler: She decides to read them anyway, gets through them all in one night and is then found at a news stand trying to buy another]].

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* In-universe example in ''Literature/TheJaneAustenBookClub''. TheOneGuy is a sci-fi nerd and keeps recommending his sci-fi books to his love interest Jocelyn. She refuses to read them at first because she looks down on them, stating she prefers things about "real people" - -- comparing them unfavorably to the works of Creator/JaneAusten that they're reading. [[spoiler: She decides to read them anyway, gets through them all in one night and is then found at a news stand trying to buy another]].



* Inversion: The science-fiction trappings of ''Literature/IAmLegend'' often get exaggerated to the point of drowning its horror nature - two out of three [[TheFilmOfTheBook movie adaptations]] calling the monsters [[NotUsingTheZedWord mutants instead of vampires]], and some copies of the book list it as science fiction rather than horror.

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* Inversion: The science-fiction trappings of ''Literature/IAmLegend'' often get exaggerated to the point of drowning out its horror nature - -- two out of three [[TheFilmOfTheBook movie adaptations]] calling the monsters [[NotUsingTheZedWord mutants instead of vampires]], and some copies of the book list it as science fiction rather than horror.



** In the same essay he compared the behavior of Science-Fiction fans looking down on fantasy to the hare from La Fontaine's ''The Hare and the Frogs'' - having their favorite genre being picked on by the mainstream, they pick on fantasy just like the cowardly hare scares frogs.

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** In the same essay he compared the behavior of Science-Fiction fans looking down on fantasy to the hare from La Fontaine's ''The Hare and the Frogs'' - -- having their favorite genre being picked on by the mainstream, they pick on fantasy just like the cowardly hare scares frogs.



* Creator/StanislawLem, the greatest of the greats of Eastern European ScienceFiction, towards the end of his life displayed active hostility towards the genre, dismissing it as being about "talking dogs in flying saucers". While this might have been due to his general bitterness and disillusionment with the human race, earlier in his career he also preferred to label himself a "futurologist", and considered Creator/PhilipKDick the only author in science fiction worth his attention, a sentiment Dick didn't reciprocate[[note]]Not out of literary elitism. Dick was paranoid at this stage in life.[[/note]]. After the interview with the "talking dogs" phrase was published, some younger Polish authors expressed disappointment that their guru and source of inspiration endorsed the ghettoization of the genre. On the other hand, one of those younger authors, Rafal Ziemkiewicz, has on many occasions spoken against labelling science fiction - and popular literature as a whole - as "worse" than high literature, arguing that popular literature is the field where many popular literary conventions are born before being picked up and embraced by the mainstream.

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* Creator/StanislawLem, the greatest of the greats of Eastern European ScienceFiction, towards the end of his life displayed active hostility towards the genre, dismissing it as being about "talking dogs in flying saucers". While this might have been due to his general bitterness and disillusionment with the human race, earlier in his career he also preferred to label himself a "futurologist", and considered Creator/PhilipKDick the only author in science fiction worth his attention, a sentiment Dick didn't reciprocate[[note]]Not out of literary elitism. Dick was paranoid at this stage in life.[[/note]]. After the interview with the "talking dogs" phrase was published, some younger Polish authors expressed disappointment that their guru and source of inspiration endorsed the ghettoization of the genre. On the other hand, one of those younger authors, Rafal Ziemkiewicz, has on many occasions spoken against labelling science fiction - -- and popular literature as a whole - -- as "worse" than high literature, arguing that popular literature is the field where many popular literary conventions are born before being picked up and embraced by the mainstream.



* ''Literature/TheTimeTravelersWife'': both the book and the film are usually listed as a romance, even though [[ExactlyWhatItSaysOnTheTin the title sums up everything that makes it science fiction]] - it's about a woman who is married to a man who ''time travels''. Not only that but the way he time travels ''is'' given a scientific (if somewhat unusual) explanation without resorting to the supernatural, but best case scenario is for it to occasionally be labelled as fantasy.

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* ''Literature/TheTimeTravelersWife'': both Both the book and the film are usually listed as a romance, romances, even though [[ExactlyWhatItSaysOnTheTin the title sums up everything that makes it science fiction]] - -- it's about a woman who is married to a man who ''time travels''. Not only that but the way he time travels time-travels ''is'' given a scientific (if somewhat unusual) explanation without resorting to the supernatural, but best case best-case scenario is for it to occasionally be labelled as fantasy.



* Ancient, Medieval and even 19th century works that would be considered science fiction, fantasy or horror if written today are routinely and unquestioningly exempted from the disdainful judgments heaped on modern examples of the genres. Creator/{{Homer}}'s ''Literature/TheOdyssey'' includes fantastic voyages on magic ships, {{hot witch}}es, {{Enthralling Siren}}s, man-eating [[OurGiantsAreBigger giants]], [[OurGodsAreDifferent gods]], {{sea monster}}s and angry [[OurGhostsAreDifferent ghosts]]. ''Literature/{{Beowulf}}'' and ''Literature/LeMorteDarthur'' have heroes, magic swords, and monsters. ''Theatre/TheTempest'' and ''Theatre/{{Macbeth}}'' have wizards and witches, ''Theatre/{{Hamlet}}'' has a ghost, and ''Theatre/AMidsummerNightsDream'' has TheFairFolk, {{love potion}}s, and [[BalefulPolymorph a jester who gets transmogrified into a donkey-man]]. ''Literature/{{Frankenstein}}'' is about as science fiction as they come - hard sci-fi too, by the standards of its day. Meanwhile, the tragedies of Creator/{{Sophocles}} and Creator/{{Euripides}} resound with brutal, gory killings, uncomfortable psychological horror to put Creator/StephenKing to shame, and suffering at the hands of gods every bit as alien and unfathomable as those of Creator/HPLovecraft. And then there's ''Literature/GulliversTravels'', with [[IntellectualAnimal talking horses]], [[FrazettaMan primitive humanoids]], AgeWithoutYouth, a FloatingContinent, giants, and six-inch-tall {{Lilliputians}} that tie Gulliver down to a beach. It seems that if it was written before the genre was codified and named, then it can still be good and doesn't count. But once we knew what sci-fi, fantasy and horror were, then nothing fitting their description could be worthy without extreme special pleading.

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* Ancient, Medieval and even 19th century works that would be considered science fiction, fantasy or horror if written today are routinely and unquestioningly exempted from the disdainful judgments heaped on modern examples of the genres. Creator/{{Homer}}'s ''Literature/TheOdyssey'' includes fantastic voyages on magic ships, {{hot witch}}es, {{Enthralling Siren}}s, man-eating [[OurGiantsAreBigger giants]], [[OurGodsAreDifferent gods]], {{sea monster}}s and angry [[OurGhostsAreDifferent ghosts]]. ''Literature/{{Beowulf}}'' and ''Literature/LeMorteDarthur'' have heroes, magic swords, and monsters. ''Theatre/TheTempest'' and ''Theatre/{{Macbeth}}'' have wizards and witches, ''Theatre/{{Hamlet}}'' has a ghost, and ''Theatre/AMidsummerNightsDream'' has TheFairFolk, {{love potion}}s, and [[BalefulPolymorph a jester who gets transmogrified into a donkey-man]]. ''Literature/{{Frankenstein}}'' is about as science fiction as they come - -- hard sci-fi too, by the standards of its day. Meanwhile, the tragedies of Creator/{{Sophocles}} and Creator/{{Euripides}} resound with brutal, gory killings, uncomfortable psychological horror to put Creator/StephenKing to shame, and suffering at the hands of gods every bit as alien and unfathomable as those of Creator/HPLovecraft. And then there's ''Literature/GulliversTravels'', with [[IntellectualAnimal talking horses]], [[FrazettaMan primitive humanoids]], AgeWithoutYouth, a FloatingContinent, giants, and six-inch-tall {{Lilliputians}} that tie Gulliver down to a beach. It seems that if it was written before the genre was codified and named, then it can still be good and doesn't count. But once we knew what sci-fi, fantasy and horror were, then nothing fitting their description could be worthy without extreme special pleading.



* Helene Wecker admits that she fell into this trope herself before eventually defying it with her historical fantasy ''Literature/TheGolemAndTheJinni''. She originally started off writing a straightforward story of immigrants in early 20th century that was pretty bad. She had no idea what was wrong until a friend asked her why she was writing ''that'' way when she was a [[OneOfUs dyed-in-the-wool nerd who cut her teeth writing Doctor Who fanfiction]]. Wecker agreed and changed the story to be a fantasy about supernatural beings, and the book was much better for it.
* John Wyndham's ''Literature/{{The Chrysalids}}'' has a Penguin edition with an editor's note, to paraphrase - sadly this was released into the genre known as science fiction, which isn't the case here.

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* Helene Wecker admits that she fell into this trope herself before eventually defying it with her historical fantasy ''Literature/TheGolemAndTheJinni''. She originally started off writing a straightforward story of immigrants in the early 20th century that was pretty bad. She had no idea what was wrong until a friend asked her why she was writing ''that'' way when she was a [[OneOfUs dyed-in-the-wool nerd who cut her teeth writing Doctor Who fanfiction]]. Wecker agreed and changed the story to be a fantasy about supernatural beings, and the book was much better for it.
* John Wyndham's ''Literature/{{The Chrysalids}}'' has a Penguin edition with an editor's note, to paraphrase - -- sadly this was released into the genre known as science fiction, which isn't the case here.



** Part of its trouble is that it had picked up ''after'' ''Series/{{Battlestar Galactica|2003}}'''s finale and the large number of disgruntled fans ''that'' produced. ''Also'' a large portion of ''Battlestar'' 's fans ''would'' have watched it for the fantastical sci-fi premise - a fleet of rag-tag ships on the run from a genocidal race of robots with, yes, plenty of spaceships and explosions, as well as the political drama. A sci-fi SoapOpera, even one set in the same universe, has a very different premise and may as well be a totally separate show altogether.

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** Part of its trouble is that it had picked up ''after'' ''Series/{{Battlestar Galactica|2003}}'''s finale and the large number of disgruntled fans ''that'' produced. ''Also'' a large portion of ''Battlestar'' 's fans ''would'' have watched it for the fantastical sci-fi premise - -- a fleet of rag-tag ships on the run from a genocidal race of robots with, yes, plenty of spaceships and explosions, as well as the political drama. A sci-fi SoapOpera, even one set in the same universe, has a very different premise and may as well be a totally separate show altogether.



* Despite ''Series/DoctorWho'' being one of those properties about which it is practically impossible to somehow claim that it isn't science fiction (or science fantasy or what-have-you) - at least, not without completely losing all credibility - it didn't prevent the producers from giving it their best shot; notice how in the run-up to the relaunch of the show and subsequent marketing, the producers were and have been careful to stress that the show is now more about relationships (and romantic relationships especially) than it previously was, with the whole 'adventures in time and space' which was (and is, it just has relationships on top of it) primarily the central focus downplayed. Considering that the show prior to 2005 was regarded as a creaky, slightly irrelevant old relic and post-2005 is now a major media juggernaut seemingly beloved by all - most especially critics - something obviously worked.

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* Despite ''Series/DoctorWho'' being one of those properties about which it is practically impossible to somehow claim that it isn't science fiction (or science fantasy or what-have-you) - -- at least, not without completely losing all credibility - -- it didn't prevent the producers from giving it their best shot; notice how in the run-up to the relaunch of the show and subsequent marketing, the producers were and have been careful to stress that the show is now more about relationships (and romantic relationships especially) than it previously was, with the whole 'adventures in time and space' which was (and is, it just has relationships on top of it) primarily the central focus downplayed. Considering that the show prior to 2005 was regarded as a creaky, slightly irrelevant old relic and post-2005 is now a major media juggernaut seemingly beloved by all - -- most especially critics - -- something obviously worked.



** Whilst the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation funded the show, promoted the hell out of their involvement before the first episode, then exiled the drama to obscure timeslots and then stopped sending the BBC cheques.

to:

** Whilst Meanwhile, the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation funded the show, promoted the hell out of their involvement before the first episode, then exiled the drama to obscure timeslots and then stopped sending the BBC cheques.



* Some early reviews of ''Series/GameOfThrones'' place it squarely in the ghetto, comparing it with ''Literature/TheHobbit'' ([[SmallReferencePools naturally]]), even going so far as to claim NetworkDecay of HBO. SF / Fantasy blog io9 had a [[http://io9.com/5792574/really-why-would-men-ever-want-to-watch-game-of-thrones few things to say]] about that...

to:

* Some early reviews of ''Series/GameOfThrones'' place it squarely in the ghetto, comparing it with ''Literature/TheHobbit'' ([[SmallReferencePools naturally]]), even going so far as to claim NetworkDecay of HBO. SF / Fantasy SF[=/=]Fantasy blog io9 had a [[http://io9.com/5792574/really-why-would-men-ever-want-to-watch-game-of-thrones few things to say]] about that...



** Since its [[TimeTravel time-travel]] heavy Seasons 4 and 5, the creators have been more vocal about categorizing ''Series/{{Lost}}'' as sci-fi, [[http://www.nj.com/entertainment/tv/index.ssf/2009/01/lost_damon_lindelof_qa.html saying]]: "You can go, "Oh, it's not a genre show, because I don't like genre shows, but I like ''Lost.'' Therefore, ''Lost'' [[NoTrueScotsman is not a genre show]]." That's the logic they apply. Well, we've been writing a genre show from the word go. We're sorry that it's getting more genre." Note though that this hasn't always squared with what they've said before or with the show's marketing (where it's usually described as a straightforward drama).

to:

** Since After its [[TimeTravel time-travel]] heavy time-travel]]-heavy Seasons 4 and 5, the creators have been were more vocal about categorizing ''Series/{{Lost}}'' as sci-fi, [[http://www.nj.com/entertainment/tv/index.ssf/2009/01/lost_damon_lindelof_qa.html saying]]: "You can go, "Oh, it's not a genre show, because I don't like genre shows, but I like ''Lost.'' Therefore, ''Lost'' [[NoTrueScotsman is not a genre show]]." That's the logic they apply. Well, we've been writing a genre show from the word go. We're sorry that it's getting more genre." Note though that this hasn't didn't always squared square with what they've they'd said before or with the show's marketing (where it's it was usually described as a straightforward drama).



* ''Series/NorthernExposure'' is a fantasy. It has precognitive dreams, ghosts, aliens, a man who can fly under his own power, and a large number of single-episode supernatural events that aren't so easy to categorise. People tend to look at you funny if you actually point out that it was one of the most successful fantasy programs in network television history. Lacking elves and whatnot it gets pigeonholed as MagicRealism.

to:

* ''Series/NorthernExposure'' is a fantasy. It has precognitive dreams, ghosts, aliens, a man who can fly under his own power, and a large number of single-episode supernatural events that aren't so easy to categorise. People tend to look at you funny if you actually point out that it was one of the most successful fantasy programs in network television history. Lacking elves and whatnot whatnot, it gets pigeonholed as MagicRealism.



* ''Franchise/StarTrek'' gets this particularly bad, with its reputation for RubberForeheadAliens and the most obsessive of geek fans. Creator/PatrickStewart, for instance, one of the best actors working, has gotten several Emmy and Golden Globe nominations for his TV work... but only for "respectable" fare like ''Theatre/{{Hamlet}}'' and ''Film/MobyDick'', never for his seven years on ''[[Series/StarTrekTheNextGeneration The Next Generation]]''. Stewart himself defies the ghetto, stating that his years of [[ClassicallyTrainedExtra classical training]] were "practice" for the role of Captain Picard.

to:

* ''Franchise/StarTrek'' gets this particularly bad, badly, with its reputation for RubberForeheadAliens and the most obsessive of geek fans. Creator/PatrickStewart, for instance, one of the best actors working, has gotten several Emmy and Golden Globe nominations for his TV work... but only for "respectable" fare like ''Theatre/{{Hamlet}}'' and ''Film/MobyDick'', never for his seven years on ''[[Series/StarTrekTheNextGeneration The Next Generation]]''. Stewart himself defies the ghetto, stating that his years of [[ClassicallyTrainedExtra classical training]] were "practice" for the role of Captain Picard.



* ''Series/TerraNova'' - Creator Brannon Braga was reluctant to call his show science fiction, even though it involves future humans traveling back in time to the late Cretaceous period. For more see in [[http://dailytrojan.com/2011/01/20/tv-shows-reluctant-to-accept-sci-fi-title/ this article]].

to:

* ''Series/TerraNova'' - ''Series/TerraNova'': Creator Brannon Braga was reluctant to call his show science fiction, even though it involves future humans traveling back in time to the late Cretaceous period. For more see in [[http://dailytrojan.com/2011/01/20/tv-shows-reluctant-to-accept-sci-fi-title/ this article]].



** More than averted - after the original series ended, Creator/RodSerling made no bones about the fact that he had deliberately used the dismissive attitudes towards SF/F for the purposes of GettingCrapPastTheRadar. After the end of ''Television/Playhouse90'' due to ExecutiveMeddling regarding controversial subjects, he realized that he could make those same messages - and even stronger ones - by couching them in the 'exotic' forms of horror and science fiction.

to:

** More than averted - -- after the original series ended, Creator/RodSerling made no bones about the fact that he had deliberately used the dismissive attitudes towards SF/F for the purposes of GettingCrapPastTheRadar. After the end of ''Television/Playhouse90'' due to ExecutiveMeddling regarding controversial subjects, he realized that he could make relay those same messages - -- and even stronger ones - -- by couching them in the 'exotic' forms of horror and science fiction.



* Interviews with people from ''Series/TheFortyFourHundred'' and ''Series/{{Battlestar Galactica|2003}}'' insisted that their shows are "so much ''more'' than just a sci-fi show". Because apparently, science fiction doesn't involve relationships, politics, or takes on current issues.

to:

* Interviews with people from ''Series/TheFortyFourHundred'' and ''Series/{{Battlestar Galactica|2003}}'' insisted that their shows are "so much ''more'' than just a sci-fi show". Because apparently, science fiction doesn't involve relationships, politics, or takes take on current issues.



* Sci-fi comedies have their ''own'' ghetto-within-a-ghetto: despite the success of ''Series/TheHitchhikersGuideToTheGalaxy'' and ''Series/RedDwarf'', Creator/TheBBC remain very cagey about sci-fi comedy - taking years to commission a new one in ''Series/{{Hyperdrive}}''... which failed to draw in enough viewers, giving them an excuse to stop doing sci-fi comedies at all.

to:

* Sci-fi comedies have their ''own'' ghetto-within-a-ghetto: despite the success of ''Series/TheHitchhikersGuideToTheGalaxy'' and ''Series/RedDwarf'', Creator/TheBBC remain very cagey about sci-fi comedy - -- taking years to commission a new one in ''Series/{{Hyperdrive}}''... ''Series/{{Hyperdrive}}'', which then failed to draw in enough viewers, giving them an excuse to stop doing sci-fi comedies at all.



* ''Series/ThePrisoner'': Played straight in that star/producer Patrick [=McGoohan=] always denied the series was a science show, but is now averted with the series now popularly considered one of the greatest television series ever made as an profound science fiction parable, much like Creator/GeorgeOrwell's ''Literature/NineteenEightyFour''.

to:

* ''Series/ThePrisoner'': Played straight in that star/producer Patrick [=McGoohan=] always denied the series was a science science-fiction show, but is now averted with the series now popularly considered one of the greatest television series ever made as an and a profound science fiction science-fiction parable, much like Creator/GeorgeOrwell's ''Literature/NineteenEightyFour''.



* If you would like to see desperate literary snobbery coupled with hilarious pretentiousness, why not ask a professor of Shakespeare why the ghosts and witches in ''Theatre/MacBeth'' or the fairies and angels in ''Theatre/AMidsummerNightsDream'' don't qualify the plays as fantasy? ''A Midsummer Night's Dream'' is notable, because Puck gives a monologue at the end of the play 'apologising' to anyone who didn't like the subject matter - and there was minor outrage at the time for depicting fairies on the stage since they were fantasy creatures. People tried to 'justify' the depiction by saying it only depicted fantasy creatures that stemmed from popular belief. Your results may vary - there are some professors who ''do'' believe that ''Theatre/MacBeth'' and ''Theatre/AMidsummerNightsDream'' are in fact fantasy and do hold them up as an example as to how fantasy ''can'' be literature as well.

to:

* If you would like to see desperate literary snobbery coupled with hilarious pretentiousness, why not ask a professor of Shakespeare why the ghosts and witches in ''Theatre/MacBeth'' or the fairies and angels in ''Theatre/AMidsummerNightsDream'' don't qualify the plays as fantasy? ''A Midsummer Night's Dream'' is notable, because Puck gives a monologue at the end of the play 'apologising' to anyone who didn't like the subject matter - -- and there was minor outrage at the time for depicting fairies on the stage since they were fantasy creatures. People tried to 'justify' the depiction by saying it only depicted fantasy creatures that stemmed from popular belief. Your results may vary - -- there are some professors who ''do'' believe that ''Theatre/MacBeth'' and ''Theatre/AMidsummerNightsDream'' are in fact fantasy and do hold them up as an example as to how fantasy ''can'' be literature as well.



* In-universe in an episode of ''WesternAnimation/PepperAnn'' - where Lydia goes on a blind date and mistakes the movie they're seeing for a ChickFlick (when it's actually a horror movie). The date is portrayed as a sci-fi geek to make him unappealing.

to:

* In-universe in an episode of ''WesternAnimation/PepperAnn'' - -- where Lydia goes on a blind date and mistakes the movie they're seeing for a ChickFlick (when it's actually a horror movie). The date is portrayed as a sci-fi geek to make him unappealing.



** Genres themselves can be quite subjective - for example, ''Literature/HardBoiledWonderlandAndTheEndOfTheWorld'' is normally placed around "Literature", but it's a simultaneous Pastoral Fantasy and {{Cyberpunk}}.

to:

** Genres themselves can be quite subjective - -- for example, ''Literature/HardBoiledWonderlandAndTheEndOfTheWorld'' is normally placed around "Literature", but it's a simultaneous Pastoral Fantasy and {{Cyberpunk}}.



** The Canadian equivalent channel, "Space", has also undergone a re-branding of its own. While it kept the name, the channel will now focus on "down-to-earth" shows, with its new slogan being "It's all around you" (i.e. a reminder to the audience that "Space" doesn't need to mean ''outer'' space with silly space-ships and such). One of the channel's marketing people has said: "This idea that sci-fi is people in polyester onesies running around with taser guns, thatís not what the genre is about anymoreÖ Itís a lot more mainstream now."
* True art was not always angsty. Back in the 19th century fantasy was quite common in romanticism. It used to attract big crowds because they were useful as a tool of escapism to forget the horror that was happening in real life. With that in mind it should not be surprising that the ghetto back in the day targeted a genre known as "naturalism". The fact that they [[AccentuateTheNegative accentuated the negative]] of the society back in the day (as opposed to "realism", which showed both the good and the bad), that all of them had [[DownerEnding downer endings]], that they did not hide the fact that the society was full of misogyny, rape, murder etc. and that many of them were perhaps some of the most pretentious people around (Émile Zola, the codifier of naturalism, always said that he was in fact a scientist that examined human life) led them to have a big and extremely vocal hatedom. The very first Flemish naturalist novel to get some (as opposed to no) acclaim from critics was ''Het recht van de sterkste'' (which also employed a few fantasy elements) in 1893. By then the genre was around 30 years old. Nowadays, due to the belief that TrueArtIsAngsty the genre gets taught in French and Belgian literature classes, got acclaim and is also the genre of which the ghetto against it back in the day might get mentioned.
* A reliable indicator of critical special pleading for genre works is to claim that they "transcend the genre" - which usually means instead that the critic in question has transcended their snobbery.

to:

** The Canadian equivalent channel, "Space", has also undergone a re-branding of its own. While it kept the name, the channel will now focus on "down-to-earth" shows, with its new slogan being "It's all around you" (i.e. a reminder to the audience that "Space" doesn't need to mean ''outer'' space with silly space-ships and such). One of the channel's marketing people has said: "This idea that sci-fi is people in polyester onesies running around with taser guns, thatís not what the genre is about anymoreÖ Itís anymore... It's a lot more mainstream now."
* True art was not always angsty. Back in the 19th century century, fantasy was quite common in romanticism. It used to attract big crowds because they were useful as a tool of escapism to forget the horror that was happening in real life. With that in mind it should not be surprising that the ghetto back in the day targeted a genre known as "naturalism". The fact that they [[AccentuateTheNegative accentuated the negative]] of the society back in the day (as opposed to "realism", which showed both the good and the bad), that all of them had [[DownerEnding downer endings]], that they did not hide the fact that the society was full of misogyny, rape, murder etc. and that many of them were perhaps some of the most pretentious people around (Émile Zola, the codifier of naturalism, always said that he was in fact a scientist that examined human life) led them to have a big and extremely vocal hatedom. The very first Flemish naturalist novel to get some (as opposed to no) acclaim from critics was ''Het recht van de sterkste'' (which also employed a few fantasy elements) in 1893. By then the genre was around 30 years old. Nowadays, due to the belief that TrueArtIsAngsty the genre gets taught in French and Belgian literature classes, got acclaim and is also the genre of which the ghetto against it back in the day might get mentioned.
* A reliable indicator of critical special pleading for genre works is to claim that they "transcend the genre" - -- which usually means instead that the critic in question has transcended their snobbery.
10th Jun '18 7:13:41 AM nombretomado
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** Somewhat fuelling the FandomRivalry between fans of the [[ComicBook/GreenArrow comic source]] and its [[Series/{{Arrow}} adaptation]], there's a tendency for fans of the latter to posit that the DarkerAndEdgier treatment given to Green Arrow in the Franchise/{{Arrowverse}} is an [[TrueArtIsAngsty improvement on the character]]. Normally, he's a wisecracking loudmouth with a wide sense of humour, while the show turns him into a brooding [[TheStoic stoic]] [[TheCowl expy of Batman]], to fit its initially darker setting. What's overlooked is that the comic itself ''has'' often gotten dark, with Green Arrow himself having abandoned his ThouShallNotKill philosophy on multiple occasions, but generally Oliver's cavalier attitude serves to contrast the dark setting he deals with. As a result, it comes off less that there's any real fundamental improvement happening, but just snobbery and the belief that being dark and realistic by nature makes for a better story.

to:

** Somewhat fuelling the FandomRivalry between fans of the [[ComicBook/GreenArrow comic source]] and its [[Series/{{Arrow}} adaptation]], there's a tendency for fans of the latter to posit that the DarkerAndEdgier treatment given to Green Arrow in the Franchise/{{Arrowverse}} Series/{{Arrowverse}} is an [[TrueArtIsAngsty improvement on the character]]. Normally, he's a wisecracking loudmouth with a wide sense of humour, while the show turns him into a brooding [[TheStoic stoic]] [[TheCowl expy of Batman]], to fit its initially darker setting. What's overlooked is that the comic itself ''has'' often gotten dark, with Green Arrow himself having abandoned his ThouShallNotKill philosophy on multiple occasions, but generally Oliver's cavalier attitude serves to contrast the dark setting he deals with. As a result, it comes off less that there's any real fundamental improvement happening, but just snobbery and the belief that being dark and realistic by nature makes for a better story.
6th Jun '18 6:50:59 PM costanton11
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* Though sometimes falling into the AnimationAgeGhetto, the DisneyAnimatedCanon is actually something of an aversion of this one, at least where fantasy rather than sci-fi is concerned. At the time ''Disney/SnowWhiteAndTheSevenDwarves'' was made, animation was very much a sideshow; you put funny short cartoons in the theater before live-action films. Nobody thought you ''could'' make a full-length animated movie, let alone one that turned out as beautiful and popular as Snow White did. It may have been a DancingBear, but in this case, the bear actually danced ''well'', and sparked a complete change in how people thought of storytelling with animation. Disney stuck to family-friendly fairy tales, but [[DorkAge with few exceptions]] won critical and audience acclaim for them. (Although this trope did come in later, when two sci-fi works, ''Disney/TreasurePlanet'' and ''Disney/AtlantisTheLostEmpire'', were flops.)

to:

* Though sometimes falling into the AnimationAgeGhetto, the DisneyAnimatedCanon Franchise/DisneyAnimatedCanon is actually something of an aversion of this one, at least where fantasy rather than sci-fi is concerned. At the time ''Disney/SnowWhiteAndTheSevenDwarves'' was made, animation was very much a sideshow; you put funny short cartoons in the theater before live-action films. Nobody thought you ''could'' make a full-length animated movie, let alone one that turned out as beautiful and popular as Snow White did. It may have been a DancingBear, but in this case, the bear actually danced ''well'', and sparked a complete change in how people thought of storytelling with animation. Disney stuck to family-friendly fairy tales, but [[DorkAge with few exceptions]] won critical and audience acclaim for them. (Although this trope did come in later, when two sci-fi works, ''Disney/TreasurePlanet'' and ''Disney/AtlantisTheLostEmpire'', were flops.)
25th May '18 4:40:16 PM ablackraptor
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** ''ComicBook/{{Watchmen}}'' won a UsefulNotes/HugoAward and was declared one of the 100 best English-language novels by ''Time''. When people read it, they are often stunned by its depth... ''when'' they read it. When they don't, they say, "Oh, if it's so good, why isn't it [[QualityByPopularVote as popular as Batman and Superman]] comics?"
*** Which, of course, ignores the fact that ''Watchmen'' is one of the best selling comic books of all time.
*** ... suggesting that the answer is "because it's only one volume."

to:

** ''ComicBook/{{Watchmen}}'' won a UsefulNotes/HugoAward and was declared one of the 100 best English-language novels by ''Time''. When people read it, they are often stunned by its depth... ''when'' they read it. When they don't, they say, "Oh, if it's so good, why isn't it [[QualityByPopularVote as popular as Batman and Superman]] comics?"
***
comics?" Which, of course, [[CriticalResearchFailyre ignores the fact that ''Watchmen'' is one of the best selling comic books of all time.
*** ...
time]], suggesting that the answer is "because it's only one volume."


Added DiffLines:

* In a general sense, there's a tendency when complimenting a Live Action adaptation of a comic property to credit the adaptation for 'fixing' a particularly odd element or character. This often goes hand-in-hand with TrueArtIsAngsty or ComedyGhetto, as often the characters being touted as 'fixed' were never broken, but were just not as DarkerAndEdgier or wearing [[MovieSuperheroesWearBlack such dark outfits]].
** A common sentiment even among comic fans concerned the character Batroc the Leaper when he was adapted into the MCU with ''Film/CaptainAmericaTheWinterSoldier''. There were a lot of people praising how 'somehow they made Batroc cool', when Batroc had often beforehand been one of Captain America's most reliably capable enemies and an EnsembleDarkhorse due to being a BadassNormal NobleDemon who just so happened to be a crazy looking frenchman. There's possibly some unintentional nationalism in place as people seemed to assume he was a CheeseEatingSurrenderMonkeys cliché simply for being French.
** A number of articles ran during the premier of ''Series/JessicaJones2015'' Season 2 due to them featuring the Whizzer, a Golden Age superhero who served as an AlternativeCompanyEquivelent of The Flash, positing that the show 'fixed' the character. In the show, he's depicted as an overweight awkward nerd who's brutally murdered by the BigBad of the season, who's attempts to seek Jessica's help initially are dismissed because she refused to take him seriously. ''How'', exactly this is considered 'fixing' him is unclear.
** Somewhat fuelling the FandomRivalry between fans of the [[ComicBook/GreenArrow comic source]] and its [[Series/{{Arrow}} adaptation]], there's a tendency for fans of the latter to posit that the DarkerAndEdgier treatment given to Green Arrow in the Franchise/{{Arrowverse}} is an [[TrueArtIsAngsty improvement on the character]]. Normally, he's a wisecracking loudmouth with a wide sense of humour, while the show turns him into a brooding [[TheStoic stoic]] [[TheCowl expy of Batman]], to fit its initially darker setting. What's overlooked is that the comic itself ''has'' often gotten dark, with Green Arrow himself having abandoned his ThouShallNotKill philosophy on multiple occasions, but generally Oliver's cavalier attitude serves to contrast the dark setting he deals with. As a result, it comes off less that there's any real fundamental improvement happening, but just snobbery and the belief that being dark and realistic by nature makes for a better story.
24th May '18 12:11:10 PM Reymma
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* Complaints about [[Film/IndianaJonesAndTheKingdomOfTheCrystalSkull the fourth]] ''Franchise/IndianaJones'' film often revolve around people being unable to accept aliens in Indy, despite them not being any less plausible than the radioactive [[Film/RaidersOfTheLostArk Ark of the Covenant]], [[Film/IndianaJonesAndTheTempleOfDoom Indian dark magic]] or the ''frigging [[Film/IndianaJonesAndTheLastCrusade Holy Grail]]'' in the previous films. This is because religion-induced magic and SF-induced magic are worlds apart by fandom and by shelving. It could also be about the ''inconsistency''. For many people, the presence of the Ark of the Covenant and the Holy Grail are definitive proof that the Abrahamic God actually exists in Indy's universe. It is therefore presumed that interdimensional aliens would not be ''allowed'' to turn up and start teaching primitive humans advanced knowledge, less still to induce said primitives to ''worship'' them. (NoSuchThingAsSpaceJesus.) Of course, you could equally argue that a) advanced aliens are a means to an end for God, or b) the Ark and the Grail are in fact [[AncientAstronauts technological artifacts crafted by said aliens]], not divine artifacts.
** Indeed, Frank Darabont's original script for ''[[Film/IndianaJonesAndTheKingdomOfTheCrystalSkull Crystal Skull]]'' alluded to the idea that aliens were responsible for human religions.
** Also consider that the [[Film/IndianaJonesAndTheTempleOfDoom second movie]] validates Hinduism. So it's really more of a FantasyKitchenSink.
** There's also the fact that in real life, ''many'' people have pretended to be gods (many cult leaders, for example, but also many ancient rulers) or honestly believed themselves to be descended from gods (for example, UsefulNotes/AlexanderTheGreat believed he was descended from Hercules and Zeus, while the Japanese royal family believe themselves to be the descendants of Amaterasu). God hasn't directly intervened to put a stop to that, so why would He be any more likely to step in and prevent aliens from claiming they're gods?

to:

* Complaints about [[Film/IndianaJonesAndTheKingdomOfTheCrystalSkull the fourth]] ''Franchise/IndianaJones'' film often revolve around people being unable to accept aliens in Indy, despite them not being any less plausible than the radioactive [[Film/RaidersOfTheLostArk Ark of the Covenant]], [[Film/IndianaJonesAndTheTempleOfDoom Indian dark magic]] or the ''frigging [[Film/IndianaJonesAndTheLastCrusade Holy Grail]]'' in the previous films. This is because religion-induced magic and SF-induced alien-justified magic are worlds apart by fandom and by shelving. It could also be about the ''inconsistency''. For many people, the presence of the The Ark of the Covenant and the Holy Grail are definitive proof having real power suggested that the Abrahamic God actually exists in Indy's universe. It is therefore presumed that interdimensional aliens would not be ''allowed'' to turn up come to Earth and start teaching make primitive humans advanced knowledge, less still to induce said primitives to ''worship'' worship them. (NoSuchThingAsSpaceJesus.) Of course, you But what about the Hinduism in the second film? You could equally also argue that a) advanced aliens are a means to an end for God, or b) the Ark and the Grail are in fact [[AncientAstronauts technological artifacts crafted by said aliens]], not divine artifacts.
**
artifacts. Indeed, Frank Darabont's original script for ''[[Film/IndianaJonesAndTheKingdomOfTheCrystalSkull Crystal Skull]]'' alluded to the idea that aliens were responsible for human religions.
** Also consider that the [[Film/IndianaJonesAndTheTempleOfDoom second movie]] validates Hinduism. So it's really more of a FantasyKitchenSink.
** There's also the fact that in real life, ''many'' people have pretended to be gods (many cult leaders, for example, but also many ancient rulers) or honestly believed themselves to be descended from gods (for example, UsefulNotes/AlexanderTheGreat believed he was descended from Hercules and Zeus, while the Japanese royal family believe themselves to be the descendants of Amaterasu). God hasn't directly intervened to put a stop to that, so why would He be any more likely to step in and prevent aliens from claiming they're gods?
religions.
13th Apr '18 8:15:12 PM crazysamaritan
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* Creator/TerryPratchett, however, ''was'' a fantasy writer and ''also'' had stuff to say. He's quoted as saying, however, that he didn't like the term "MagicRealism", because it basically means "a polite way of saying you write fantasy and is more acceptable to certain people." He also commented that ''all'' of his books are considered fantasy and nothing else, regardless of the other genres he dabbles in.
** He also said that people from his publishers told him that they went into bookshops and asked why his hugely successful books weren't being displayed in more prominent places. The answers amounted to "We don't like the fantasy to get out." [[note]]This is an author who's been compared to Creator/GeoffreyChaucer, Creator/CharlesDickens and Creator/MarkTwain by serious critics.[[/note]]
* This quote from the [[http://www.nytimes.com/2009/04/21/books/21ballard.html?_r=1=1&sq=JG%20Ballard&st=cse New York Times obituary of J.G. Ballard]]: "His fabulistic style led people to review his work as science fiction... But that's like calling 'Literature/BraveNewWorld' science fiction, or '[[Literature/NineteenEightyFour 1984]]'."
* Works by known science fiction authors tend to be classified as science fiction even when they're not. Creator/IsaacAsimov was particularly subject to that, given the breadth of his writing - Asimov wrote copious amounts of ''non''-fiction, which you would think would be exempt from this problem by its very nature. ''An Easy Introduction to the Slide Rule'' was in a local bookstore's science fiction section.
** Likewise, Creator/AndreNorton has written historical novels, spy stories, and Gothic romances. Guess where you'll find them ('''if''' you find them) in a bookstore or library (granted, at least two of the romances have fantasy elements).
** Inverted by a local public library, which had Creator/{{Harry Turtledove}}'s ''Guns of the South'' (a novel about time travellers changing the outcome of the US Civil War) classed as "Historical Fiction". The cover shows Robert E. Lee holding an AK-47.

to:

* Creator/TerryPratchett, however, ''was'' Creator/TerryPratchett:
** As
a fantasy writer and ''also'' writer, Pratchett had stuff to say. several opinions on the ghetto. He's quoted as saying, however, saying that he didn't doesn't like the term "MagicRealism", because it basically means "a polite way of saying you write fantasy and is more acceptable to certain people." He also commented that ''all'' of his books are considered fantasy and nothing else, regardless of the other genres he dabbles in.
** He also said Pratchett has shared that people from his publishers told him that they went into bookshops and asked why his hugely successful books weren't being displayed in more prominent places. The answers amounted to "We don't like the fantasy to get out." [[note]]This is an author who's been compared to Creator/GeoffreyChaucer, Creator/CharlesDickens and Creator/MarkTwain by serious critics.[[/note]]
* This A quote from the [[http://www.nytimes.com/2009/04/21/books/21ballard.html?_r=1=1&sq=JG%20Ballard&st=cse New York Times obituary of J.G. Ballard]]: "His fabulistic style led people to review his work as science fiction... But that's like calling 'Literature/BraveNewWorld' ''Literature/BraveNewWorld'' science fiction, or '[[Literature/NineteenEightyFour 1984]]'.''[[Literature/NineteenEightyFour 1984]]''."
* Works by Creator/IsaacAsimov:
** Given the breadth of his writing, Dr Asimov frequently encountered a problem where, because he's a
known science fiction authors tend to ScienceFiction author, his works would be classified shelved as science fiction even when they're not. Creator/IsaacAsimov was particularly subject to that, given the breadth of his writing - Dr Asimov wrote copious amounts of ''non''-fiction, which you would think would be exempt from this problem by its very nature. ''An Easy Introduction to the Slide Rule'' was in a local bookstore's science fiction section.
** Likewise, In the introduction to ''Literature/TalesOfTheBlackWidowers'', Dr Asimov talks about readers who write him questions about why a ScienceFiction writer thinks he can write about {{Creator/Shakespeare}}, why a chemist thinks he can write about history, why a {{Creator/Shakespeare}} scholar would bother with ScienceFiction, why a historian would bother writing chemistry essays, and so on, ad nauseum it would seem.
*
Creator/AndreNorton has written historical novels, spy stories, and Gothic romances. Guess where you'll find them ('''if''' you find them) in a bookstore or library (granted, at least two of the romances have fantasy elements).
** * Inverted by a local public library, which had Creator/{{Harry Turtledove}}'s ''Guns of the South'' (a novel about time travellers changing the outcome of the US Civil War) classed as "Historical Fiction". The cover shows Robert E. Lee holding an AK-47.
7th Apr '18 9:05:12 AM TheRedRedKroovy
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** [[https://medium.com/cinenation-show/this-is-why-we-can-t-have-nice-things-the-witch-and-horror-fandom-s-gatekeepers-b2c0bb0d8f9a#.nrrwf3bw4 This article]] by Jason Coffman draws much the same conclusion. He argues that, by narrowing the definition of "horror" strictly to violent, in-your-face grindhouse fare, they're essentially denying that it can be art, dismissing the vast artistic potential within the genre, and feeding the stereotypes that others have of horror films and their fans.

to:

** * [[https://medium.com/cinenation-show/this-is-why-we-can-t-have-nice-things-the-witch-and-horror-fandom-s-gatekeepers-b2c0bb0d8f9a#.nrrwf3bw4 This article]] by Jason Coffman draws much the same conclusion. He argues that, by narrowing the definition of "horror" strictly to violent, in-your-face grindhouse fare, they're essentially denying that it can be art, dismissing the vast artistic potential within the genre, and feeding the stereotypes that others have of horror films and their fans.




to:

* [[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oal2RzlQWFA This video]] by Ryan Hollinger discussed the idea of "post-horror", a term [[https://www.theguardian.com/film/2017/jul/06/post-horror-films-scary-movies-ghost-story-it-comes-at-night coined]] by Steve Rose of ''The Guardian'' to describe 2010s horror films like ''Film/ItComesAtNight'', ''Film/AGhostStory'', and several of the aforementioned that "[replace] [[JumpScare jump-scares]] with [[NothingIsScarier existential dread]]". Hollinger thinks that the term is rooted in the Ghetto and an attempt to rationalize one's enjoyment of certain films, saying that, while these films may be using horror tropes and iconography to explore heavier themes, at the end of the day they're still fundamentally horror films at heart, even if they don't adhere to the stereotypes of modern horror. He argues that, if one takes the argument to its logical conclusion, then ''Film/TheExorcist'', often held to be one of the scariest films ever made, could be considered "post-horror", as it uses its story primarily to explore Father Karras' crisis of faith while mining little of its horror from jump scares.
26th Mar '18 12:19:31 PM Gravidef
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* [[Creator/AgathaChristie Dame Agatha Christie]] won the title of "The Queen of Crime," but she's also in the running for the Queen of Underappreciated Authors. Here is a short list of her many, ''many'' achievements. She published 66 mystery novels and 14 crime short story collections in her lifetime; the Guinness Book of World Records lists her as the best-selling novelist ''ever'' (it's joked that the only people that outsell her are "God and Shakespeare," as the Bible and the Bard's collected works are the only books above hers on the top-selling list); she wrote ''Theatre/TheMousetrap'', which is the longest continually-running play in the history of the world; she was the first recipient of the Mystery Writers of America's "Grand Master" Award, their highest honor (and she's not even American!); her novel ''The Murder of Roger Ackroyd'' was voted the best mystery novel of all time by 600 fellow crime writers in 2016; she holds the record for most-translated novelist in history, with her books written in at least 103 languages--to put this one into perspective, the second-most translated author is Jules Verne, and her total number of translations outdo his by over 2,500; and she's one of only eight authors (and one of only two women, the other being Creator/JKRowling) in the world to have an individual book (in her case, ''Literature/AndThenThereWereNone'') to sell over 100 million copies. Christie also invented and codified countless mystery and, in some cases, overall fiction tropes, including the TwistEnding, EverybodyDidIt, FakingTheDead, LittleOldLadyInvestigates, NeverFoundTheBody, and UnreliableNarrator; no less than Isaac Asimov once commented that it was impossible for a crime author to come up with an "original" solution to a mystery, because Christie ''had already done them all.'' She also [[ShownTheirWork took the time to make her books accurate]], using her real-life time as a physician's assistant to research and memorize poisons for her villains to use. In addition to all of this, Christie was among the first writers to explore the psychology of criminals and explain their motives rather than simply treating them as scheming villains; she was also among the first authors to create a "universe" in her books, as both Poirot and Miss Marple, her other famed detective, age over the course of her novels, with recurring characters falling in love/getting married and children growing from babies to adults. And if this wasn't enough, she was ALSO one of the first novelists to use the AuthorAvatar trope in the form of Ariadne Oliver, a popular crime novelist who's created a Finnish detective (to match Christie's Belgian sleuth Hercule Poirot); Christie was even willing to [[SelfDeprecation poke fun at herself]] for mistakes in her previous books, complain about her fictional detective being a headache, demystify the writing process, and even [[TakeThatAudience take potshots at her fans]] for being overly obsessed with minutia through Oliver. But despite this ''massive'' list of incredible accomplishments that would make any author swoon, her books are shuttled to the mystery section of most libraries and bookstores, often squeezed between every other author on the shelf (they ''are'' mysteries, true, but you'd think they'd get more prominence), and her name rarely comes up in discussions of the greatest authors ever. Sigh...

to:

* [[Creator/AgathaChristie Dame Agatha Christie]] won the title of "The Queen of Crime," but she's also in the running for the Queen of Underappreciated Authors. Here is a short list of her many, ''many'' achievements. She published 66 mystery novels and 14 crime short story collections in her lifetime; the Guinness Book of World Records lists her as the best-selling novelist ''ever'' (it's joked that the only people that outsell her are "God and Shakespeare," as the Bible and the Bard's collected works are the only books above hers on the top-selling list); she wrote ''Theatre/TheMousetrap'', which is the longest continually-running play in the history of the world; she was the first recipient of the Mystery Writers of America's "Grand Master" Award, their highest honor (and she's not even American!); her novel ''The Murder of Roger Ackroyd'' was voted the best mystery novel of all time by 600 fellow crime writers in 2016; she holds the record for most-translated novelist in history, with her books written in at least 103 languages--to put this one into perspective, the second-most translated author is Jules Verne, and her total number of translations outdo his by over 2,500; and she's one of only eight authors (and one of only two women, the other being Creator/JKRowling) in the world to have an individual book (in her case, ''Literature/AndThenThereWereNone'') to sell over 100 million copies. Christie also invented and codified countless mystery and, in some cases, overall fiction tropes, including the TwistEnding, EverybodyDidIt, FakingTheDead, LittleOldLadyInvestigates, NeverFoundTheBody, and UnreliableNarrator; no less than Isaac Asimov once commented that it was impossible for a crime author to come up with an "original" solution to a mystery, because Christie ''had already done them all.'' She also [[ShownTheirWork took the time to make her books accurate]], using her real-life time as a physician's assistant to research and memorize poisons for her villains to use. In addition to all of this, Christie was among the first writers to explore the psychology of criminals and explain their motives rather than simply treating them as scheming villains; she was also among the first authors to create a "universe" in her books, as both Poirot and Miss Marple, her other famed detective, age over the course of her novels, with recurring characters falling in love/getting married and children growing from babies to adults. And if this wasn't enough, she was ALSO one of the first novelists to use the AuthorAvatar trope in the form of Ariadne Oliver, a popular crime novelist who's created a Finnish detective (to match Christie's Belgian sleuth Hercule Poirot); Christie was even willing to [[SelfDeprecation poke fun at herself]] for mistakes in her previous books, complain about her fictional detective being a headache, demystify the writing process, and even [[TakeThatAudience take potshots at her fans]] for being overly obsessed with minutia through Oliver. But despite this ''massive'' list of incredible accomplishments that would make any author swoon, her books are shuttled to the mystery section of most libraries and bookstores, often squeezed between every other author on the shelf (they ''are'' mysteries, true, but you'd think they'd get more prominence), and her name rarely comes up in discussions of the greatest authors ever. Sigh...
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