History Main / LittleUselessGun

4th May '17 3:08:49 AM Kadorhal
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* The Israeli Defense Force once supplied its troops with a Ruger 10/22 as a "less than lethal" sniper weapon. Reality, a judge and a number of dead bodies eventually forced them to remove the classification.

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* The Israeli Defense Force once supplied its troops with a Ruger 10/22 as a "less than lethal" sniper weapon. Reality, a judge judge, and a number of dead bodies corpses made with this "less than lethal" weapon eventually forced them to remove the classification.



** Especially since the goal of a gun fight is not to ensure your attacker dies, but to ensure ''you'' live. It doesn't really matter if the bad guy dies if he ends you in a brutal fashion before finally dying. The solution is to keep shooting them until they stop. In a defensive situation, it behooves you not to have to wait an hour for your assailant to bleed to death. This is in large part why (in the USA at least) police departments stopped using the .38 as their service weapon in the early '90s. It was not so much for reasons of lethality, for 9x19 and .38 Special are very similar in terms of actual performance, so much as it was that modern 9mm pistols offered wonderful advantages in terms of magazine size (an average of 6 shots vs an average of 15 shots), ease of use (sights and triggers tend to be more user friendly on pistols), and companies like Glock and Beretta were just hurling the things at them (which made the damn things irresistible bargains). As Massad Ayoob wrote in his book ''In The Gravest Extreme'', the purpose of using a defensive gun is to stop someone from hurting you. Any bullet can kill someone, but it can't reliably stop them.
** That said however, getting shot in a not-immediately-lethal fashion will still make your average would-be robber reconsider their options (not to mention hurt like hell), so smaller calibres can be surprisingly effective as pure self-defence weapons. Don't ''count'' on this, though: due to stress of the situation and adrenaline, you might well kill them by emptying the magazine OR they might retaliate if you wound them.

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** Especially since the goal of a gun fight is not to ensure your attacker dies, but to ensure ''you'' live. It doesn't really matter if the bad guy dies if he ends you in a brutal fashion before finally dying.beforehand. The solution is to keep shooting them until they stop. In a defensive situation, it behooves you not to have to wait an hour for your assailant to bleed to death. This is in large part why (in the USA at least) police departments stopped using the .38 as their service weapon in the early '90s. It was not so much for reasons of lethality, for 9x19 and .38 Special are very similar in terms of actual performance, so much as it was that modern 9mm pistols offered wonderful advantages in terms of magazine size (an average of 6 shots vs an average of 15 shots), ease of use (sights and triggers tend to be more user friendly on pistols), and companies like Glock and Beretta were just hurling the things at them (which made the damn things irresistible bargains). As Massad Ayoob wrote in his book ''In The Gravest Extreme'', the purpose of using a defensive gun is to stop someone from hurting you. Any bullet can kill someone, but it can't reliably stop them.
** That said however, getting shot in a not-immediately-lethal fashion will still hurt like hell and make your average would-be robber reconsider their options (not to mention hurt like hell), options, so smaller calibres can be surprisingly effective as pure self-defence weapons. Don't ''count'' on this, though: due to stress of the situation and adrenaline, you might well kill them by reflexively emptying the magazine OR magazine, ''or'' they might retaliate if you wound them.



** When it comes to factors affecting lethality, there's a clear pattern. Hit location and bullet path are more important than velocity, and velocity is more important than caliber. However, the problem is an injury can be lethal days later, as the injured person enters [[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multiple_organ_dysfunction_syndrome Multiple Organ Dysfunction Syndrome]], pneumothoracic tension, cardiac tamponade, organ failure, or secondary infection, especially in abdominal injury. Additionally, permanent disability is also best predicted based on what was hit. The problem is that doesn't mean that that fatal injury will stop an aggressor from shooting back immediately after your bullet has dealt the lethal injury.
* All the above notwithstanding, the [[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High_Standard_HDM High Standard HDM]] and similar firearms are still widely used by Special Forces; .22LR has almost negligible recoil and muzzle climb compared to common calibres for service sidearms, it's very easy to reduce its sound signature and it can be obtained in every country in the world.

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** When it comes to factors affecting lethality, there's a clear pattern. Hit location and bullet path are more important than velocity, and velocity is more important than caliber. However, the problem is an a lethal injury can be lethal days may only actually kill a person ''days'' later, as the injured person enters [[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multiple_organ_dysfunction_syndrome Multiple Organ Dysfunction Syndrome]], pneumothoracic tension, cardiac tamponade, organ failure, or secondary infection, especially in abdominal injury. Additionally, permanent disability is also best predicted based on what was hit. The problem is that This doesn't mean that that fatal injury will stop an aggressor from shooting back immediately after your bullet has dealt the lethal injury.
* All the above notwithstanding, the [[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High_Standard_HDM High Standard HDM]] and similar firearms are still widely used by Special Forces; .22LR has almost negligible recoil and muzzle climb compared to common calibres for service sidearms, it's very easy to reduce its sound signature signature, and it can be obtained in every country in the world.



* An interview with a veteran Australian policewoman had her saying how female officers used to be trained on a .22 automatic 'ladies gun' instead of the issue .38 special revolver. The weapon was useless not because of its low calibre, but because [[ReliablyUnreliableGuns it kept jamming all the time]] ([[TruthInTelevision Many .22 autoloading pistols are very finicky about the ammunition you feed them]]).

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* An interview with a veteran Australian policewoman had her saying how female officers used to be trained on a .22 automatic 'ladies gun' instead of the issue .38 special revolver. The weapon was useless not because of its low calibre, but because [[ReliablyUnreliableGuns it kept jamming all the time]] ([[TruthInTelevision Many .many .22 autoloading pistols are very finicky about the ammunition you feed them]]).



* Apparently the reasoning behind the [[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American-180 American-180]] CoolGuns/{{submachine gun|s}}, a .22LR weapon that fitted magazines carrying anywhere between 165 to 275 rounds, and which fired them at about 1,200 rounds per minute, but which was designed to be a ''riot control'' weapon. Considering the gun can easily chew through a solid concrete block in a matter of seconds, "control" is ''one'' way of putting what it can do to human targets. Hard to tell whether this is a more or less sane approach than the nearly-concurrent Soviet KS-23, a riot control shotgun made from the rejected barrels for [[{{BFG}} 23mm anti-aircraft guns]].

to:

* Apparently the reasoning behind the [[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American-180 American-180]] CoolGuns/{{submachine gun|s}}, a .22LR weapon that fitted magazines carrying anywhere between 165 to 275 rounds, and which fired them at about 1,200 rounds per minute, but which was designed to be a ''riot control'' weapon. Considering the gun can easily chew through a solid concrete block in a matter of seconds, "control" is ''one'' way of putting what it can do to human targets. targets - in fact, much was also made of its ability to chew through body armor by simply [[MoreDakka hammering on it until it gave way]]. Hard to tell whether this is a more or less sane approach to riot control than the nearly-concurrent Soviet KS-23, a riot control shotgun shotgun/carbine made from the rejected barrels for [[{{BFG}} 23mm anti-aircraft guns]].
3rd May '17 10:23:24 PM Kadorhal
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* ''VideoGame/KnightsOfTheOldRepublic I'' and ''[[VideoGame/KnightsOfTheOldRepublicIITheSithLords II]]'' gave enemies health based on the ''TabletopGame/DungeonsAndDragons''-based Franchise/StarWars d20 RPG, which meant that the pitiful damage done by hold-out blasters and even the blaster pistol would wind up useless very, very quickly. In the first game, lightsabers and force powers overshadowed blasters so much that non-Jedi party members had little role in combat, while in the second game, a modified HandCannon or BFG could be viable, if suboptimal, and required spending multiple points on gimmicky Force powers to make up for your own inability to deflect blaster bolts and the penalties to trying to shoot people in melee range.

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* ''VideoGame/KnightsOfTheOldRepublic I'' and ''[[VideoGame/KnightsOfTheOldRepublicIITheSithLords II]]'' gave enemies health based on the ''TabletopGame/DungeonsAndDragons''-based Franchise/StarWars d20 RPG, which meant that the pitiful damage done by hold-out blasters and even the blaster pistol would wind up useless very, very quickly. In the first game, lightsabers and force powers overshadowed blasters so much that non-Jedi party members had little role in combat, while in combat. In the second game, a modified HandCannon or BFG could ''could'' be viable, if suboptimal, and but it required spending multiple points on gimmicky Force powers to make up for your own inability (such as the ability to deflect blaster bolts fire with your hands) and the penalties to trying to shoot people abilities (such as a penalty reduction for shooting enemies who are in melee range. range) to make up for inherent disadvantages that lightsabers (or even regular melee weapons) don't have, and even with all of these would still be suboptimal.
2nd May '17 7:24:35 PM Kadorhal
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* ''VideoGame/KnightsOfTheOldRepublic I'' and ''[[VideoGame/KnightsOfTheOldRepublicIITheSithLords II]]'' gave enemies health based on the ''TabletopGame/DungeonsAndDragons''-based Franchise/StarWars d20 RPG, which meant that the pitiful damage done by hold-out blasters and even the blaster pistol would wind up useless very, very quickly. In the first game, lightsabers and force powers overshadowed blasters so much that non-Jedi party members had little role in combat, while in the second game, a modified HandCannon or BFG could be viable, if suboptimal.

to:

* ''VideoGame/KnightsOfTheOldRepublic I'' and ''[[VideoGame/KnightsOfTheOldRepublicIITheSithLords II]]'' gave enemies health based on the ''TabletopGame/DungeonsAndDragons''-based Franchise/StarWars d20 RPG, which meant that the pitiful damage done by hold-out blasters and even the blaster pistol would wind up useless very, very quickly. In the first game, lightsabers and force powers overshadowed blasters so much that non-Jedi party members had little role in combat, while in the second game, a modified HandCannon or BFG could be viable, if suboptimal.suboptimal, and required spending multiple points on gimmicky Force powers to make up for your own inability to deflect blaster bolts and the penalties to trying to shoot people in melee range.



* ''VideoGame/CallOfDutyBlackOps2'' manages this with a revolver, of all things, with the Executioner. Based on an unproduced 28-gauge version of the Taurus Judge shotgun-revolver, it's presumably intended to combine the upsides of a pistol (such as quick times to draw and aim, less slowed movement when aiming, etc) with the extreme power and pellet spread of a shotgun. The problem here is that [[ShortRangeShotgun shotguns are harmless past ten feet]] in the ''VideoGame/CallOfDuty'' series. It has even more extreme power at close range than the other handguns, enough so that it's the only one capable of killing a man in a single shot, but that power comes at the cost that A) said power is only at its fullest at such close range that you may as well just use your knife and achieve the same result, and B) it's also not possible to even CherryTap anyone further away than spitting distance.

to:

* ''VideoGame/CallOfDutyBlackOps2'' manages this with a revolver, of all things, with the Executioner. Based on an unproduced 28-gauge version of the Taurus Judge shotgun-revolver, it's presumably intended to combine the upsides of a pistol (such as quick times to draw and aim, less slowed movement when aiming, etc) with the extreme power and pellet spread of a shotgun. The This does increase its power to even more extremes, enough so that it's the only pistol in the game that can kill a man in a single shot, but the problem here is that [[ShortRangeShotgun shotguns are harmless past ten feet]] basically melee weapons]] in the ''VideoGame/CallOfDuty'' series. It has even more extreme power at series - a one-shot kill requires you to be close range than the other handguns, enough so that it's to the only one capable of killing a man in a single shot, but that power comes at the cost that A) said power is only at its fullest at such close range target that you may could just as well just use your knife instead and achieve the same result, and B) being even a few inches further will require the entire five-round cylinder to kill someone. Plus, this also means it's also not possible to even CherryTap anyone further away than spitting distance.cherry-tap people from beyond about a foot like you could with the other pistols, either, because like the full-size shotguns, the pellets disappear at their maximum range.
2nd May '17 5:34:28 PM Kadorhal
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* KnightsOfTheOldRepublic I and II gave enemies health based on the ''TabletopGame/DungeonsAndDragons''-based StarWars d20 RPG, which meant that the pitiful damage done by hold-out blasters and even the blaster pistol would wind up useless very, very quickly. In the first game, lightsabers and force powers overshadowed blasters so much that non-Jedi party members had little role in combat, while in the second game, a modified HandCannon or BFG could be viable, if suboptimal.

to:

* KnightsOfTheOldRepublic I ''VideoGame/KnightsOfTheOldRepublic I'' and II ''[[VideoGame/KnightsOfTheOldRepublicIITheSithLords II]]'' gave enemies health based on the ''TabletopGame/DungeonsAndDragons''-based StarWars Franchise/StarWars d20 RPG, which meant that the pitiful damage done by hold-out blasters and even the blaster pistol would wind up useless very, very quickly. In the first game, lightsabers and force powers overshadowed blasters so much that non-Jedi party members had little role in combat, while in the second game, a modified HandCannon or BFG could be viable, if suboptimal.


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* ''VideoGame/CallOfDutyBlackOps2'' manages this with a revolver, of all things, with the Executioner. Based on an unproduced 28-gauge version of the Taurus Judge shotgun-revolver, it's presumably intended to combine the upsides of a pistol (such as quick times to draw and aim, less slowed movement when aiming, etc) with the extreme power and pellet spread of a shotgun. The problem here is that [[ShortRangeShotgun shotguns are harmless past ten feet]] in the ''VideoGame/CallOfDuty'' series. It has even more extreme power at close range than the other handguns, enough so that it's the only one capable of killing a man in a single shot, but that power comes at the cost that A) said power is only at its fullest at such close range that you may as well just use your knife and achieve the same result, and B) it's also not possible to even CherryTap anyone further away than spitting distance.
11th Apr '17 1:55:20 PM Ragitsu
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** In ''TabletopGame/{{GURPS}}'' the .22 Derringer has almost no chance of killing someone unless you shoot them a ''dozen'' times (or hit them [[SubsystemDamage in the Eye, Skull, or Vitals]]), although [[CriticalHit an incredibly lucky shot]] could be dangerous. Of course, ''with'' the bleeding rules, it is possible to die from sheer blood loss...though that takes some time.

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** In ''TabletopGame/{{GURPS}}'' ''TabletopGame/{{GURPS}}'', the .22 Derringer Short round has almost no chance of killing someone unless you shoot them a ''dozen'' times (or hit them [[SubsystemDamage in the Eye, Skull, or Vitals]]), although [[CriticalHit an incredibly lucky shot]] could be dangerous. Of course, ''with'' the bleeding rules, it is possible to die from sheer blood loss...though that takes some time.
11th Apr '17 1:53:08 PM Ragitsu
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** In ''TabletopGame/{{GURPS}}'' the .22 Derringer has almost no chance of killing someone unless you shoot them a ''dozen'' times (or hit them [[SubsystemDamage in the Eye, Skull, or Vitals]]), although [[CriticalHitan incredibly lucky shot]] could be dangerous.

to:

** In ''TabletopGame/{{GURPS}}'' the .22 Derringer has almost no chance of killing someone unless you shoot them a ''dozen'' times (or hit them [[SubsystemDamage in the Eye, Skull, or Vitals]]), although [[CriticalHitan [[CriticalHit an incredibly lucky shot]] could be dangerous.dangerous. Of course, ''with'' the bleeding rules, it is possible to die from sheer blood loss...though that takes some time.
11th Apr '17 1:51:58 PM Ragitsu
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** In ''TabletopGame/{{GURPS}}'' the .22 Derringer has almost no chance of killing someone unless you shoot them a ''dozen'' times (or hit them [[SubsystemDamage in the brain]]), although an incredibly lucky shot could be dangerous.

to:

** In ''TabletopGame/{{GURPS}}'' the .22 Derringer has almost no chance of killing someone unless you shoot them a ''dozen'' times (or hit them [[SubsystemDamage in the brain]]), Eye, Skull, or Vitals]]), although an [[CriticalHitan incredibly lucky shot shot]] could be dangerous.
25th Mar '17 11:26:50 PM Miracle@StOlaf
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* Apparently the reasoning behind the [[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American-180 American-180]] CoolGuns/{{submachine gun|s}}, a .22LR weapon that fitted magazines carrying anywhere between 165 to 275 rounds, and which fired them at about 1,200 rounds per minute, but which was designed to be a ''riot control'' weapon. Hard to tell whether this is a more or less sane approach than the nearly-concurrent Soviet KS-23, a riot control shotgun made from the rejected barrels for [[{{BFG}} 23mm anti-aircraft guns]].

to:

* Apparently the reasoning behind the [[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American-180 American-180]] CoolGuns/{{submachine gun|s}}, a .22LR weapon that fitted magazines carrying anywhere between 165 to 275 rounds, and which fired them at about 1,200 rounds per minute, but which was designed to be a ''riot control'' weapon. Considering the gun can easily chew through a solid concrete block in a matter of seconds, "control" is ''one'' way of putting what it can do to human targets. Hard to tell whether this is a more or less sane approach than the nearly-concurrent Soviet KS-23, a riot control shotgun made from the rejected barrels for [[{{BFG}} 23mm anti-aircraft guns]].
17th Mar '17 4:00:22 PM Kadorhal
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-->"Now, that is a big gun."\\
"Yeah, and that's a problem."\\
"...Why...is that...a problem?"\\
"You go into combat with that pecker sticking out of your turret, the enemy is going to unload on you with everything they've got."
* Inverted by ''Film/TaxiDriver''. Travis buys four guns, one .44 Magnum revolver and three smaller pistols. The guy selling him the guns tells him that the .44 is AwesomeButImpractical and, indeed, Travis only manages to use it to blow a man's hand off while his actual kills are made with the smaller guns.

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-->"Now, that is -->"That's one hell of a big gun.cannon."\\
"Yeah, and that's "That's a problem."\\
"...Why...is that...a problem?"\\
Why?"\\
"You go into combat out in a battlefield with that this pecker sticking out of your turret, and the enemy is going to unload on you with everything they've all they got."
* Inverted by ''Film/TaxiDriver''. Travis buys four guns, one .44 Magnum revolver and three smaller pistols. The guy selling him the guns tells him that the .44 is AwesomeButImpractical and, indeed, Travis only manages to use it to blow a man's hand off off, while his actual kills are made with the smaller guns.



* In the Creator/StanleyKubrick movie of ''{{Lolita}}'', a drunk Claire Quilty giggles over the darlin' little gun Humbert is about to kill him with. [[RasputinianDeath It takes several shots to do so, too]]. Quilty's FamousLastWords are a petulant, "Ow, that hurts!"

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* In the Creator/StanleyKubrick movie of ''{{Lolita}}'', ''Literature/{{Lolita}}'', a drunk Claire Quilty giggles over the darlin' little gun Humbert is about to kill him with. [[RasputinianDeath It takes several shots to do so, too]]. Quilty's FamousLastWords are a petulant, "Ow, that hurts!"
24th Feb '17 7:54:24 PM Wuz
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* ''VideoGame/Battlefield1'' has the [[JokeWeapon Kolibri Pistol]] (see the RealLife section below). It's so small that the PlayerCharacter has to hold it with only their thumb and forefinger. [[CherryTapping Also, it takes about four headshots to kill someone]]. However, it becomes a LethalJokeItem [[DifficultButAwesome in hands of an experienced player]], even [[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dg8c1IUZMuc it can be a deadly combination while shooting explosives placed on top of a blimp!]]

to:

* ''VideoGame/Battlefield1'' has the [[JokeWeapon Kolibri Pistol]] (see the RealLife section below). It's so small that the PlayerCharacter has to hold it with only their thumb and forefinger. [[CherryTapping Also, it takes about four headshots to kill someone]]. However, it becomes a LethalJokeItem [[DifficultButAwesome in hands of an experienced player]], even [[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dg8c1IUZMuc it can be a deadly combination while shooting explosives placed on top of a blimp!]]
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