History Main / ReasoningWithGod

* ''Series/BabylonFive'': Captain Sheridan manages to convince the Vorlons, an ancient powerful race so far beyond the younger races as to be nearly gods in comparison, to directly intervene on behalf on the younger races against the BigBad race called the Shadows. The Shadows are as powerful as the Vorlons and are their chief rival, however previously, the Vorlons would only use younger races as proxies against them rather than involving themselves directly in the fight. In season 4, he tops himself by calling out the Vorlons ''and'' the Shadows for losing sight of why they are fighting their war in the first place. He even points out that they no longer have answers to their own [[ArmorPiercingQuestion questions]] anymore (the Vorlons no longer know who they are and the Shadows no longer know what they want). He orders them to get out of the galaxy and leave the younger races alone, and they comply. Making it better is that they aren't actually convinced by his argument, it's by the fact that he'd managed to broadcast it and them admitting they don't care to everyone else including their former proxy races; they essentially left the galaxy out of sheer embarrassment.

** Abraham persuades {{God}} to spare [[WretchedHive Sodom]] if ten righteous men are found in the city (there wasn't). Which actually spawned an interesting theological debate that still continues to this day. If God is omniscient, then he already knew there weren't ten righteous men to be found, so God's agreement to the pact merely delays a divine punishment he already decided on - in other words, God deceived Abraham. Conversely, if God did not deceive Abraham, this implies that God is not omniscient. Doesn't seem that complex. "I know there aren't ten good people in there. But if there were, I wouldn't destroy the city." Those in favor of omniscience argue that the discussion was for Abraham's benefit, he was having a crisis of faith over God's destruction of a city full of (presumed) innocents so God talked the issue over him and reassured him that he would spare the city if it wasn't really rotten to the core. The theological debate kind of glosses over the reason why Abraham was reasoning with God in the first place, not only did he not want God to kill righteous men but specifically wanted God to spare his nephew Lot who was living there. While God did not think Sodom had enough righteous inhabitants to warrant sparing it, he did warn Lot and his family and tell them to leave beforehand. Moreover, God did not deceive Abraham because he kept their agreement; that Abraham did not know the specific conditions of the agreement were not met and is irrelevant. Even if Abraham's and God's specific agreement on how many inhabitants would be necessary to spare the city was pointless, God still spared the righteous that were there, which was the whole purpose behind Abraham's reasoning in the first place.

* In ''Literature/{{Unsong}}'', Henry Kissinger assures Richard Nixon that an alliance with hell against communism, despite any celestial opinions, is rational.

** Abraham persuades God to spare Sodom if ten righteous men are found in the city (there wasn't). Which actually spawned an interesting theological debate that still continues to this day. If God is omniscient, then he already knew there weren't ten righteous men to be found, so God's agreement to the pact merely delays a divine punishment he already decided on - in other words, God deceived Abraham. Conversely, if God did not deceive Abraham, this implies that God is not omniscient. Doesn't seem that complex. "I know there aren't ten good people in there. But if there were, I wouldn't destroy the city." Those in favor of omniscience argue that the discussion was for Abraham's benefit, he was having a crisis of faith over God's destruction of a city full of (presumed) innocents so God talked the issue over him and reassured him that he would spare the city if it wasn't really rotten to the core. The theological debate kind of glosses over the reason why Abraham was reasoning with God in the first place, not only did he not want God to kill righteous men but specifically wanted God to spare his nephew Lot who was living there. While God did not think Sodom had enough righteous inhabitants to warrant sparring it, he did warn Lot and his family and tell them to leave beforehand. Moreover, God did not deceive Abraham because he kept their agreement; that Abraham did not know the specific conditions of the agreement were not met is irrelevant. Even if Abraham's and God's specific agreement on how many inhabitants would be necessary to spare the city was pointless, God still spared the righteous that were there, which was the whole purpose behind Abraham's reasoning in the first place.

* ''Series/StarTrekDeepSpaceNine'':
** "[[Recap/StarTrekDeepSpaceNineS03E16ProphetMotive Prophet Motive]]" has Quark of all people do this when convincing the Prophets to undo a change they made to his own spiritual leader (regressing him to pre-PlanetOfHats state). First he tries to argue that [[Film/WallStreet greed is a virtue]] and essential to corporeal beings, but [[{{Pun}} they don't buy it]] and declare they'll just do the same thing to him and send him on his way too. He manages to convince them by pointing out that if they do, it will just attract ''more'' of his kind to come looking for answers. They recognize his "linear" logic, concede to undo their changes to his leader, and make him promise that neither he nor anyone else from his species will come bother them again.
** Ben Sisko gets the Prophets to intervene during the climax of the episode "[[Recap/StarTrekDeepSpaceNineS06E06SacrificeOfAngels Sacrifice of Angels]]"; they wipe out a Dominion fleet entering the wormhole. Another episode has his Bajoran first officer, who reveres the Prophets [[SufficientlyAdvancedAlien as something like gods]], point out how special his relationship with the Prophets is; they not only speak ''to'' him directly, but also ''listen'' when he tries to talk or argue with them.
* ''Series/{{Supernatural}}'':
** Dean asks [[TheGrimReaper Death]] to restore Sam's soul. Death has a price: Dean has to be [[SubbingForSanta Death for one day]]. Dean fails, but Death's a nice guy and does it anyway.
** Averted in "[[Recap/SupernaturalS08E16RememberTheTitans Remember the Titans]]" when Dean warns the VictimOfTheWeek that you don't 'ask' a god for anything, [[AggressiveNegotiations you demand it]]. She forgets this and discovers that a {{Jerkass God|s}} feels no obligation to [[ILied keep his word to a mere mortal]].

* In ''Series/BabylonFive'', Captain Sheridan manages to convince the Vorlons, an ancient powerful race so far beyond the younger races as to be nearly gods in comparison, to directly intervene on behalf on the younger races against the BigBad race called the Shadows. The Shadows are as powerful as the Vorlons and are their chief rival, however previously, the Vorlons would only use younger races as proxies against them rather than involving themselves directly in the fight. In season 4, he tops himself by calling out the Vorlons ''and'' the Shadows for losing sight of why they are fighting their war in the first place. He even points out that they no longer have answers to their own [[ArmorPiercingQuestion questions]] anymore (the Vorlons no longer know who they are and the Shadows no longer know what they want). He orders them to get out of the galaxy and leave the younger races alone, and they comply. Making it better is that they aren't actually convinced by his argument, it's by the fact that he'd managed to broadcast it and them admitting they don't care to everyone else including their former proxy races; they essentially left the galaxy out of sheer embarrassment.
* In the ''Series/StarTrekTheNextGeneration'' episode "[[Recap/StarTrekTheNextGenerationS1E7Justice Justice]]", Captain Picard -- interfering with a local planet's pending execution of Wesley because he stepped over a literal line, and in apparent defiance of a largely unseen entity they see as their god -- appeals to any "creature that might be listening" that "there can be no justice so long as laws are absolute," that is, that AllCrimesAreEqual (and here unto death). The surrounding scene says it ''worked.''

* ''LightNovel/ScrappedPrincess'': At the end, Pacifica Casull convinces [[spoiler:Lord Mauser to give humanity another shot at the aliens]].

* ''ComicBook/SpiderMan'': There was an issue in where Spidey dies along with a little girl he was trying to save. After a brief fight with ComicBook/{{Thanos}}, he talks to [[TheGrimReaper Death]] herself, convincing her to allow a little girl to come back to life. In honor of his bravery, Spider-Man comes back as well.

** Ben Sisko gets the Prophets to intervene during the climax of the episode "Sacrifice of Angels"; they wipe out a Dominion fleet entering the wormhole. Another episode has his Bajoran first-officer, who reveres the Prophets [[SufficientlyAdvancedAliens as something like Gods]], point out how special his relationship with the Prophets is; they not only speak ''to'' him directly, but also ''listen'' when he tries to talk or argue with them.
** Another episode has Quark of all people do this when convincing the Prophets to undo a change they made to his own spiritual leader (regressing him to pre-{{Planet of Hats}} state). First he tries to argue that [[Film/WallStreet greed is a virtue]] and essential to corporeal beings, but [[IncrediblyLamePun they don't buy it]] and declare they'll just do the same thing to him and send him on his way too. He manages to convince them by pointing out that if they do, it will just attract ''more'' of his kind to come looking for answers. They recognize his "linear" logic, concede to undo their changes to his leader, and make him promise that neither he nor anyone else from his species will come bother them again.
* ''Series/{{Supernatural}}''
** Dean asks {{Death}} to restore Sam's soul. Death has a price: Dean has to be [[SubbingForSanta Death for one day]]. Dean fails, but Death's a nice guy and does it anyway.
** Averted in "Remember The Titans" when Dean warns the VictimOfTheWeek that you don't 'ask' a god for anything, [[AggressiveNegotiations you demand it]]. She forgets this and discovers that a {{Jerkass God|s}} feels no obligation to [[ILied keep his word to a mere mortal]].
* On ''Series/MysteryScienceTheater3000'', they spoof this trope while watching ''[[Film/{{Morozko}} Jack Frost]]'', specifically the scene where the girl has to finish her sock before the sun rises, and the girl asks the sun to wait.

* In ''Series/StarTrekTheNextGeneration'', it has this feeling when Captain Picard, interfering with a local planet's pending execution of Wesley because he stepped over a literal line, and in apparent defiance of a largely unseen entity they see as their god, appeals to any "creature that might be listening" that "there can be no justice so long as laws are absolute," that is, that AllCrimesAreEqual (and here unto death). The surrounding scene says it ''worked.''

* ''Fanfic/ForgedDestiny'': Jaune to [[spoiler:Salem]] in Book 4. He proposes that, as her presence naturally paralyzes those around her, her orders to [[spoiler:Tyrian]] to kill them would be unfulfilled as she would be the one responsible for their deaths, not her servant, and such an act would not prove said servant's worth. [[spoiler:[[SubvertedTrope Subverted]] as Salem does not care for how worthy Tyrian is, so a fair fight doesn't matter. DoubleSubverted as, while the fairness of the fight doesn't matter, how [[ItAmusedMe entertaining it is does]] so she agrees to remove her presence from three heroes of Jaune's choosing.]]

* ''Literature/TheSilmarillion'':
** Eärendil successfully convinces the Valar to abandon their isolationist policies and save Middle-Earth from Morgoth.
** Lúthien also convinces Mandos to bring Beren back to life, in exchange for turning her into a mortal.

->''But Moses sought the favor of the Lord his God. "Lord," he said, "why should your anger burn against your people, whom you brought out of Egypt with great power and a mighty hand? Why should the Egyptians say, 'It was with evil intent that he brought them out, to kill them in the mountains and to wipe them off the face of the earth'? Turn from your fierce anger; relent and do not bring disaster on your people. Remember your servants Abraham, Isaac and Israel, to whom you swore by your own self: 'I will make your descendants as numerous as the stars in the sky and I will give your descendants all this land I promised them, and it will be their inheritance forever.'" Then the Lord relented and did not bring on his people the disaster he had threatened.''

* ''ComicBook/{{Watchmen}}'': Laurie talks with Dr. Manhattan on Mars and convinces him to come back to Earth to help with the current crisis. Of course, it's exactly what he ''told'' her would happen at the end of their conversation and why he swung back to Earth to pick her up when the time came. Still, it wasn't pointless: he ''wouldn't'' have changed his mind if she hadn't convinced him to, he just foresaw that it would happen.

** Ben Sisko gets the Prophets to intervene during the climax of the episode "Sacrifice of Angels"; they wipe out an entire Dominion fleet entering the wormhole. Another episode has his Bajoran first-officer, who reveres the Prophets [[SufficientlyAdvancedAliens as something like Gods]], point out how special his relationship with the Prophets is; they not only speak ''to'' him directly, but also ''listen'' when he tries to talk or argue with them.

* In ''Series/BabylonFive'', Captain Sheridan manages to convince the Vorlons, an ancient powerful race so far beyond the younger races as to be nearly gods in comparison, to directly intervene on behalf on the younger races against the BigBad race called the Shadows. The Shadows are as powerful as the Vorlons and are their chief rival, however previously, the Vorlons would only use younger races as proxies against them rather than involving themselves directly in the fight. In season 4, he tops himself by calling out the Vorlons ''and'' the Shadows for losing sight of why they are fighting their war in the first place. He even points out that they no longer have answers to their own [[ArmorPiercingQuestion questions]] anymore (the Vorlons no longer know who they are and the Shadows no longer know what they want). He orders them to get the hell out of the galaxy and leave the younger races alone, and they comply. Making it better is that they aren't actually convinced by his argument, it's by the fact that he'd managed to broadcast it and them admitting they don't care to everyone else including their former proxy races; they essentially left the galaxy out of sheer embarrassment.

** Abraham persuades God to spare Sodom if ten righteous men are found in the city (there wasn't). Which actually spawned an interesting theological debate that still continues to this day. If God is omniscient, then he already knew there weren't ten righteous men to be found, so God's agreement to the pact merely delays a divine punishment he already decided on - in other words, God deceived Abraham. Conversely, if God did not deceive Abraham, this implies that God is not omniscient. Doesn't seem that complex. "I know there aren't ten good people in there. But if there were, I wouldn't destroy the city." Those in favor of omniscience argue that the discussion was for Abraham's benefit, he was having a crisis of faith over God's destruction of a city full of (presumed) innocents so God talked the issue over him and reassured him that he would spare the city if it wasn't really rotten to the core. The theological debate kind of glosses over the reason why Abraham was reasoning with God in the first place, not only did he not want God to kill righteous men but specifically wanted God to spare his nephew Lot who was living there. While God did not think Sodom had enough righteous inhabitants to warrant sparring it, he did warn Lot and his family and tell them to leave beforehand. Moreover, God did not deceive Abraham because he kept their agreement; that Abraham did not know the specific conditions of the agreement were not met is irrelevant. And even if Abraham's and God's specific agreement on how many inhabitants would be necessary to spare the city was pointless, God still spared the righteous that were there, which was the whole purpose behind Abraham's reasoning in the first place.

-> ''But Moses sought the favor of the Lord his God. "Lord," he said, "why should your anger burn against your people, whom you brought out of Egypt with great power and a mighty hand? Why should the Egyptians say, 'It was with evil intent that he brought them out, to kill them in the mountains and to wipe them off the face of the earth'? Turn from your fierce anger; relent and do not bring disaster on your people. Remember your servants Abraham, Isaac and Israel, to whom you swore by your own self: 'I will make your descendants as numerous as the stars in the sky and I will give your descendants all this land I promised them, and it will be their inheritance forever.'" Then the Lord relented and did not bring on his people the disaster he had threatened.''

* In the end of ''LightNovel/ScrappedPrincess'', Pacifica Casull convinces [[spoiler:Lord Mauser to give humanity another shot at the aliens]].
* In ''Manga/MagicKnightRayearth'', Fuu and Umi plead with Mokona to let them help Hikaru. They then manage to somehow pass the gate to the other world (earth), so it's implied he let them

* Laurie talks with Dr. Manhattan on Mars in ''ComicBook/{{Watchmen}}'' and convinces him to come back to Earth to help with the current crisis. Of course, it's exactly what he ''told'' her would happen at the end of their conversation and why he swung back to Earth to pick her up when the time came.[[note]]Still, it wasn't pointless: he ''wouldn't'' have changed his mind if she hadn't convinced him to, he just foresaw that it would happen.[[/note]]
* There was an issue in ''ComicBook/SpiderMan'' where Spidey dies along with a little girl he was trying to save. After a brief fight with ComicBook/{{Thanos}}, he talks to [[TheGrimReaper Death]] herself, convincing her to allow a little girl to come back to life. In honor of his bravery, Spider-Man comes back as well.
* In the end of ''ComicBook/KingdomCome'', Reverend [=McCay=] talks down a rampaging Comicbook/{{Superman}} by appealing to his human side ("Man", as opposed to "Super" that has taken him over).

* [[spoiler:Cassidy]] makes a deal with God towards the end of ''{{ComicBook/Preacher}}'': [[spoiler:he distracts and arranges for Jesse to get killed, forcing Genesis to leave the host and thus no longer posing any danger to God. In exchange, God brings Jesse and friends BackFromTheDead, minus vampirism in Cassidy's case.]] All goes as worked out, with the minor detail that [[spoiler:while God was away and thus non-omniscient, the Saint of Killers went OneManArmy on the armies of Heaven, sitting on the Throne of Paradise before God could get to it and ''killing God'']].

* Jaune to [[spoiler:Salem]] in Book 4 of ''Fanfic/ForgedDestiny''. He proposes that, as her presence naturally paralyzes those around her, her orders to [[spoiler:Tyrian]] to kill them would be unfulfilled as ''she'' would be the one responsible for their deaths, not her servant, and such an act would not prove said servant's worth. [[spoiler:[[SubvertedTrope Subverted]] as Salem does not care for how worthy Tyrian is, so a fair fight doesn't matter. DoubleSubverted as, while the fairness of the fight doesn't matter, how [[ItAmusedMe entertaining it is does]] so she agrees to remove her presence from three heroes of Jaune's choosing.]]

* Jake in ''Film/{{Avatar}}'' communes with Eywa and asks her to help the Na'vi fight off the human invaders. Neytiri doesn't think she'll intervene, until the battle reaches its DarkestHour, and then...

* [[Film/ConanTheBarbarian1982 Conan]] manages an unusual variant when he prays to his patron, Krom, just before the final showdown. Krom is a stoic and aloof warrior god, one who teaches that his followers should be strong enough to solve their own problems (and thus ''asking'' for his help displeases him, so he never grants it). But Conan's heartfelt prayer strikes just the right balance of humility (I probably can't win this fight), honor (I'm going to fight anyway), and bravado (If you won't help, screw you anyway!) that Krom actually sends him a minor miracle (which blocked a ''single'' enemy blow at just the right moment), which is only enough to give Conan a ''chance''.

* Eärendil in ''Literature/TheSilmarillion'' successfully convinces the Valar to abandon their isolationist policies and save Middle-Earth from Morgoth.

* The ''Literature/{{Percy Jackson|and the Olympians}}'' series is the definition of this trope. Percy and Co. often convince the gods to either a, help them, or b, at least not to destroy them completely.

* Multiple examples in Literature/TheBible (particularly in the Old Testament--see JewsLoveToArgue):
** Such as when Abraham persuaded God to spare Sodom if ten righteous men were found in the city (there wasn't). Which actually spawned an interesting theological debate that still continues to this day. If God is omniscient, then he already knew there weren't ten righteous men to be found, so God's agreement to the pact merely delays a divine punishment he already decided on - in other words, God deceived Abraham. Conversely, if God did not deceive Abraham, this implies that God is not omniscient. Doesn't seem that complex. "I know there aren't ten good people in there. But if there were, I wouldn't destroy the city." Those in favor of omniscience tend to argue that the discussion was for Abraham's benefit, he was having a crisis of faith over God's destruction of a city full of (presumed) innocents so God talked the issue over him and reassured him that he would spare the city if it wasn't really rotten to the core. The theological debate kind of glosses over the reason why Abraham was reasoning with God in the first place, not only did he not want God to kill righteous men but specifically wanted God to spare his nephew Lot who was living there. While God did not think Sodom had enough righteous inhabitants to warrant sparring it, he did warn Lot and his family and tell them to leave beforehand. Moreover, God did not deceive Abraham because he kept their agreement; the Abraham did not know the specific conditions of the agreement were not met is irrelevant. And even if Abraham's and God's specific agreement on how many inhabitants would be necessary to spare the city was pointless, God still spared the righteous that were there, which was the whole purpose behind Abraham's reasoning in the first place.
** Moses, on several occasions, talked God successfully out of enacting his wrath of the Israelites. Most notably, when God becomes angry with the Israelites, Moses reminds God of his promise to Abraham to make his descendants as numerous as the sand of the desert, and thus talks God down from killing all the people of Israel.
*** This is debated fairly extensively among Biblical scholars - though let's be honest, what isn't? Based on the structure of God's threat against the Israelites and how Moses responds, some scholars believe that the conversation between God and Moses is more play-acting for the benefit of the Israelites than any kind of actual debate. God threatens to massacre the Israelites because they have started worshiping the false gods whom they believe brought them out of Egypt, while Moses responds by "reminding" God of His promises and the fact that He is the one who brought them out of Egypt.

* Multiple examples in Literature/TheBible (particularly in the Old Testament--see JewsLoveToArgue):
** Such as when Abraham persuaded God to spare Sodom if ten righteous men were found in the city (there wasn't). Which actually spawned an interesting theological debate that still continues to this day. If God is omniscient, then he already knew there weren't ten righteous men to be found, so God's agreement to the pact merely delays a divine punishment he already decided on - in other words, God deceived Abraham. Conversely, if God did not deceive Abraham, this implies that God is not omniscient. Doesn't seem that complex. "I know there aren't ten good people in there. But if there were, I wouldn't destroy the city." Those in Favor of omniscience tend to argue that the discussion was for Abraham's benefit, he was having a crisis of faith over God's destruction of a city full of (presumed) innocents so God talked the issue over him and reassured him that he would spare the city if it wasn't really rotten to the core. The theological debate kind of glosses over the reason why Abraham was reasoning with God in the first place, not only did he not want God to kill righteous men but specifically wanted God to spare his nephew Lot who was living there. While God did not think Sodom had enough righteous inhabitants to warrant sparring it, he did warn Lot and his family and tell them to leave beforehand. Moreover, God did not deceive Abraham because he kept their agreement; the Abraham did not know the specific conditions of the agreement were not met is irrelevant. And even if Abraham's and God's specific agreement on how many inhabitants would be necessary to spare the city was pointless, God still spared the righteous that were there, which was the whole purpose behind Abraham's reasoning in the first place.
** Moses, on several occasions, talked God successfully out of enacting his wrath of the Israelites. Most notably, when God becomes angry with the Israelites, Moses reminds God of his promise to Abraham to make his descendants as numerous as the sand of the desert, and thus talks God down from killing all the people of Israel.
*** This is debated fairly extensively among Biblical scholars - though let's be honest, what isn't? Based on the structure of God's threat against the Israelites and how Moses responds, some scholars believe that the conversation between God and Moses is more play-acting for the benefit of the Israelites than any kind of actual debate. God threatens to massacre the Israelites because they have started worshiping the false gods whom they believe brought them out of Egypt, while Moses responds by "reminding" God of His promises and the fact that He is the one who brought them out of Egypt.
** The opening chapter of Isaiah includes the line, "Come, let us reason together."

* In the end of ''ComicBook/KingdomCome'', Reverend [=McCay=] talks down a rampaging {{Superman}} by appealing to his human side ("Man", as opposed to "Super" that has taken him over).

[[folder: Anime & Manga ]]

[[folder: Comic Books ]]

* In the pages of ''ComicBook/TheSandman'', as indeed in the original story, Orpheus manages to convince Hades and Persephone - the god and goddess of the land of the dead - to allow his lost love Eurydice to follow him back to the land of the living through the beauty of his music. It still doesn't end well.

[[folder: Fan Works ]]

[[folder: Film ]]

* ''Film/{{Xanadu|1980}}''. Sonny, upon finding out that Kira is a muse, goes to this strange neon dimension and tells Zeus off for forcing Kira to come home. Hera and Zeus discuss it but decide not and dismiss him. Kira begs, and they reconsider.

[[folder: Literature ]]

--> '''Kissinger:''' The idea behind the alliance was sound. We did not entirely understand how things stood at the time, but even if we had, I would have made the same suggestion. Brezhnev was getting too strong, especially with the Vietnamese and the South American communist movements. We did what we had to do. If the good Lord disagrees with me, I will be happy to point out His tactical errors.
* Literature/{{Discworld}}:

--->[[AC: What can the harvest hope for, if not for the care of the Reaper Man? ]]

[[folder: Live-Action TV ]]

[[folder: Webcomics ]]

* In ''Webcomic/ElGoonishShive'', Tedd, Arthur and Van are [[http://egscomics.com/comic/2018-01-29 tasked]] with advising the [[SentientCosmicForce Will of Magic]] on whether it should make severe or minimum changes to the rules of magic.

** Averted in "Remember The Titans" when Dean warns the VictimOfTheWeek that you don't 'ask' a god for anything, [[AggressiveNegotiations you demand it]]. She forgets this and discovers that a JerkassGod feels no obligation to [[ILied keep his word to a mere mortal]].

* ''Series/{{Supernatural}}'': Dean asks {{Death}} to restore Sam's soul. Death has a price: Dean has to be [[SubbingForSanta Death for one day]]. Dean fails, but Death's a nice guy and does it anyway.

* ''Film/{{Xanadu}}''. Sonny, upon finding out that Kira is a muse, goes to this strange neon dimension and tells Zeus off for forcing Kira to come home. Hera and Zeus discuss it but decide not and dismiss him. Kira begs, and they reconsider.

* In ''Series/BabylonFive'', Captain Sheridan manages to convince the Vorlons, an ancient powerful race so far beyond the younger races as to be nearly gods in comparison, to directly intervene on behalf on the younger races against the BigBad race called the Shadows. The Shadows are as powerful as the Vorlons and are their chief rival, however previously, the Vorlons would only use younger races as proxies against them rather than involving themselves directly in the fight. In season 4, he tops himself by calling out the Vorlons ''and'' the Shadows for losing sight of why they are fighting their war in the first place. He even points out that they no longer have answers to their own [[ArmorPiercingQuestion questions]] anymore (the Vorlons no longer know who they are and the Shadows no longer know what they want). He orders them to get the hell out of the galaxy and leave the younger races alone, and they comply.