History Main / RedemptionDemotion

30th Dec '17 8:51:44 AM Wyldchyld
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* In ''VideoGame/FinalFantasyVIII'', Edea the Evil Uber-Hot Gothy Witch Queen FetishFuel chick is the BigBad of the first act -- and turns into a rather weak playable character thereafter (additionally no longer ruling the world). The reason she becomes good in the first place is that she loses all her sorceress powers which made her powerful (and brainwashed) to Rinoa, thus making her a normal human being. When Squall tries to physically stop the brainwashed Rinoa from leaving the lunar base, he gets launched into the nearest wall. However, when you get Rinoa back, she isn't one bit more powerful than before (except for having a new LimitBreak).

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* In ''VideoGame/FinalFantasyVIII'', Edea the Evil Uber-Hot Gothy Witch Queen FetishFuel chick is the BigBad of the first act -- and turns into a rather weak playable character thereafter (additionally no longer ruling the world). The reason she becomes good in the first place is that she loses all her sorceress powers which made her powerful (and brainwashed) to Rinoa, thus making her a normal human being. When Squall tries to physically stop the brainwashed Rinoa from leaving the lunar base, he gets launched into the nearest wall. However, when you get Rinoa back, she isn't one bit more powerful than before (except for having a new LimitBreak).
28th Dec '17 12:57:55 AM MBG159
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28th Dec '17 12:57:53 AM MBG159
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28th Dec '17 12:57:48 AM MBG159
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28th Dec '17 12:57:43 AM MBG159
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* In a story where the heroes are growing in strength, skill, or resources, the villain may have been formidable once, but now they're SoLastSeason and CantCatchUp. They haven't gotten any weaker; they only seem weaker because they no doubt surpassed the heroes for most of their villainous tenure, and that's no longer the case (especially since such storylines tend to [[DefeatMeansFriendship have the villain be surpassed before they switch sides]]).



An alternative, especially in series where the main characters are constantly getting stronger, is that the former villain only ''seems'' weaker, because the good guys have [[SoLastSeason caught up to him in strength]] and he along with his new allies are facing stronger opponents. So basically, VillainForgotToLevelGrind would be in play. This example shows up in alot of shonen anime.



** Vegeta in ''Anime/DragonballZ'' had destroyed dozens of planets, but when he turned good, he was left permanent second-banana to Goku. At one point, he willingly becomes a minion of the current BigBad, pointing out that as a hero, he could only ever be second-rate, but he was a ''damned good'' villain. That Vegeta is a better villain than hero is further highlighted by the fact that shortly after this he makes a ''second'' HeelFaceTurn, in which he attempts to save the world via a HeroicSacrifice. And fails. While he never really loses any power per se he simply CantCatchUp to Goku's increasing power.

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** Vegeta in ''Anime/DragonballZ'' had destroyed dozens of planets, but when he turned good, he was left permanent second-banana to Goku. At one point, he willingly becomes a minion of the current BigBad, pointing out that as a hero, he could only ever be second-rate, but he was a ''damned good'' villain. That Vegeta is a better villain than hero is further highlighted by the fact that shortly after this he makes a ''second'' HeelFaceTurn, in which he attempts to save the world via a HeroicSacrifice. And fails. While he never really loses any power per se se, he simply CantCatchUp to Goku's increasing power.
27th Dec '17 5:35:15 PM MBG159
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* Lampshaded in ''VideoGame/CthulhuSavesTheWorld'', where [[TalkingSword Sharpe]]'s in-combat description is "Has a much higher max HP now than he will in a couple minutes." Also inverted, as he initially sees Cthulhu as the villain ([[EldritchAbomination With good reason]]).

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* Lampshaded in ''VideoGame/CthulhuSavesTheWorld'', where [[TalkingSword Sharpe]]'s in-combat description is "Has a much higher max HP now than he will in a couple minutes." (HealthDamageAsymmmetry is the culprit, in this case.) Also inverted, as he initially sees Cthulhu as the villain ([[EldritchAbomination With good reason]]).
14th Dec '17 12:38:11 PM yusiko
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** In the original ''Anime/DigimonAdventure'', Gatomon/Tailmon was capable of taking out the entire group of the Digidestined Champion-level Digimon, but when she joins the group, she has to Digivolve to Angewomon to take part in the battles. This is even worse in Digimon Adventure 02, where Gatomon loses her Tail Ring and is effectively reduced to the level of a Rookie for most of the series. She has to use a [=DigiEgg=] to have access to Champion-level power.
28th Nov '17 8:26:32 PM merotoker
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# It lets you add more [[GreyingMorality shades of morality]] to the story while introducing a [[DarkerAndEdgier "darker, edgier"]] [[AntiHero hero]].

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# It lets you add more [[GreyingMorality [[GrayingMorality shades of morality]] to the story while introducing a [[DarkerAndEdgier "darker, edgier"]] [[AntiHero hero]].



* If they were using BlackMagic or some other [[BadPowersBadPeople inherently evil]] power and has now decided to leave it behind, this also obviously deprives them of their former power. (Unless, of course, the situation crosses the GodzillaThreshold.)

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* If they were using BlackMagic or some other [[BadPowersBadPeople inherently evil]] power and has have now decided to leave it behind, this also obviously deprives them of their former power. (Unless, of course, the situation crosses the GodzillaThreshold.)



** Panther Lily went from being [[BadassNormal strong enough to fight Gajeel in a one-on-one despite lacking any real offensive Magic aside from flight and his BFS]] as a villain during the Edolas arc to being far less effective in combat after it. This is {{justified}} however in that he lost the ability to maintain his [[OneWingedAngel Battle form]] constantly like in Edolas and can only maintain for a limited time before he returns to his [[SleepModeSize true tiny form]]. On the occasions he can cut loose before he runs out of time, he's still just as dangerous. His {{BFS}} was destroyed during said arc as well and it took him awhile to find [[MorphWeapon a new one that could change size with him]].

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** Panther Lily went from being [[BadassNormal strong enough to fight Gajeel in a one-on-one despite lacking any real offensive Magic aside from flight and his BFS]] as a villain during the Edolas arc to being far less effective in combat after it. This is {{justified}} {{justified|Trope}} however in that he lost the ability to maintain his [[OneWingedAngel Battle form]] constantly like in Edolas and can only maintain for a limited time before he returns to his [[SleepModeSize true tiny form]]. On the occasions he can cut loose before he runs out of time, he's still just as dangerous. His {{BFS}} was destroyed during said arc as well and it took him awhile to find [[MorphWeapon a new one that could change size with him]].



** In her first appearance, a villainous ComicBook/{{Rogue}} took on the entire Avengers by herself and was a major force in her early encounters with the X-Men. Then she joins the X-Men and is thereafter [[TheWorfEffect beaten up by all subsequent villains to show how tough they are]] (okay, slight exaggeration). Justified (a bit) by her being less willing to use her [[BadPowersBadPeople increasingly dangerous absorption powers]].

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** In her first appearance, a villainous ComicBook/{{Rogue}} took on the entire Avengers all by herself and was a major force in her early encounters with the X-Men. Then she joins the X-Men and is thereafter [[TheWorfEffect beaten up by all subsequent villains to show how tough they are]] (okay, slight exaggeration). Justified (a bit) by her being less willing to use her [[BadPowersBadPeople increasingly dangerous absorption powers]].



* In ''Film/AvengersAgeOfUltron'', Wanda Maximoff (aka Scarlet Witch) is able to take down every member of the Avengers (except Hawkeye), by using her telepathic abilities to induce fear and visions of longing or forboding. Once she joins the team and is fighting alongside [[spoiler: Team Cap]] in ''Film/CaptainAmericaCivilWar'', she never once uses this power, neither against the villains nor the other half of the Avengers. She instead restrains herself to merely using telekinesis to throw whatever objects are laying around, and to contain an explosion.
** Possibly justified since it was using these capabilities that kicked off the conflict in Age of Ultron in the first place. Hell, she's downright ''horrified'' when she realizes that the whole affair was indirectly her fault since it caused cracks on the team, and of course [[spoiler: leading Tony to create Ultron out of fear and paranoia.]] Using it on the heroes would not only be highly immoral, but it's likely it would not be approved by anyone, especially the Cap. As for villains, look back to Age Of Ultron. If doing her mind work on some heroes led to them making highly questionable choices out of good intent, what affect would it have on villanious individuals?

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* In ''Film/AvengersAgeOfUltron'', Wanda Maximoff (aka Scarlet Witch) is able to take down every member of the Avengers (except Hawkeye), by using her telepathic abilities to induce fear and visions of longing or forboding.foreboding. Once she joins the team and is fighting alongside [[spoiler: Team Cap]] in ''Film/CaptainAmericaCivilWar'', she never once uses this power, neither against the villains nor the other half of the Avengers. She instead restrains herself to merely using telekinesis to throw whatever objects are laying around, and to contain an explosion. \n** Possibly justified since it was using these capabilities that kicked off the conflict in Age of Ultron in the first place. Hell, she's downright ''horrified'' when she realizes that the whole affair was indirectly her fault since it caused cracks on the team, and of course [[spoiler: leading Tony to create Ultron out of fear and paranoia.]] Using it on the heroes would not only be highly immoral, but it's likely it would not be approved by anyone, especially the Cap. As for villains, look back to Age Of Ultron. ''Age of Ultron''. If doing her mind work on some heroes led to them making highly questionable choices out of good intent, what affect would it have on villanious villainous individuals?



* This happens a lot in ProfessionalWrestling; after a HeelFaceTurn, the new face proceeds to fall for all of the tricks that he perpetrated as a bad guy. See Wrestling/ChrisJericho.
* The flipside of this is that a wrestler who was able to get clean wins as a face will only be able to win by cheating after a FaceHeelTurn. Reputedly {{lampshade|Hanging}}d by Wrestling/RicFlair, who said he didn't cheat because he needed to, but because he could.

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* This happens a lot in ProfessionalWrestling; after a HeelFaceTurn, the new face proceeds to fall for all of the tricks that he perpetrated as a bad guy. See Wrestling/ChrisJericho.
*
Wrestling/ChrisJericho. The flipside of this is that a wrestler who was able to get clean wins as a face will only be able to win by cheating after a FaceHeelTurn. Reputedly {{lampshade|Hanging}}d by Wrestling/RicFlair, who said he didn't cheat because he needed to, but because he could.



* Also {{lampshade|Hanging}}d by Wrestling/{{Sting}} in the dying days of Wrestling/{{WCW}} who, after years of everyone in his life turning on him, finally got ahead of the game by seeing Elizabeth's FaceHeelTurn on him from the same million miles away that the audience did.
** Subverted and played straight at the same time when Sting was exiled from the Main Event Mafia in Wrestling/{{TNA}}. He offered MEM member Wrestling/KevinNash a ball bat and turned his back, testing whether or not Nash would have the courage or lack thereof to hit him from behind. Sting had a second ball bat concealed in his trench coat which he used on the Mafia when Nash was about to swing. Trope is still played straight in the fact that Sting was still in a six-on-one situation and when the Mafia got the advantage, they had TWO baseball bats to use on Sting.

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* Also {{lampshade|Hanging}}d by Wrestling/{{Sting}} in the dying days of Wrestling/{{WCW}} who, after years of everyone in his life turning on him, finally got ahead of the game by seeing Elizabeth's FaceHeelTurn on him from the same million miles away that the audience did.
**
did. Subverted and played straight at the same time when Sting was exiled from the Main Event Mafia in Wrestling/{{TNA}}. He offered MEM member Wrestling/KevinNash a ball bat and turned his back, testing whether or not Nash would have the courage or lack thereof to hit him from behind. Sting had a second ball bat concealed in his trench coat which he used on the Mafia when Nash was about to swing. Trope is still played straight in the fact that Sting was still in a six-on-one situation and when the Mafia got the advantage, they had TWO baseball bats to use on Sting.



** It's even more notable with Roze, Anew, and Kagura who don't even get to keep their units in the ''VideoGame/SuperRobotWarsZ'' series. Roze and Anew are demoted to subpilots, and while for Anew this isn't that big a deal, Roze has higher stats than the main pilot of the Cosmo Crusher AND like Takeru has the ESP ability but is none the less forced to be Kenji's SP tank instead. Kagura at least gets to pilot, but he's a melee character as his brutal attacks as an enemy show, and despite having two different powerful melee centric units as an enemy, as a PC he's forced into the Aquarion Gepard, which has only ranged attacks, making his stats totally wasted. Averted with Jin, who like Kagura loses his Abductor unit in favor of Gepard, because his stats suit it anyway.

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** It's even more notable with Roze, Anew, and Kagura who don't even get to keep their units in the ''VideoGame/SuperRobotWarsZ'' series. Roze and Anew are demoted to subpilots, and while for Anew this isn't that big a deal, Roze has higher stats than the main pilot of the Cosmo Crusher AND like Takeru has the ESP ability but is none the less nonetheless forced to be Kenji's SP tank instead. Kagura at least gets to pilot, but he's a melee character as his brutal attacks as an enemy show, and despite having two different powerful melee centric units as an enemy, as a PC he's forced into the Aquarion Gepard, which has only ranged attacks, making his stats totally wasted. Averted with Jin, who like Kagura loses his Abductor unit in favor of Gepard, because his stats suit it anyway.



* HotBlooded Matsu from ''VideoGame/DotHackGU'' is an Adept Rogue, with the ability to use Broadswords and Steam Guns, the former being his preferred weapon from his Player killing days. However, when he joins Moon Tree, he becomes a pacifist and stops using it. When you get his member address to call him into your party, he can still only equip Steam Guns. The problem here is that Adept Rogues learn moves for their chosen weapon classes at a slower rate because their actual strength is their ability to use multiple weapons, so Matsu is essentially an extremely weak Steam Gunner in comparison to your other, ''actual'' Steam Gunner (though he has the ability to equip heavy armor, something steam gunners can't do).

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* HotBlooded Matsu from ''VideoGame/DotHackGU'' ''VideoGame/DotHackGu'' is an Adept Rogue, with the ability to use Broadswords and Steam Guns, the former being his preferred weapon from his Player killing days. However, when he joins Moon Tree, he becomes a pacifist and stops using it. When you get his member address to call him into your party, he can still only equip Steam Guns. The problem here is that Adept Rogues learn moves for their chosen weapon classes at a slower rate because their actual strength is their ability to use multiple weapons, so Matsu is essentially an extremely weak Steam Gunner in comparison to your other, ''actual'' Steam Gunner (though he has the ability to equip heavy armor, something steam gunners can't do).



* Seen also in ''VideoGame/MegaManPoweredUp'', if playing as one of the other robots. In the place of The robot master you're playing as, you'll fight against an evil Mega Man wearing a purple scarf. He can charge his buster, Slide, and is quite the pain in the ass.

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* Seen also in ''VideoGame/MegaManPoweredUp'', if playing as one of the other robots. In the place of The the robot master you're playing as, you'll fight against an evil Mega Man wearing a purple scarf. He can charge his buster, Slide, and is quite the pain in the ass.



** This also applies to [[spoiler:Psaro]] in the DS remake of ''VideoGame/DragonQuestIV'', since [[spoiler:he doesn't have the Secret of Evolution]]. [[GameBreaker Not that it makes much of a difference.]]

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** This also applies to [[spoiler:Psaro]] in the DS remake of ''VideoGame/DragonQuestIV'', since [[spoiler:he doesn't have the Secret of Evolution]]. [[GameBreaker Not that it makes much of a difference.]]difference]].



* ''VideoGame/{{Lunarosse}}'' zig-zags this trope a little. Elijah and Milo are actually stronger when they join up, but that's to keep them up to date as they join much later than their boss fight. Sonia, the Tierkreis, Abel and Marina play it straight, having noticeably less HP when they join. A justified example is [[spoiler:Noel, who only fights the party when possessed by his SuperpoweredEvilSide, who wouldn't hold back against the good guys.]]

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* ''VideoGame/{{Lunarosse}}'' zig-zags this trope a little. Elijah and Milo are actually stronger when they join up, but that's to keep them up to date as they join much later than their boss fight. Sonia, the Tierkreis, Abel and Marina play it straight, having noticeably less HP when they join. A justified example is [[spoiler:Noel, who only fights the party when possessed by his SuperpoweredEvilSide, who wouldn't hold back against the good guys.]]guys]].



* ''[[VideoGame/FreeSpace Descent: Freespace]]'' does this with a ship: Dragon-class fighter is notorious of being [[DemonicSpiders an absolute nightmare]] to fight against due it's ridiculous speed, maneuverability and small size. In one mission, you get to fly a captured Dragon... except it's been gimped to the point of being rougly equivalent (or arguably ''worse'') to the Terran's own Apollo, a rather unimpressive JackOfAllStats fighter which has been made mostly obsolete by more specialized craft at this point of the game.

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* ''[[VideoGame/FreeSpace Descent: Freespace]]'' does this with a ship: Dragon-class fighter is notorious of for being [[DemonicSpiders an absolute nightmare]] to fight against due to it's ridiculous speed, maneuverability and small size. In one mission, you get to fly a captured Dragon... except it's been gimped to the point of being rougly equivalent (or arguably ''worse'') to the Terran's own Apollo, a rather unimpressive JackOfAllStats fighter which has been made mostly obsolete by more specialized craft at this point of the game.



* When opposing them, Amazo from ''WesternAnimation/JusticeLeague'' was the most powerful being ever introduced who could [[TheJuggernaut brush off every superhero in existence with minimal effort]]. When he fought against Solomon Grundy on the JL's side with the intention of simply erasing him from existence, his attack only served to empower Grundy. Realizing this, Amazo backed off and retreated several light-years to come up with a new strategy. He was still thinking about what to do when the episode ended.
* ''WesternAnimation/KimPossible''

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* When opposing them, Amazo from ''WesternAnimation/JusticeLeague'' was the most powerful being ever introduced who could [[TheJuggernaut brush off every superhero in existence with minimal effort]]. When he fought against Solomon Grundy on the JL's side with the intention of simply erasing him from existence, his attack only served to empower Grundy. Realizing this, Amazo backed off and retreated several light-years to come up with a new strategy. He was still thinking about what to do when the episode ended.
ended and was never seen again.
* ''WesternAnimation/KimPossible''''WesternAnimation/KimPossible'':
9th Oct '17 12:48:17 PM MBG
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** Speedwagon in ''Manga/PhantomBlood'' is the CantCatchUp variant; he was a match for Jonathan and a clearly skilled fighter when he and Jonathan
were both at BadassNormal level, but after Jonathan [[EmpoweredBadassNormal learns Hamon]] and Speedwagon doesn't, he spends the rest of the series as a CombatCommentator who can occasionally get in a hit on {{Mooks}}. Zigzagged, though, in that he turns out to be [[BigGood much more]] [[Fiction500 useful and competent]] [[HypercompetentSidekick as a supporter]] than as a thug.

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** Speedwagon in ''Manga/PhantomBlood'' is the CantCatchUp variant; he was a match for Jonathan and a clearly skilled fighter when he and Jonathan
Jonathan were both at BadassNormal level, but after Jonathan [[EmpoweredBadassNormal learns Hamon]] and Speedwagon doesn't, he spends the rest of the series as a CombatCommentator who can occasionally get in a hit on {{Mooks}}. Zigzagged, though, in that he turns out to be [[BigGood much more]] [[Fiction500 useful and competent]] [[HypercompetentSidekick as a supporter]] than as a thug.
9th Oct '17 12:47:55 PM MBG
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were both at BadassNormal level, but after Jonathan [[EmpoweredBadassNormal learns Hamon]] and Speedwagon doesn't, he spends the rest of the series as a CombatCommentator who can occasionally get in a hit on {{Mooks}}.

to:

were both at BadassNormal level, but after Jonathan [[EmpoweredBadassNormal learns Hamon]] and Speedwagon doesn't, he spends the rest of the series as a CombatCommentator who can occasionally get in a hit on {{Mooks}}. Zigzagged, though, in that he turns out to be [[BigGood much more]] [[Fiction500 useful and competent]] [[HypercompetentSidekick as a supporter]] than as a thug.
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