History Main / NeverASelfMadeWoman

20th Jan '18 5:29:35 AM Mytly
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* ''Literature/VorkosiganSaga'' centers around an aristocratic society so naturally everyone's success is family. But women are more in the background of vor society, and their main power is influence [[WomanBehindTheMan influence]] which some vor women know how to wield competently. More odd is Cordelia who in her native land was a BoldExplorer but on Barrayar was satisfied to be a properly maternal if rather eccentric vor woman. Miles is the closest to a self-made character in the series as he made himself a mercenary warlord in an area to far away from his planet for anyone to know about his princely lineage and used that to do covert ops for his native planet until he rose high in power and prestige.

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* ''Literature/VorkosiganSaga'' centers around an aristocratic society so naturally everyone's success is family. But women are more in the background of vor society, and their main power is influence [[WomanBehindTheMan influence]] which some vor women know how to wield competently. More odd is Cordelia who in her native land was a BoldExplorer but on Barrayar was satisfied to be a properly maternal if rather eccentric vor woman. Miles is the closest to a self-made character in the series as he made himself a mercenary warlord in an area to too far away from his planet for anyone to know about his princely lineage and used that to do covert ops for his native planet until he rose high in power and prestige.
15th Jan '18 4:45:26 AM lalaTKG
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** Kairi initially averted it as her status as a Princess of Heart and her backstory living with her grandmother in Radiant Garden had nothing to do with male characters. However, starting from Chain of Memories, the writers started writing her as Sora's girlfriend and nothing more. Although not passive, she has almost no powers of her own, and her main role in the second game is to be kidnapped by the male villains and then rescued by the male heroes She does eventually get a Keyblade of her own, but instead of manifesting it like all the boys, she has it literally handed to her, and she uses it for all of one mostly off-screen fight against random mooks. [[spoiler: And even if she is going to be trained to be an ActionGirl by the third game, she still plays this straight as she gains her talents ''only'' because of her new teacher; Yen Sid]].
** The same also applies to her Nobody Namine: starting from the middle of Chain of Memories, her sole motivation becomes to help Sora, then later his own Nobody Roxas, in any way she can. Also to note is the fact she always owes male characters for anything, such as Axel helping her to escape Organization XIII or Riku's BigDamnHeroes when she and Kairi are threatened by Saix. This also applies to the time she was working for Diz, where all she was seen to do was obeying his orders, never speaking him out in any way despite his own racist remarks regarding Nobodies.

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** Kairi initially averted it as her status as a Princess of Heart and her backstory living with her grandmother in Radiant Garden had nothing to do with male characters. However, starting from Chain ''Chain of Memories, Memories'', the writers started writing her as Sora's girlfriend LoveInterest and nothing more. Although not passive, she has almost no powers of her own, and her main role in the second game ''II'' is to be kidnapped by the male villains and then rescued by the male heroes heroes. She does eventually get a Keyblade of her own, but instead of manifesting it like all the boys, she has it literally handed to her, and she uses it for all of one mostly off-screen fight against random mooks. [[spoiler: And even if she is going to be trained to be an ActionGirl by the third game, ''III'', she still plays this straight as she gains her talents ''only'' because of her new teacher; Yen Sid]].
** The same also applies to her Nobody Namine: starting from the middle of Chain ''Chain of Memories, Memories'', her sole motivation becomes to help Sora, then later his own Nobody Roxas, in any way she can. Also to note is the fact she always owes male characters for anything, such as Axel helping her to escape Organization XIII or Riku's BigDamnHeroes when she and Kairi are threatened by Saix. This also applies to the time she was working for Diz, where all she was seen to do was obeying his orders, never speaking him out in any way despite his own racist remarks regarding Nobodies.
31st Dec '17 4:51:32 PM BattleMaster
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* Stella Bridger of ''TheItalianJob'' is the safe cracker and a necessary part of the team, but she is also Charlie's love interest and his mentor's daughter.

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* Stella Bridger of ''TheItalianJob'' is the safe cracker and a necessary part of the team, but she is also the daughter of Charlie's love interest mentor and his mentor's daughter.got chosen for the job for that reason.
7th Dec '17 7:49:27 PM jharrison3051
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** Similarly, the first two women governors, Nellie Tayloe Ross and Miriam A. Ferguson, were preceded by their husbands in office. It wasn't until 1974 when Ella T. Grasso was elected governor of Connecticut that a woman who wasn't the wife or widow of a prior governor was elected.



** Similarly, the first two women governors, Nellie Tayloe Ross and Miriam A. Ferguson, were preceded by their husbands in office. It wasn't until 1974 when Ella T. Grasso was elected governor of Connecticut that a woman who wasn't the wife or widow of a prior governor was elected.
7th Dec '17 7:49:02 PM jharrison3051
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Added DiffLines:

**Similarly, the first two women governors, Nellie Tayloe Ross and Miriam A. Ferguson, were preceded by their husbands in office. It wasn't until 1974 when Ella T. Grasso was elected governor of Connecticut that a woman who wasn't the wife or widow of a prior governor was elected.
1st Dec '17 9:42:56 AM lillolillo
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** Post-Crisis Kara got help and training of Superman, Batman and Wonder Woman when she arrived on Earth, but at the beginning she messed up... ''a lot''. After a monumental screw-up, she thought that her cousin was about to lecture her, and she stated that she was finally learning and she didn't need his validation. To her surprise, Clark agreed.

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** Post-Crisis Kara got help and training of Superman, Batman and Wonder Woman when she arrived on Earth, but at the beginning she messed up... ''a lot''. [[ComicBook/Supergirl2005 After a monumental screw-up, screw-up]], she thought that her cousin was about to lecture her, and she stated that she was finally learning and she didn't need his validation. To her surprise, Clark agreed.
26th Nov '17 9:08:54 AM nombretomado
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** Some games, such as ''[[VideoGame/HarvestMoonBackToNature Back to Nature For Girl]]'' and ''3'' for the GameBoyColor, showcase this trope. The male character's "goal", denoting the end of the game and the point at which the credits roll, is to run a successful business out of his farm. The female character's goal is to get married. Other games in the series allow female characters to continue playing past marriage.

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** Some games, such as ''[[VideoGame/HarvestMoonBackToNature Back to Nature For Girl]]'' and ''3'' for the GameBoyColor, UsefulNotes/GameBoyColor, showcase this trope. The male character's "goal", denoting the end of the game and the point at which the credits roll, is to run a successful business out of his farm. The female character's goal is to get married. Other games in the series allow female characters to continue playing past marriage.
9th Oct '17 12:53:36 PM AlleyOop
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''In a cast [[LoadsAndLoadsOfCharacters with many characters]] there is a tendency to give any female character of importance a male character to thank for her position.''

The author or the characters have to choose who gets to join in on the hijinks or know the secrets; chances are, because MostWritersAreMale, most of the people they choose are going to be men. Women who join in are most commonly there as a "bonus" to someone else, often as a love interest or a family member. She's usually someone's sister, girlfriend or love interest. If she's a military or political leader of some sort, then you can bet that she got the position with help from her father or another male relative.

There are shades to this. We may have the woman who has achieved a lot in her field (whatever it may be) and gone up in society, but whenever her background is brought up, it is always a man in her family (father, uncle, older brother or husband) who is prominent as her predecessor or a key to her success. It will be strongly implied that she would never have gotten into this Business if she hadn't been motivated and trained by her powerful male relatives who [[DungeonmastersGirlfriend are active on the same field]]. In short, a personal, emotional relationship with a mentor is needed, not just a professional one driven by her own independent ambitions. She might have grown into her own badassery, but the story will continue to define her as the more important male character's apprentice or heiress.

A perceived "barrier between the sexes" may be to blame for this -- specifically, the notion that women and men can't socialize without justifying it with a sexual or familial bond. Writers use this trope to justify to viewers (presumed male) why they should care about the female character at all.

In short, this is another example of DoubleStandard. Of course, this tends to lead to a double bind situation in which people will discredit a woman's accomplishments because she is connected to a man.

!!Please note that this trope is more subtle than DungeonmastersGirlfriend and other similar tropes. Chances are that most of the examples here do get some credit for their accomplishments; that doesn't negate that their fathers, boyfriends, etc. are more important than they are.

'''Please don't add any [[AvertedTrope "aversions"]] to the example list. Unless the trope is near omnipresent, examples where it's not used are not "aversions". For more info, see the AvertedTrope page.'''

'''Also note that male characters owing their success to more powerful women are generally not [[InvertedTrope "inversions"]] of this trope, unless the setting carries the same implications (women are expected to be self-made while men are not).'''

to:

''In a cast [[LoadsAndLoadsOfCharacters with many characters]] there This is an insidious trope where a tendency to give any female character character's success is undermined by the narrative of importance a male character to thank providing advantages necessary for her position.''

The author or the characters have to choose who gets to join in on the hijinks or know the secrets; chances are, because MostWritersAreMale, most of the people they choose are going to be men. Women who join in are most commonly there as a "bonus" to someone else, often as a love interest or a family member.
them. She's usually framed as someone's sister, girlfriend or love interest. If And if she's a military or political leader of some sort, then you can bet that she got the position with help from her father or another male relative.

There are shades to this. We may have the woman who has achieved a lot in
relative. The story implies her field (whatever it may be) membership is due to motivation and gone up in society, but whenever her background is brought up, it is always a man in her family (father, uncle, older brother or husband) who is prominent as her predecessor or a key to her success. It will be strongly implied that she would never have gotten into this Business if she hadn't been motivated and trained training by her powerful male relatives who [[DungeonmastersGirlfriend are active on the same field]]. field. In short, a personal, emotional relationship with a mentor is needed, not just a professional one driven by her own independent ambitions. She might have grown into her own badassery, ambitions.

This character stands in contrast to SelfMadeMan, where a character ([[AlwaysMale usually male]],
but the story not always) was able to accomplish goals well beyond their advantages. In short, this is another example of DoubleStandard. Due to stereotypes about separate gender roles, writers will continue to define her as the more important male character's apprentice or heiress.

A perceived "barrier between the sexes" may be to blame for this -- specifically, the notion that women and men can't socialize without justifying it with a sexual or familial bond. Writers
often use this trope to justify to viewers (presumed male) why they should care about the female character at all.

In short, this
all, as it is another example of DoubleStandard. Of course, this tends to lead to a double bind situation in which people will discredit a woman's accomplishments because she is connected to a man.

!!Please note that this trope is more subtle than DungeonmastersGirlfriend and other similar tropes. Chances are that most of
assumed the examples here do get some credit female character would not have taken an interest had it not been for their accomplishments; that doesn't negate that their fathers, boyfriends, etc. are more important than they are.

'''Please don't add any [[AvertedTrope "aversions"]] to
the example list. Unless the trope is near omnipresent, examples where it's not used are not "aversions". For more info, see the AvertedTrope page.'''

'''Also note
presence of that male characters owing their success to more powerful women are generally not [[InvertedTrope "inversions"]] of this trope, unless the setting carries the same implications (women are expected to be self-made while men are not).'''
character.



Not to be confused with SelfMadeMan where a person gains importance on his/her own. See also MostWritersAreMale. If a character gets DemotedToExtra after becoming someone's LoveInterest, it's DemotedToSatelliteLoveInterest.

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Not Keep in mind that [[IThoughtItMeant this is not]] the strict inverse of SelfMadeWoman and does not apply to be confused with SelfMadeMan where every instance of a person gains importance on his/her own. See also MostWritersAreMale. If a female character gets DemotedToExtra after becoming someone's LoveInterest, being helped by a male friend, relative, or love interest to reach her position. Rather, the male character must be implied to be more important to the plot or setting than the female character is, and the main force responsible for her position (e.g. the token female of the squad is a skilled soldier, but she's introduced as "the general's daughter" first and foremost).

'''Please don't add any [[AvertedTrope "aversions"]] to the example list. Unless the trope is near omnipresent, examples where
it's DemotedToSatelliteLoveInterest.
not used are not "aversions". For more info, see the AvertedTrope page.'''

'''Also note that male characters owing their success to more powerful women are generally not [[InvertedTrope "inversions"]] of this trope, unless the setting carries the same implications (women are expected to be self-made while men are not).'''

16th Sep '17 1:04:01 PM Eagal
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* Inverted in ''Manga/{{Jackals}}'' where Alligator Nichol, ''[[TheHero the main character]]'', owes the mastery of his massive two-handed blade to his mother, Roxy the Grim Reaper. Yes. He's a total badass but he's been trained by a woman. In fact, the whole story seems to make it a point to subvert this trope to hell and back when it comes to female characters. Only the resident DamselInDistress plays the trope straight.



* ''Manga/TheLegendOfMotherSarah'' averts and inverts the trope. The story features a female protagonist whose relevance to the plot has nothing to do with her being the wife/sister/daughter of a male protagonist. In fact, her son Harato, a rebellion leader, is actually relevant to the story because she is in it, not the other way around.



** This trope is even inverted in season 7, where Barney's character is appropriated as Robin's love interest, and his main significance is to be a source of angst for Robin. This makes the single brief look at his perspective in "Tick, Tick, Tick" all the more heartbreaking, as the audience knows that while Robin is busy going through character development and struggling with her personal conflicts, Barney is miserably and silently OutOfFocus, waiting for her to address her relationship with him.



* Inverted on ''Series/{{MASH}}''. Major Houlihan has had many friendships and affairs with powerful, successful men. But in the episode "Stars and Stripes" she makes it extremely clear that she never accepted any kind of help from them or from her father, Col. "Howitzer" Houlihan, when it came to her military career. Her dad was a role model to her, but nothing more. She earned her rank through hard work and dedication.

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* Inverted Defied on ''Series/{{MASH}}''. Major Houlihan has had many friendships and affairs with powerful, successful men. But in the episode "Stars and Stripes" she makes it extremely clear that she never accepted any kind of help from them or from her father, Col. "Howitzer" Houlihan, when it came to her military career. Her dad was a role model to her, but nothing more. She earned her rank through hard work and dedication.



** Inverted in one episode where Lisa laments that since her father Homer is kind of an idiot, she fears that she'll ultimately fail in life due to his genes...or something. So, he gathers up relatives from all over the country and finds that the female members of the family, and only the female members, have intelligent, fulfilling careers. Homer and Bart are crestfallen...but then quickly accept the fact that most of the male line are thickheaded idiots. They even participate in a headbutting contest. Yeah, it was a weird episode. One made all the more confusing by the show's NegativeContinuity. Herbert Powell, Homer's half-brother, is a flat out success in business twice over. Also, Homer has proven to be a successful song-writer and Bart has been shown numerous times to [[BrilliantButLazy have potential for success that is usually hindered by his laziness]].



* Inverted in ''WesternAnimation/AvatarTheLastAirbender'': Katara accompanies Aang because she wants to learn waterbending and Sokka comes along because he feels he needs to a) protect his sister and b) help the Avatar defeat the fire nation. In the second season it's completely averted by Mai, Toph, and Ty Lee as all three are expressly defying their family's wishes by going on adventures (though it could be argued that Mai's relationship with Zuko eventually plays this straight). The only case in which this trope is played straight is with [[TheDragon Azula]] who is following in [[BigBad her father's]] footsteps, although even this is pretty downplayed, as for most of the series Azula [[MagnificentBitch is shown to be a much more proactive villain that Ozai.]]
16th Sep '17 1:00:21 PM Eagal
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** Actually partially [[AvertedTrope averted]] with Lulu, as much or even more of a reason for her coldness than the death of Chappu, is from failing as a guardian to protect the life of her first summoner, Lady Ginnem, and Lulu's character development is also in a large part triggered by her resolving her problems with Lady Ginnem, and sending her spirit to rest. This trope is also argubly [[InvertedTrope inverted]] with Seymour, who's path [[spoiler:towards villainy]] was all set, or at least increadibly infuenced by his mother and her sacrifice.
** It's also arguble if Yunalesca even fully counts as trope. Yes, her fame and influece are partly connected to her being the daughter of Yu Yevon, but it also was she who created the method of defeating Sin(creating the Final Aeon), as well as being the first to defeat Sin, as well as had a significant role [[PathOfInspiration in creating and spreading of the Yevonite beliefs]]. Argubly, she was as much important in the forming of Yevonite religion as her father, if not even more so, seeing Yu Yevon [[spoiler: was basically rendered into a mindless entity behind Sin, his "mind" being now closer to computer program, rather than having a reall conciousness for over a millennium.]]
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