History Main / Minmaxing

22nd Sep '16 10:00:20 PM chc232323
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** Subverted: any hiring manager with a week's experience has met enough people whose biggest weakness is "I'm a perfectionist" or "I work too hard" that they will immediately decode your response. What you've really just said is, "One of my weaknesses is I am so full of crap that I think everyone else (including the hiring manager of this company) is too stupid to see through this. I have other weaknesses I'm not discussing." Consider revealing a genuine (but not crippling) weakness and how you have taken steps to confront it. "I sometimes get overwhelmed when four or five tasks are given to me at once, and sometimes I'll forget one. So I carry around a notepad to write them down and use it like a to-do list to make sure I don't make mistakes." Having a weakness and developing counters to prevent it from being exploited is very min-maxy indeed.
22nd Sep '16 9:37:51 PM chc232323
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* More iterations in ''TabletopGame/{{Warhammer 40000}}'' than you can count, and that the designers have spent literally decades trying to balance, such as:

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* More iterations in ''TabletopGame/{{Warhammer 40000}}'' than you can count, and that the designers have spent literally decades trying to balance, such as:balance. It is best to say when the Min-Maxing build was in effect, since many examples will not make sense to newer players. Examples include:


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** Seventh edition has seen Eldar players spam Wraithguard, a unit that is tough to kill and can put down templates of Strength D weapons. What does this mean? The unit has an attack that never misses, can strike multiple enemies, and inflicts shockingly high damage on anything that it hits as long as you don't roll a 1 on a six-sided dice. Strength D weapons instantly kill most infantry and almost always damage vehicles. Their only weaknesses are being vulnerable to big blast templates, short range, and being unable to hit fliers.
15th Sep '16 11:33:46 AM sturmovik
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* The various Naval treaties of the Interwar Period caused no shortage of Min-Maxing when it came to [[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_battleship ship design]]. Because the treaties set strict limits on the number of and weight of ships, signatories spent a great deal of effort trying to work around the rules. One Min-Max technique used by the British and the French was to place all the big guns on the forward part of the ship to shorten the length of the heavy armoured citadel, at the expense of a 360 degree arc of fire. [[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/All_or_nothing_(armor) All or nothing]] armouring schemes were also employed to provide the maximum protection to critical areas with non-critical areas being deemed expendable. Guns were packed into triple and quadruple turrets to further reduce the weight overhead at the expense of redundancy.
21st Jul '16 9:57:57 PM Rynosaur94
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**5th edition is not without the phenomenon either. Warlock and Fighter dips, the Lucky feat, and other silly things get added to characters all the time, though it's not nearly at 3.5 levels.
28th Jun '16 4:58:42 AM KatanaCat
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** For example, Scizor is a Pokémon with an amazing Attack stat and good defenses, but terrible Special Attack and underwhelming Speed. A competitive trainer would choose a Scyther with an Individual Value of 31 (highest possible) in Attack and an Adamant Nature (+Attack, -Special Attack) to evolve into a Scizor. (Since the majority of Pokemon have a preferred attacking stat, most competitively-recommended natures lower either Attack or Special Attack.) After choosing the Scizor, the trainer would have the Scizor defeat certain Pokémon over and over to build up the Scizor's HP and Attack Effort Values. When it's time to battle, the trainer could give the Scizor a Choice Band or Life Orb to make it hit even harder, or an Assault Vest to increase its Special Defense. All of these items restrict Scizor in some way along with increasing its attack power, though not all items work that way: Scizor may also hold Leftovers, or Scizorite to [[SuperMode Mega Evolve]]. Most held items have their benefits weighted against the opportunity cost of losing Leftovers recovery.
** Sometimes, battlers will try to breed a Pokémon with ''bad'' specific Individual Values. Usually it's Speed, and the reason for this is Trick Room and Gyro Ball. The former is a field effect where [[ActionInitiative slower Pokémon move first]], and the latter gains strength the slower the user is than what it's used against. If they're going to get the most out of it, they need to be as slow as possible. Speed-lowering natures are also typically used. Lowered speed can also an advantage when using the moves Payback, Avalanche, Revenge, Metal Burst, U-Turn, Volt Switch, and Baton Pass, along with the ability Analytic. If there's another stat that needs to be lowered, it's Attack; doing so reduces the damage taken from confusion and Foul Play (which is a strong attack that uses the Attack stat of what it's used on to calculate damage, not the user), and is typically applied to Pokémon like Blissey and Wobbuffet (which have abysmal Attack stats but massive HP).
** In the single-player game: while you're advised to make a "balanced team", it's far easier to simply train one single 'mon to be fifteen levels higher than it really should be, and able to one-hit virtually anything you come across. Of course, if you're playing it for multiplayer, this won't get you very far.

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** For example, Scizor is a Pokémon with an amazing Attack stat and good defenses, but terrible Special Attack and underwhelming Speed. A competitive trainer would choose a Scyther with an Individual Value of 31 (highest possible) in Attack and an Adamant Nature (+Attack, -Special Attack) to evolve into a Scizor. (Since the majority of Pokemon have a preferred attacking stat, most competitively-recommended natures lower either Attack or Special Attack.) After choosing the Scizor, the trainer would have the Scizor defeat certain Pokémon over and over to build up the Scizor's HP and Attack Effort Values. When it's time to battle, the trainer could give the Scizor a Choice Band or Life Orb to make it hit even harder, or an Assault Vest to increase its Special Defense. All of these items restrict Scizor in some way along with increasing its attack power, though not all items work that way: Scizor may also hold Leftovers, Leftovers to gradually heal itself, or Scizorite to [[SuperMode Mega Evolve]]. Most held items have their benefits weighted weighed against the opportunity cost of losing Leftovers recovery.
** Sometimes, battlers will try to breed a Pokémon with ''bad'' specific Individual Values. Usually it's Speed, and the reason for this is Trick Room and Gyro Ball. The former is a field effect where [[ActionInitiative slower Pokémon move first]], and the latter gains latter's strength the is based on how much slower the user is than what it's used against.the opponent. If they're going to get the most out of it, they need to be as slow as possible. Speed-lowering natures are also typically used. Lowered speed can also an advantage when using the moves Payback, Avalanche, Revenge, Metal Burst, U-Turn, Volt Switch, and Baton Pass, along with the ability Analytic. If there's another stat that needs to be lowered, it's Attack; doing so reduces the damage taken from confusion and Foul Play (which is a strong attack that uses the Attack stat of what it's used on to calculate damage, not the user), and is typically applied to Pokémon like [[StoneWall Blissey and Wobbuffet Wobbuffet]] (which have abysmal Attack stats but massive HP).
** In the single-player game: while you're advised to make a "balanced team", it's it can be far easier to [[SoloCharacterRun simply train one single 'mon to be fifteen levels higher than it really should be, be]], and able to one-hit virtually anything you come across. Of course, if you're playing it for multiplayer, this won't get you very far.
24th May '16 3:02:22 AM Grudgeal
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** Shadowrun's character creation system is generally built for this sort of playstyle. In ''Shadowrun'', more successes is always a good thing (especially in physical combat), as unlike in D&D it's not a "succeed/fail" duology but "fail/barely succeed/increased degrees of success" gradient. Also, character creation is points-based, not class-based, so your ability to toy with your character's capabilities are much better. On a whole, ''Shadowrun'' veterans recommend making a character who is the best that he/she can be at his/her role, instead of trying to make a JackOfAllStats -- sure, your troll melee adept can't open the right side of a first aid kit, read beyond a grade school level or solve any problem not involving "hit things really hard", but that's what the other players are there for.
24th Apr '16 11:25:57 AM Temporary14
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*** Each level the player gains grants a number of "skill-up" points. The number of points you gain is dependent on the character's Intelligence stat, so many would-be min-maxers treat it as the OneStatToRuleThemAll and max it out as early as possible so as to maximize skill gains. {{Subverted}}: high Intelligence early on won't make a character much stronger by end-game. Many skills are nearly useless. Every skill, at a minimum, can be raised to 87 without investing a single skill point or taking a feat or tagging a skill. Two can be raised to 100 and Speech can be raised to 97. It is literally impossible to lower Intelligence enough to make it absolutely impossible not to end up with 10's in all SPECIAL and 100's in all skills (the useless ones taken for the sake of completion). Then again, a high Intelligence early on will allow the character to max out their useful skills very early, without gaining a huge number of levels, using DLC, or hunting down hundreds of skill books, so you might say that Intelligence is the ideal stat of BrilliantButLazy characters. Doing a "Rivet City run" to grab the Intelligence bobblehead as soon as possible after leaving the tutorial is still ''de rigeur'' for min-maxers, as there's no down side to doing so other than the bother of avoiding encounters on the way there.

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*** Each level the player gains grants a number of "skill-up" points. The number of points you gain is dependent on the character's Intelligence stat, so many would-be min-maxers treat it as the OneStatToRuleThemAll and max it out as early as possible so as to maximize skill gains. {{Subverted}}: high Intelligence early on won't make a character much stronger by end-game. Many skills are nearly useless. Every skill, at a minimum, can be raised to 87 without investing a single skill point or taking a feat or tagging a skill. Two can be raised to 100 and Speech can be raised to 97. It is literally impossible to lower Intelligence enough to make it absolutely impossible not to end up with prevent the PC from eventually getting 10's in all SPECIAL and 100's in all skills (the useless ones taken for the sake of completion).skills. Then again, a high Intelligence early on will allow the character to max out their useful skills very early, without gaining a huge number of levels, using DLC, or hunting down hundreds of skill books, so you might say that Intelligence is the ideal stat of BrilliantButLazy characters. Doing a "Rivet City run" to grab the Intelligence bobblehead as soon as possible after leaving the tutorial is still ''de rigeur'' for min-maxers, as there's no down side to doing so other than the bother of avoiding encounters on the way there.
24th Apr '16 11:24:24 AM Temporary14
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*** Each level the player gains grants a number of "skill-up" points. The number of points you gain is dependent on the character's Intelligence stat, so many would-be min-maxers treat it as the OneStatToRuleThemAll and max it out as early as possible so as to maximize skill gains. {{Subverted}}: high Intelligence early on won't make a character much stronger by end-game. Many skills are nearly useless. Every skill, at a minimum, can be raised to 87 without investing a single skill point or taking a feat or tagging a skill. Two can be raised to 100 and Speech can be raised to 97. It is literally impossible to lower Intelligence enough to make it absolutely impossible not to end up with 10's in all SPECIAL and 100's in all skills (the useless ones taken for the sake of completion). Then again, a high Intelligence early on will allow the character to max out their useful skills very early, without gaining a huge amount of levels, using DLC, or hunting down a large number of skill books, so you might say that Intelligence is the ideal stat of BrilliantButLazy characters. Doing a "Rivet City run" to grab the Intelligence bobblehead as soon as possible after leaving the tutorial is still ''de rigeur'' for min-maxers, as there's no down side to doing so other than the bother of avoiding encounters on the way there.

to:

*** Each level the player gains grants a number of "skill-up" points. The number of points you gain is dependent on the character's Intelligence stat, so many would-be min-maxers treat it as the OneStatToRuleThemAll and max it out as early as possible so as to maximize skill gains. {{Subverted}}: high Intelligence early on won't make a character much stronger by end-game. Many skills are nearly useless. Every skill, at a minimum, can be raised to 87 without investing a single skill point or taking a feat or tagging a skill. Two can be raised to 100 and Speech can be raised to 97. It is literally impossible to lower Intelligence enough to make it absolutely impossible not to end up with 10's in all SPECIAL and 100's in all skills (the useless ones taken for the sake of completion). Then again, a high Intelligence early on will allow the character to max out their useful skills very early, without gaining a huge amount number of levels, using DLC, or hunting down a large number hundreds of skill books, so you might say that Intelligence is the ideal stat of BrilliantButLazy characters. Doing a "Rivet City run" to grab the Intelligence bobblehead as soon as possible after leaving the tutorial is still ''de rigeur'' for min-maxers, as there's no down side to doing so other than the bother of avoiding encounters on the way there.
7th Apr '16 3:27:03 PM Baconfry
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* ''VideoGame/MapleStory'' does this with certain builds. While normally it is very much still a min maxer's game (A mage for example can not put one point into dex or strength, and no one ever puts points into MP or HP) There are dexless and luckless builds involve using stat increasing items for stat deficiency.

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* ''VideoGame/MapleStory'' does this with certain builds. While normally it is very much still a min maxer's game (A mage for example can not put one point into dex DEX or strength, STR, and no one ever puts points into MP or HP) There HP), there are dexless and luckless builds involve using stat increasing items for stat deficiency.deficiency.
** In the older versions of MapleStory, the INT stat dictated the amount of MP gained for each level or AP point placed into MP. This MP could be transferred to HP by spending real-world money on AP resets. What this meant was that all classes could gain more HP than normal by adding or equipping INT, accumulating extra MP, and transferring it into HP. Though this method, called HP washing, was ridiculously expensive and would make a character much weaker for a while, it was the only way for certain classes to survive high-level boss fights.



** For example, Scizor is a Pokémon with an amazing Attack stat and good defenses, but terrible Special Attack and underwhelming Speed. A competitive trainer would choose a Scyther with an Individual Value of 31 (highest possible) in Attack and an Adamant Nature (+Attack, -Special Attack) to evolve into a Scizor. After choosing the Scizor, the trainer would have the Scizor defeat certain Pokémon over and over to build up the Scizor's HP and Attack Effort Values. When it's time to battle, the trainer would give the Scizor a Choice Band or Life Orb to make it hit even harder, an Assault Vest to increase its Special Defense, or a Scizorite to make it [[SuperMode Mega Evolve]] and increase its stats. All of these items restrict Scizor in some way along with increasing its attack power.
** Sometimes, battlers will try to breed a Pokémon with ''bad'' Individual Values. Usually it's Speed, and the reason for this is Trick Room and Gyro Ball. The former is a field effect where [[ActionInitiative slower Pokémon move first]], and the latter gains strength the slower the user is than what it's used against. If they're going to get the most out of it, they need to be as slow as possible. Speed-lowering natures are also typically used. If there's another stat that needs to be bad, it's Attack; doing so lessens the damage from confusion and Foul Play (which is a strong attack that uses the Attack stat of what it's used on to calculate damage, not the user), and is typically applied to Pokémon like Blissey and Wobbuffet (which have abysmal Attack stats but massive HP).

to:

** For example, Scizor is a Pokémon with an amazing Attack stat and good defenses, but terrible Special Attack and underwhelming Speed. A competitive trainer would choose a Scyther with an Individual Value of 31 (highest possible) in Attack and an Adamant Nature (+Attack, -Special Attack) to evolve into a Scizor. (Since the majority of Pokemon have a preferred attacking stat, most competitively-recommended natures lower either Attack or Special Attack.) After choosing the Scizor, the trainer would have the Scizor defeat certain Pokémon over and over to build up the Scizor's HP and Attack Effort Values. When it's time to battle, the trainer would could give the Scizor a Choice Band or Life Orb to make it hit even harder, or an Assault Vest to increase its Special Defense, or a Scizorite to make it [[SuperMode Mega Evolve]] and increase its stats. Defense. All of these items restrict Scizor in some way along with increasing its attack power.
power, though not all items work that way: Scizor may also hold Leftovers, or Scizorite to [[SuperMode Mega Evolve]]. Most held items have their benefits weighted against the opportunity cost of losing Leftovers recovery.
** Sometimes, battlers will try to breed a Pokémon with ''bad'' specific Individual Values. Usually it's Speed, and the reason for this is Trick Room and Gyro Ball. The former is a field effect where [[ActionInitiative slower Pokémon move first]], and the latter gains strength the slower the user is than what it's used against. If they're going to get the most out of it, they need to be as slow as possible. Speed-lowering natures are also typically used. Lowered speed can also an advantage when using the moves Payback, Avalanche, Revenge, Metal Burst, U-Turn, Volt Switch, and Baton Pass, along with the ability Analytic. If there's another stat that needs to be bad, lowered, it's Attack; doing so lessens reduces the damage taken from confusion and Foul Play (which is a strong attack that uses the Attack stat of what it's used on to calculate damage, not the user), and is typically applied to Pokémon like Blissey and Wobbuffet (which have abysmal Attack stats but massive HP).
3rd Apr '16 2:43:13 AM TARINunit9
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** Most major characters in ''[=OotS=]'' are baseline or hilariously badly constructed, though. Durkon the cleric is stuck being a healbot (albeit not entirely by choice). Vaarsuvius is a wizard that specializes in what is considered the worst school in the game while banning two of the most powerful. Roy is a fighter who doesn't use Intelligence as his DumpStat, and also has no weapon proficiency in anything other than two-handed swords. Belkar is a halfling (which comes with strength penalties) Ranger who specializes in DualWielding, usually considered an ineffective fighting style due to all the accuracy penalties, and with insufficient wisdom to cast spells or track worth a damn. Oddly the [[TheDitz ditzy]] SpoonyBard Elan is the one with the most optimization, taking a PrestigeClass to base nearly everything he does on a single very high attribute. This was used as a gag since his EvilTwin Nale achieved a less effective version of the same thing by taking levels in Fighter, Sorcerer, and Rogue (all of which rely on different base stats) due to his ComplexityAddiction.

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** Most major characters in ''[=OotS=]'' are baseline or hilariously badly constructed, though. Durkon the cleric is the most average, only losing out on his highest potential because he's stuck being a healbot (albeit not entirely by choice). Vaarsuvius is a wizard that specializes in what is considered the worst school in the game while banning two of the most powerful. Roy is a fighter who doesn't use Intelligence as his DumpStat, and also has no weapon proficiency in anything other than two-handed swords.swords -- powerful when he has his Ancestral Relic, terrible with anything else. Belkar is a halfling (which comes with strength penalties) Ranger who specializes in DualWielding, usually considered an ineffective fighting style due to all the accuracy penalties, and with insufficient wisdom to cast spells or track worth a damn. Oddly the [[TheDitz ditzy]] SpoonyBard Elan is the one with the most optimization, with a good build as a SpoonyBard, before taking a PrestigeClass to base nearly everything he does on a single very high attribute. This was used as a gag since his EvilTwin Nale achieved a less effective version of the same thing by taking levels in Fighter, Sorcerer, and Rogue (all of which rely on different base stats) due to his ComplexityAddiction.



** While it's not immediately apparent, and almost certainly wasn't intentional, Malack is also terribly optimized as a result of [[spoiler:being a vampire lizardfolk. What it means is that he has a constitution bonus that is negated because vampires don't have constitution. He has a bonus to his climb and swim skils; the first is useless because vampires get Spider Climb for free, the second unusable because immersion in water kills vampires. He has an immense strength bonus and prefers to avoid physical combat. He's a primary spellcaster with a level adjustment of eight, and the benefits of vampirism are vastly less than the power gained by another eight levels of cleric. On the other hand, when he goes all out he's an [[RuleOfScary enormous pale snake who can crush you with his coils, drain your life energy, and drink your blood all at once.]]]]

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** While it's not immediately apparent, and almost certainly wasn't intentional, Malack is also terribly optimized as a result of [[spoiler:being a vampire lizardfolk. What it means is that he has a constitution bonus that is negated because vampires don't have constitution. He has a bonus to his climb and swim skils; skills; the first is useless because vampires get Spider Climb for free, the second unusable because immersion in water kills vampires. He has an immense strength bonus and knows spells for life drain upon skin contact, yet prefers to avoid physical combat. He's a primary spellcaster with a level adjustment of eight, and the benefits of vampirism are vastly less than the power gained by another eight levels of cleric. On the other hand, when he goes all out actually decides to ''use'' that strength bonus we mentioned he's an [[RuleOfScary enormous pale snake who can crush you with his coils, drain your life energy, and drink your blood all at once.]]]]
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