History Main / JewsLoveToArgue

Finally, the rabbi decided to visit a one hundred year old member of the synagogue who was living in a nursing home. He took a delegation from each of the arguing sides with him to see the oldest member of the "shul". "Now, tell us," said the rabbi, "what is our tradition?" "Should we stand during the Shema?" "No," said the old man. "That is not our tradition." "Well, then," said the rabbi, "should we sit during the Shema?" "No," the old man, "that is not our tradition." "But we need to know what to do," said the rabbi, "because our congregation members are fighting among each other." "That," said the oldest member of the congregation, "that is our tradition." (This version of the joke [[http://jbuff.com/c110101.htm from here.]])

*** It also ends up in [[UsefulNotes/{{Christianity}} Christian tradition]]: a good part of Literature/TheFourGospels records UsefulNotes/{{Jesus}} arguing with Pharisees, and even with his own disciples, about the correct interpretations and applications of the Law of Moses. In turn, the Literature/ActsOfTheApostles and the Epistles involve Paul arguing with other Jewish converts over whether gentile converts have to keep Torah, and the apostles getting into scraps with the Sanhedrin over whether it's permissible to preach in the name of Jesus.

[[caption-width-right:193:[-And they argue with ''[[{{God}} anyone]]''.[softreturn][softreturn]''Really? '''This''' is the best picture you could come up with?''-] ]]

** As recorded in the Talmud, there's also a story of Rabbi Eliezer ben Hyrcanus, a prominent (and ''extremely'' conservative) Roman era rabbi, trying to convince the Sanhedrin that he was in the right about a particular kind of oven being impervious to Levitical uncleanness. Even when overruled, he managed to call on various signs from the natural world (trees, a stream, the beams of the Sanhedrin building) to show he was in the right. Each time, the Sanhedrin ''dismissed the sign'' as the sign-bearer do not innately have the qualifications to comment on Jewish law.[[note]] In Jewish tradition, arguments must be won through logical debate, not miracles, under the grounds that lots of people, even non-Jews, can do (or appear to do) miracles [[/note]]. Finally, Eliezer beseeched ''God himself'' to step in...which he ''did'', identifying Eliezer as correct about the oven being tamei-proof. Cue the Sanhedrin head ''rebuking God for this'', even quoting Deuteronomy to the effect that the demands of the law put jurisdiction ''only'' among the rabbis; "it is not in the heavens". Let that sink in; the rabbis ''[[RefugeInAudacity dismissed]] '''[[DidYouJustPunchOutCthulhu God]]''' [[RefugeInAudacity for overstepping his legal bounds]]''. Best part? Immediately afterwards, at the throne of Heaven, God was ''laughing with delight'', saying "My children have defeated me, my children have defeated me!".

[[folder:Real Life]]
* While not ''quite'' BloodOnTheDebateFloor, political debates in the Knesset (the Israeli Parliament) can get ''quite'' heated. First of all, the elections system is purely proportional and second of all what vote threshold there is, is usually nominal, so any party that gets 2% or more of the nationwide vote gets seats in the Knesset. Add to that the WeAreStrugglingTogether on the left in general and the myriad ethnic and religious divisions of Israeli society (Ashkenazim vs. Sephardim, recent immigrants vs. Sabras, Russian descendant people vs. everyone else...) and Israeli parliamentary debates fit this trope to a t.
* A number of public religious debates were held between European Jews and Christians during the Middle Ages. The Disputation of Barcelona, held before the King of Aragon himself, featured a rabbi arguing against a formerly Jewish Dominican friar. The rabbi impressed the Christian king with his arguments so much that he was awarded 300 gold coins for presenting "an unjust cause so nobly defended."
* At the time of the [[TheWarOnTerror American invasion of Afghanistan]], there were [[https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/afghanistan/1364310/The-last-two-Jews-in-Kabul-fight-like-cat-and-dog.html two Jews left in Kabul, Afghanistan's capital city]], Ishaq Levin and Zablon Simintov. They were not on speaking terms, feuding over a [[MacGuffin 500 year Torah scroll worth 1.3 million pounds]], which the Taliban had locked away in an attempt to get them to reconcile. In an attempt to win the fight, they'd taken turns accusing the other of being Mossad spies. [[https://www.theguardian.com/world/2005/may/08/afghanistan.declanwalsh As of 2005]], the fight had ended with the death of Levin.
[[/folder]]

'''''Khalas, shneychem, KHALAS!''[[note]]Enough, both of you, enough![[/note]] Look, ''achi''[[note]]bro[[/note]], while those two ''chofrim basechel''[[note]]talk too much in an annoying way; literally digging the mind[[/note]], you can compare LowerClassLout, BadassIsraeli, JewishComplaining…'''

*** It also ends up in [[UsefulNotes/{{Christianity}} Christian tradition]]: a good part of Literature/TheFourGospels records UsefulNotes/{{Jesus}} arguing with Pharisees, and even with his own disciples, about the correct interpretations and applications of the Law of Moses. In turn, Literature/TheActsOfTheApostles and the Epistles involve Paul arguing with other Jewish converts over whether gentile converts have to keep Torah, and the apostles getting into scraps with the Sanhedrin over whether it's permissible to preach in the name of Jesus.

*** It also ends up in Christian tradition: a good part of the gospels is about Jesus arguing with Pharisees. A good part of the epistles is about Paul arguing with other Jewish converts(over whether gentile converts have to keep Torah).

'''''Zeh ''Tropes'' shel ashkenazim be-amerika, ya ben zona!''[[note]]These are American Ashkenazi tropes, you son of a bitch![[/note]] You americans all think that [[WeAllLiveInAmerica all Jews are exactly like the]] [[JewishAndNerdy Nebbish]], [[AllJewsAreAshkenazi Ashkenazi]] ''frayerim''[[note]]suckers, though with a much more negative connotation compared to the US[[/note]] you call Jews…'''

** The show once sent correspondent Wyatt Cenac to a Jewish rest home in Florida to talk about the 2008 election. Eventually, the group interviews degenerated into such a morass of argument (over the issue of what to order for dessert) that [[http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/mon-july-21-2008/baruch-obama Cenac was left sitting on the sidelines]], [[OffTheRails genuinely stunned.]]

** The show once sent correspondent Wyatt Cenac to a Jewish rest home in Florida to talk about the 2008 election. Eventually, the group interviews degenerated into such a morass of argument (over the issue of what to order for dessert) that [[http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/mon-july-21-2008/baruch-obama Cenac was left sitting on the sidelines, genuinely stunned.]]

'''''Khalas, shneychem, KHALAS!''[[note]]Enough, both of you, enough![[/note]] Look, ''achi''[[note]]bro[[/note]], while these two ''chofrim basechel''[[note]]talk too much in an annoying way; literally digging the mind[[/note]], you can compare LowerClassLout, BadassIsraeli, JewishComplaining…'''

'''Um… while those two are going at it, compare JewishMother, AlterKocker, PassiveAggressiveKombat, JewishComplaining.'''

''And what would ''you'' know from comparisons, anyway?''

** As recorded in the Talmud, there's also a story of Rabbi Eliezer ben Hyrcanus, a prominent (and ''extremely'' conservative) Roman era rabbi, trying to convince the Sanhedrin that he was in the right about a particular kind of oven being impervious to Levitical uncleanness. Even when overruled, he managed to call on various signs from the natural world (trees, a stream, the beams of the Sanhedrin building) to show he was in the right. Each time, the Sanhedrin ''dismissed the sign'' as the sign-bearer do not innately have the qualifications to comment on Jewish law. Finally, Eliezer beseeched ''God himself'' to step in...which he ''did'', identifying Eliezer as correct about the oven being tamei-proof. Cue the Sanhedrin head ''rebuking God for this'', even quoting Deuteronomy to the effect that the demands of the law put jurisdiction ''only'' among the rabbis; "it is not in the heavens". Let that sink in; the rabbis ''[[RefugeInAudacity dismissed]] '''[[DidYouJustPunchOutCthulhu God]]''' [[RefugeInAudacity for overstepping his legal bounds]]''. Best part? Immediately afterwards, at the throne of Heaven, God was ''laughing with delight'', saying "My children have defeated me, my children have defeated me!".

[[folder: ComicBooks]]

[[folder: Fan Works]]
* FanFic/AngelOfTheBat features [[BigBad The Seraphim]] and [[spoiler: his older brother, Joshua]]. Both are ethnically (though not religiously) Jewish, hate one another and The Seraphim keeps him alive in the hopes of one day breaking his spirit and converting him to his cause.

[[folder: Film]]

[[folder: Jokes]]
* A Jewish congregation was arguing over whether one should stand or sit during the Shema Yisroel. Half of the congregation said one should sit, the other half insisted one should stand. Every time the Shema was recited they shouted at each other, “Sit down!” and “Stand up!” The fighting became so bad that the congregation was split in two, each half contending that they knew the tradition in that synagogue.\\
\\
Finally, the rabbi decided to visit a one hundred year old member of the synagogue who was living in a nursing home. He took a delegation from each of the arguing sides with him to see the oldest member of the “shul”. “Now, tell us,” said the rabbi, “what is our tradition?” “Should we stand during the Shema?” “No,” said the old man. “That is not our tradition.” “Well, then,” said the rabbi, “should we sit during the Shema?” “No,” the old man, “that is not our tradition.” “But we need to know what to do,” said the rabbi, “because our congregation members are fighting among each other.” “That,” said the oldest member of the congregation, “that is our tradition.” (This version of the joke [[http://jbuff.com/c110101.htm from here.]])

[[folder: Literature]]
* In ''Literature/{{Discworld}}'' Dwarfs are often compared to real life Jews (this was not the author's original intention but he [[AscendedFanon seems to be running with it]].) One of the main reasons? They argue a lot, especially about their faith. As Cheery Littlebottom says in ''The Fifth Elephant'':
-->"Dwarfs are very argumentative. Of course, many wouldn't agree."

[[folder: LiveActionTV]]

* ''Series/{{Seinfeld}}'' features a great deal of very Jewy arguments over the trivialities of day-to-day life. Jerry is Jewish and, according to {{Word of God}}, George is half Jewish on his mother's side.

[[folder: Religion and Mythology]]

[[folder: StandUpComedy]]
* SusieEssman once speculated that if she and her mother were hiding from the Nazis like AnneFrank was, holed up in an attic without being able to make any noise at all, ever, her mother would get them all killed by bitching about a dish not being properly washed.
* BorschtBelt comedy is full of argument-centered humor. All references to the comic's spouse will be about how they constantly fight and don't get along.
* Creator/JonStewart claimed in one of his stand-up shows that the old "Jews control the banks" conspiracy couldn't possibly work, because nobody would ever agree on where to have dinner, let alone control all the world's financial institutions.
--> (in an authoritative voice) All right, the Jewish meeting to control the banks will now commence. (in a grouchy voice) Hey, who died and made ''you'' king? Never mind me. I'm no one here. I have no opinions.
[[/folder]]

[[folder: Theatre]]
* ''Theatre/FiddlerOnTheRoof'', especially Tevye and Golde. Occasionally, Tevye and {{God}}!

** Most notably in [[http://youtu.be/gRdfX7ut8gw?t=5m1s this]] clip.
* "Four Jews In A Room Bitching" is the title of the opening number of ''Theatre/{{Falsettos}}''.

-->'''Consul''': It is with some reluctance I find myself agreeing with a Jew in anything--\\
'''Moe''': Well, us Jews has got so many different points of view it ain't always avoidable--

[[folder: WebComics]]

[[folder: WebOriginal]]

[[folder: WesternAnimation]]
* Jackie Mason as Rabbi Krustofsky on ''WesternAnimation/TheSimpsons''.

''"You think TVTropes is good for you? [[TVTropesWillRuinYourLife Well it isn't!]]"''

''"You think TVTropes is good for you? [[TVTropesWillRuinYouLife Well it isn't!]]"''

* Fractious of the WhateleyUniverse also has obsessive-compulsive disorder, so she can't keep from arguing, even with her friends. Still, given that one of her friends has the codename Loophole...

* In ''Webcomic/EverydayHeroes'', father and son are both lawyers, [[http://www.webcomicsnation.com/eddurd/everydayheroes/series.php?view=single&ID=173833 reviewing a difficult case.]]

* "Four Jews In A Room Bitching" is the title of the opening number of ''MarchOfTheFalsettos''.

Um, okay... For whatever reason, Jews and arguing go together like Passover and matzah.

Hey, I'm trying. Give me a break. This probably has to do with the layout of the Literature/{{Talmud}}, which contains a whole lot of back-and-forth arguments, arguments about what other people are arguing about, and often not even a resolution to the arguments (Or an argument if there is an argument or not...).

...I have no idea what that means. Anyway, this is a joke [[SelfDeprecation more common among Jews themselves]] than among gentiles [non-Jews]. Such conversations are generally (in fiction) liberally peppered with YiddishAsASecondLanguage.

Shut up! You don't know what I have to go through ''every day'' to...

'''Um... while those two are going at it, compare JewishMother, AlterKocker, PassiveAggressiveKombat, JewishComplaining.'''

** There's also a story of Rabbi Eliezer ben Hyrcanus, a prominent (and ''extremely'' conservative) Roman era rabbi, trying to convince the Sanhedrin that he was in the right about a particular kind of oven being impervious to Levitical uncleanness. Even when overruled, he managed to call on various signs from the natural world (trees, a stream, the beams of the Sanhedrin building) to show he was in the right. Each time, the Sanhedrin ''dismissed the sign'' as the sign-bearer stepping outside of its jurisdiction. Finally, Eliezer beseeched ''God himself'' to step in...which he ''did'', identifying Eliezer as correct about the oven being tamei-proof. Cue the Sanhedrin head ''rebuking God for this'', even quoting Deuteronomy to the effect that the demands of the law put jurisdiction ''only'' among the rabbis; "it is not in the heavens". Let that sink in; the rabbis ''[[RefugeInAudacity dismissed]] '''[[DidYouJustPunchOutCthulhu God]]''' [[RefugeInAudacity for overstepping his legal bounds]]''. Best part? Immediately afterwards, at the throne of Heaven, God was ''laughing with delight'', saying "My children have defeated me, my children have defeated me!".